% of tone - hands vs. rig.

[Markedman]

% of tone - hands vs. rig. I'm a well known guitarist in my area so I'm often asked to get up and play a few songs with the band, whether it's at a bar or party, you never have to ask me twice, so I carry my Mark IV and a pretty nice MIM strat with active emg's with me so I don't look like fumble-fingers. I also have a Taylor 314 acoustic that I keep with me, I really loved to play. Sometimes I don't have my rig with me and have to use the guitar and amp that is there and it's always a roll of the dice as far as what set-up any guitar rig will have but I can not get over what some guitar players will settle for. When you think about a guitar's tone, there's strings, string height, pick-ups, wood type, body shape, neck attachment, even type of finish that affects guitar sound, then add in cables/effects then amp, which is also a huge consideration - tube vs. SS, speaker type/size/cabinet, manufacturer, year made, etc., also, you have to hope the rig is O.K. the way it's set because no one wants you fidgeting with their settings. I'm spoiled, the notes really jump off my Jackson through my Mark III with the boogafunk EV's, and I'm good with the effect pedals I like to use. Years went into developing my perfect tone. When I'm forced to use anyone else's rig I still sound like myself, only not as good as if I had my rig, whether my Mark II, III, IV or Marshall/Studio pre-amp. I would say I sound twice as good with my rig verses the average off-the-shelf what have you rig. I'm thinking it's around 75% hands, 25% rig for me, how about you? P.S, Playing a bad acoustic can make anyone look like a hack!

 

[MrMarkIII]

Yup, once you've been at it a few beers, I mean years, you pretty much have the gear dialed in. Jeez, whenever I use someone else's guitar, I can't get the thing to stay in tune. I sound so much better on my own gear, adjusted by me, to my own "special needs".
Booteek stuff may sometimes sound better (says who?), but for me, too many bells and whistles means heading for the easy-to-dial-in Boss widget available at the local supermarket of sound. I don't need that overly complicated sh!t messin' with my head, y'all.
The small but extremely intelligent and perceptive circle of friends that follow our band seem to enjoy what I do, regardless if it's Strat, Tele or Les Paul, or if it's the Mark III combo, Thiele cab with head, or the Twin reissue.
Tube Screamer, Marshall-in-a-Box, it's all the same.
Sadly, I am unable to coax anything but myself out of even the most expensive gear.
The cement, as they say, has dried.

 

[screamingdaisy]

A few years ago I listened to two recordings of me playing the same song a few years apart on totally different rigs. What really stood out was that despite the differences I sounded more or less the same, and what dawned on me is that while one rig produced the sound naturally with zero effort the other was a constant battle that had me swapping pickups, pedals, speakers, etc on a regular basis trying to nail down perfection.

I quickly sold the rig that was the constant battle and rebuilt my previous rig.

Long story short, I don't know what % is hands vs rig... but I do know that some things will get me there easier than others.

 

[YellowJacket]

75% hands 25% rig. And, if you exclude poorly set up / poor quality gear, the equation begins to favour the hands even more.

Like everyone here says about Mesa amps, they are fine tuned and highly specialized musical instruments that demand the hands get better.

 

[gonzo]

listen to "spanish fly", off of Van Halen II


he's playing on a cheap yamaha Nylon acoustic guitar.


sounds exactly like van halen.

and it's not even an amp.
LOL

 

[talltxguy]

So if you could give (fill in blank with your guitar hero) the worst, crappiest rig in the world while you were given your choice of any gear, would you sound better than your hero?

Hate to say it, but I still think Eric Johnson would whoop me. :lol: That reminds me...it's time to practice some more.

 

[ryjan]

Where you're standing in relation to the speakers makes more difference than any part of you gear can make.
Once I discovered this I've been very happy with my guitar and amp and worry only about my technique. I don't even know (or care) what brand of tubes I use anymore. :lol: Anyone asks I say "newer ones".

 

[TimeSignature]

"Tone" is pretty much 99 percent gear (strings, picks, amps, guitars, etc) and about 1 percent hands/ player. Just talking tone and nothing else. EVH may sound like EVH through a crappy nylon string guitar because of style and the way he plays. Or am I missing the question?

 

[gonzo]

some folks (ted nugent historically comes to mind) thinks that the 'magic box' is what makes it happen.


in the early days, when VH was opening for the Nuge, he reportedly asked eddie where the secret box was.....
eddie let him play his rig, and it sounded exactly like ted nugent.




all gear does, is help you get closer to that voice you want, the one you hear in your head...

but the way you physically play the guitar, is reality.

sustain, yea....
distortion, yea.....

the amp does most of that...
but most folks can't tell the difference between distorted tones..
but they recognize choice of note

and vibrato

and bends, and holds, and the pauses, and the energy, the pick attack, all of that stuff.



yea, VH sounds the same on cheap nylon acoustic, as he basically does thru a raging marshall.

you instantly know who you are listening to.

 

[barfly]

"Tone" is pretty much 99 percent gear (strings, picks, amps, guitars, etc) and about 1 percent hands/ player. Just talking tone and nothing else. EVH may sound like EVH through a crappy nylon string guitar because of style and the way he plays. Or am I missing the question?

+1 I think most people confuse a players' style with tone. I had Brian Mays' starfleet project with eddie van halen. His tone, in my opinion sounded like *****. nothing like his vh records. Thin. You could totally tell it was him due to his unique style and skill though. And tone aside, I enjoyed his performance. If tone was from your fingers who the hell would need to buy any killer gear like mesa, marshall etc? You could just buy a crappy (insert amp here) and be done with it. To sum it up.. Style comes from your fingers (brain, soul and more), tone comes from the sum of all parts of your gear. Just one mans' opinion. Talk amongst yourselves.

 

[R_ADKINS80]

Finally.....more dudes on the same "gear = tone/hands = technique" page as me. Granted, that there is a point where the playing is so bad that the gear sounds like ****.

 

[THTH]

The gear is what makes the nuances created by the hands and brains of players special. Crappy sounding and incorrectly set up gear is not inspiring to the experienced and talented player. Sure I can sound like myself identity wise with a subpar amp and guitar, but it's not going to sound the way it does when using excellent gear. That's why great players use great gear if they can afford to - to show their talent and years of playing expertise. Hands 70%, Gear 30%.

 

[MkIII Renegade]

There is definitely a positive psychological effect when I crank my MkIII, because I know the tone is going to be legendary and I'll be at my best. I'm not inspired nearly as much by most other amps without similar characteristics. The meaty Mesa midrange simply boosts my confidence more. And when you're digging your tone, you play better. 8)

I'd say gear is more important when talking about acoustics than electrics, because enough gain can hide deficiencies when playing electric, but a horribly setup acoustic guitar is a dread to play. I recall last Christmas that I played my (non-guitar playing) cousin's acoustic for the fun of it----it was the kind of low grade acoustic that non-guitarists keep around to strum once every 2 years or so---and I simply couldn't make it happen like I know I'm capable of with at least a medium grade or better acoustic. But I can get something halfway decent out of even the most horrid electric guitar/amp.

 

[Markedman]

I bought a totally mint Mesa road ready 4X12 with all EV's yesterday, that upped the ante from 75/25 to 70% hands/30% gear. Best tone ever. My drummer made a couple of good points to sway my opinion about this question, like how much effort I put into my playing and my relentless pursuit of grailtone, he said that even he sounds awesome through my rig! My gear makes me the guitar player I am. I really need my gear or I pretty much suck. I usually sound as bad as the guy who owns the gear. Even if I walk into Guitar Center and grab a decent ax and play through a good amp I'm only 90% +/-, I need my perfectly set up guitar, Mark amp and EV speakers to rule. I can't "Wow" anybody without it. This new cab is so incredible it is worth lugging around just to see the jaws drop to the floor as the notes zing off my guitar effortlessly, now that's what I'm talking about, it feels good when people remember you in the market or at the Bank because you had it, 100% grailtone. The road ready cab is a Marshall killer with the Mk. III head. I was a Marshall guy for 34 years, still have and use my first real guitar, a 1955 strat and my first stack, a 1972 Marshall 100 watt stack. It goes to show, you're never to old to learn something new, and I didn't start playing guitar to be a slacker and sound sucky like the other 99.99%, I am fully committed and I play to entertain. To quote Montgomery Burns from "The Simpsons", "I'd trade it all, for a little more." http://www.flickr.com/photos/100168049@N04/10282467656/

 

[Jackie]

I think that hands contribute "cleanliness" to the actual SOUND, nothing more. Like I can instantly spot a player who's never played a hi-gain tube head before, there's lots of schlop around the note, the guitar squeals, hisses etc. As others have pointed out, I think what you play and how you play it is a matter of technique, music - that's what the hands play part in, not actual tone.

Case in point? Set up the most amazing tone you can come up with and record it. Sounds great! Throw your guitar out of tune, record again. Doesn't sound so great now, does it? :mrgreen:

The only thing that I think might be an actual tonal factor when hands come up, is how hard you hit. I have very "deep" palm mutes, like I really choke the fuk out of the strings and hit them hard. Our band's other guitarist tends to play more lightly. We swapped rigs once in rehearsal for fun, and boy did that sound wrong... My heavy hitting generated too much bass and flubbed out his ENGL completely, while his lighter playing made my Marshall sound like a tin can.

That said, when I play well, I sound good and I do tend to be inspired more. Which in turn makes me even better. That makes me sound even better. Like a positive cycle. The other side of that story is that when I have a "bad" day, I tend to be demotivated and I suck even more. Making me sound worse. Negative circle. Something like that

 

[masque]

the cake is the hands and the icing is the gear.

 

[boogieman60]

I say 50/50..My teacher used to tell Me "A good guitar player can make anything sound good" Sound is all about touch..But I have to say the V reproduces things I never knew were there...

 

[KiwiJoe]

I don't know if I could break it down into percentages. All I can say is that it's a combination of both.

One example that always comes to mind for me in these discussions is Larry Carlton, specifically, his solo in Steely Dan's "Kid Charlemagne." It was right about that time, 1976, that he had gotten his Boogie Mark I that can be seen in the videos of The Crusaders gig at the Montreux Jazz Festival in '76, so I figured that is what he used on those tracks from The Royal Scam album recorded the same year. His sound had that bite, a sort of mid-range quack that makes the notes jump off the tape like the Mark I was famous for. Man, was I shocked to find out that he was using a dimed Tweed Deluxe on Kid Charlemagne. It sounded just like Carlton.

So, in the gear/hands/technique debate, I think that guys who have "their own sound," a sound they hear in their head, tend to set-up whatever gear they have at the time to get as close to that sound as they can. In Carlton's case, he sounds not the same, but very, very similar whether he's using a Tweed Deluxe, and Twin with a Distortion + (his early Crusaders sound), a Mark I, a Dumble, and now his Bludo. Hell, I've seen a clip of him on Austin City Limits playing through a Peavey, and he sounds, well, like...Larry Carlton.

I think that unless it's absolute shiite gear, the better players will be able to get the most out of any piece of gear and sound very similar to how they sound when using their ideal rig.

 

[Heritage Softail]

I think that hands contribute "cleanliness" to the actual SOUND, nothing more. Like I can instantly spot a player who's never played a hi-gain tube head before, there's lots of schlop around the note, the guitar squeals, hisses etc. As others have pointed out, I think what you play and how you play it is a matter of technique, music - that's what the hands play part in, not actual tone.

Case in point? Set up the most amazing tone you can come up with and record it. Sounds great! Throw your guitar out of tune, record again. Doesn't sound so great now, does it? :mrgreen:

The only thing that I think might be an actual tonal factor when hands come up, is how hard you hit. I have very "deep" palm mutes, like I really choke the fuk out of the strings and hit them hard. Our band's other guitarist tends to play more lightly. We swapped rigs once in rehearsal for fun, and boy did that sound wrong... My heavy hitting generated too much bass and flubbed out his ENGL completely, while his lighter playing made my Marshall sound like a tin can.

That said, when I play well, I sound good and I do tend to be inspired more. Which in turn makes me even better. That makes me sound even better. Like a positive cycle. The other side of that story is that when I have a "bad" day, I tend to be demotivated and I suck even more. Making me sound worse. Negative circle. Something like that

True. Tone is bass and treble! The word is so misused it means everything or nothing.

Hands play the guitar, set the amp, add the personal mojo. Once you have decent gear, it is all the player knowing how to use it. Great illustration you gave.

 

[carbenez]

I agree with some of the previous posters (and have answered this question the same way for years) that a players STYLE comes from the head heart and hands... the notes you play, the nuances, vibrato, attack...all of these things are elements of playing style that don't deviate with the equipment. That's why players sound like themselves on different rigs - they are recognizable not necessarily for the TONE they get but because of the signature vocabulary they have created with their individualized technique.

Tone comes from the gear you play. If you think TONE is all from the hands, play some air guitar and tell me what it sounds like Now of course a players STYLE (pick attack, muting, vibrato, etc) can and does influence tone....but a player's signature TONE (not playing style) is usually tied to a few pieces of gear. Anyone think Eddie sounded the same with 5150's as he did with the magic marshall??? Yes, the NOTES he played were the same - but sonically it was miles away.

Here's a thought experiment....give Eddie a telecaster and a bone clean Fender and ask him to play "Unchained." While the notes will be there it ain't gonna sound right. Or, give Frank Vignola a Les Paul through a gained out Dual Recto and have him play some gypsy jazz. Again, the notes would be there but the sound would be (to a gypsy jazz lover anyway) ridiculous.

We are getting into semantics here to some extent...but I think guitar players confuse Style and Tone. The two definitely influence each other but they are not the same thing!!!!

Peace