Rectoverb 25 Combo vs Roadster Combo

[screamingdaisy]

The irony here is that the more I f*ck around with different combinations of guitars and settings the more I'm starting to realize the Electra Dyne might actually be the better fit.

Or... it could be that all this messing with the Recto has me mentally exhausted and thus favouring the relative simplicity of the ED at the moment.

Only time will tell. :|

 

[YellowJacket]

The Electra Dyne is a sick amp! What are your settings on it? I find that bringing up the treble and mids while rolling back the lows really brings out some nice mid crunch!!

Are you thinking of running two of them? Lol!! :lol:

 

[screamingdaisy]

Gain - 1:15
Treb - 12:45
Mids - 11:00
Bass - 11:45
Pres - 12:00

The master is set to 9:00 and I'm using an EB volume in the loop to control the output. 45w mode.


I've thought about getting a head version for a long time because I wanted to use it with a 4x12/V30s (and lets face it, the ED head looks pretty f*cking sweet), but I'm growing to like the MC90 in the combo version that I have. It's taken me a long time to make peace with this speaker and I'm still not all the way there. The MC90 is one of those things that I've always kind of disliked at home yet sounds great with a band.

 

[dlpasco]

By the way, Screaming Daisy, in my experience, at least, the characteristic ice-pick issue of the Mark V is completely absent in the Mark V:25 head.

I use mine in the studio as a preamp thanks to the integrated can clone and drive it through the twin dual rectifier power amp rig I described above, but it sounds great using it's own power section, too.

 

[screamingdaisy]

By the way, Screaming Daisy, in my experience, at least, the characteristic ice-pick issue of the Mark V is completely absent in the Mark V:25 head.

I use mine in the studio as a preamp thanks to the integrated can clone and drive it through the twin dual rectifier power amp rig I described above, but it sounds great using it's own power section, too.

I've never had an issue with icepick out of the Mark V. I actually don't have any real complaints about the amp and it's served me really well, it just doesn't produce the sort of sound I'm after as well as the Recto or ED do.

As for the stereo options, while I like what you've done I don't want to get into anything that complicated. Generally, I'm just running a Y split into the input of both amps and putting a delay in the loop of one of them. It's literally just two amps sitting side by side. I like having a lot of flexibility and don't like being tied down by presets.

 

[dlpasco]

As for the stereo options, while I like what you've done I don't want to get into anything that complicated. Generally, I'm just running a Y split into the input of both amps and putting a delay in the loop of one of them. It's literally just two amps sitting side by side. I like having a lot of flexibility and don't like being tied down by presets.

Totally - my first stab at this was using my stereo flanger, disengaged, as a splitter for exactly that set up. Works pretty well as it is, for sure.

Keeping posting this stuff, please. It's informative as hell and its great to see what other people are doing. I solidly agree with your assessment of Thayil's setup and love hearing you on perspective on things like that.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Honestly, I think I'm done with analyzing Soundgarden; now I'm experimenting with my own sound again and seeing how I can integrate some of this new stuff, seeing what sticks and what does't.

I've definitely learned a lot for it. Over the last few years I've purposely tried to not analyze my sound in great detail. About a decade ago I got sucked down the boutique rabbit hole and spent a small fortune trying to buy perfection. I literally spent hours - and days - and weeks - standing in front of my cabs playing the same riffs while trying to dial in the perfect power chord... only to stand in some other spot and find out it sounded slightly different... and to plug in the next day and find things didn't sound right at all and start all over again.

About four years ago I decided enough was enough. I divested most of the boutique stuff, plugged back into a Dual Rectifier and just played music. If the sound was off and really started to bother me, I'd switch amps instead of tweaking settings.

These days most of my kit is bone stock. I only buy off the shelf gear and I've tried to avoid all thoughts of modifying things. As such, this is the first time in a few years I've really sat down and tweaked/experimented with my sound in any great detail. I think I've made some improvements for it. Since about 2009 I've generally focused about 99% of my time on a single guitar, but I'm going to open things back up again and set up a few different guitars for different sounds.

One thing I think I will have to give in on is that I'm going to need to start modifying guitars and swapping pickups. I've been using various PAF type pickups for a number of years now, and while I really like the sweet sound and feel with lower gain settings they don't hold together with higher gain. Specifically, not enough midrange for the amp to work with. I've tried EQ'ing around it, but past a certain point things start to sound weird/artificial. For that reason I'm putting away the Rectifier for a bit... I think I've reached the limits of what I can get out of it with the pickups I'm currently using.

On that note, I think I'm going to spend the next month using nothing but the Electra Dyne. Now that I've found a nice baseline sound that I dig I want to really work with it to see what I can extract from it.

 

[YellowJacket]

RE: Pickups, guitars, and modifications. Look into Bare Knuckle Pickups. I find the clarity is great for working with Mesas. Great clarity, articulation, and String Separation.

Start with a Rebel Yell set for a LP. You may find you need to pair the Rebel Yell bridge with a slightly less bassy neck pickup for a production LP but it should be fine with a custom shop instrument. The Rebel Yell is tight, clear, and articulate, even under mountains of gain.

In my situation, I was dealing with a production off the shelf LP that has a boomy neck and a thin sounding bridge. I went with a Rebel Yell neck and an Alnico Nailbomb bridge in that guitar. The A-Bomb bridge is raunchy, hairy, and growly sounding. It really excites the Electra Dyne in a great way.

Apparently the Mule neck / Riff Raff bridge set is nice.

Anyhow, listen through what is on the BKP site demo wise. It's hard to know if you want a big, loose low end, or a high, tight one. I prefer an articulate tone with lots of clarity and string separation for complex chord voicings. I know this isn't the same thing everyone wants.

 

[screamingdaisy]

It's hard to know if you want a big, loose low end, or a high, tight one. I prefer an articulate tone with lots of clarity and string separation for complex chord voicings. I know this isn't the same thing everyone wants.

I think I was recommended the Rebel Yell and Cold Sweat by Tim years ago. At the time BKP was just becoming known and I was looking for something that was similar to a Super Distortion (Cold Sweat). I think he recommended the Rebel Yell neck, but it's been so long that I could be remembering things wrong.

My only real issue with going BKP is that I've never liked any of the Alnico V humbuckers I've tried. Conversely, I've liked every Alnico II pickup I've tried and almost every ceramic pickup I've tried. BKPs A2 range limits me to more of what I already have. By the time the output gets ramped up a bit he's already into A5. I've been curious about the Mules for years but I've never tried A4 thus don't know how it'll feel. If I could find them locally I probalby would've had a set by now, but that hasn't been the case.

One of my Les Pauls currently has Lollar Imperial Highwinds. Overwound Alnico II PAFs (8.4k and 9.4k). The sound is thick in the mids with a rolled off top and bottom end response. They have a thicker, smoother 70s hard rock sound and are probably similar to the BKP VHII or Black Dogs, although A2 vs A5.

What I'm looking for with this specific Les Paul is to retain the old school (bright/edgy) PAF sound I'm getting with the stock Burstbuckers (1 & 2), but a bit fuller in the midrange so that it holds together better with higher gain. The problem I have at the moment is that they're a little too scooped, so when I dial the amp's bass back the sound looses all body because there isn't enough midrange present to fill in the gap, yet boosting the mids on the amp sounds artificial and actually reduces clarity.

What I'm leaning towards right now is a set of Seymour Duncan Slash signatures, which based on various descriptions I've read have more mids of a higher wind while still retaining the brighter response of a traditional PAF. Plus, they were specifically designed for modern CS Les Pauls and higher gain settings.

And, if they don't work out I'll try something else.

 

[afu]

Keeping posting this stuff, please. It's informative as hell and its great to see what other people are doing. I solidly agree with your assessment of Thayil's setup and love hearing your on perspective on things like that.

I like both of the info you guys bring to the table. I hope you both keep posting good stuff.

Also, dlpasco, that setup is AMAZING!

 

[afu]

In regards to pickups, I really like Duncans. The Slash pickup uses Alnico 2 and I think that makes it sort of softer, doesn't it? He's the type to let the amp do the work and boost it when needed. Oh, wait. That sounds like you.

For future use, the Whole Lotta Humbucker and Custom 5 have my attention. Custom 5 has muscle, but the mids aren't cranked and highs are pretty clear. The offset between coils seems to make the relative phase of mids cancel with anything that tries to be a PAF-style pup, even a hot one.

I also like the Gibson Burstbucker 3 and think it's one heck of pickup.

I've modded my JB, but it had mids for DAYS when it was wired like stock.

 

[dlpasco]

Keeping posting this stuff, please. It's informative as hell and its great to see what other people are doing. I solidly agree with your assessment of Thayil's setup and love hearing your on perspective on things like that.

I like both of the info you guys bring to the table. I hope you both keep posting good stuff.

Also, dlpasco, that setup is AMAZING!

Thank you!

My friend Ben and I just posted a new episode of our podcast and it includes audio samples of the rig. It's worth checking out if you're interested http://vibrato.fm/15.

The setup walk through happens at about the five minute mark.

 

[afu]

Thank you!

My friend Ben and I just posted a new episode of our podcast and it includes audio samples of the rig. It's worth checking out if you're interested http://vibrato.fm/15.

The setup walk through happens at about the five minute mark.

Nice. The Les Paul sounds good. I am listening with CAD headphones and the patches were coming in at slightly different spots in stereo. All the sounds were cool. I think I'd be mixing the Mark and Recto sounds together a lot. The Mark Crunch with the Tremoverb Red or Dual Orange would be sweet. This makes me want to go get a switcher when I get the next amp.

 

[screamingdaisy]

been using various PAF type pickups for a number of years now, and while I really like the sweet sound and feel with lower gain settings they don't hold together with higher gain. Specifically, not enough midrange for the amp to work with. I've tried EQ'ing around it, but past a certain point things start to sound weird/artificial. For that reason I'm putting away the Rectifier for a bit... I think I've reached the limits of what I can get out of it with the pickups I'm currently using.

The problem I have at the moment is that they're a little too scooped, so when I dial the amp's bass back the sound looses all body because there isn't enough midrange present to fill in the gap, yet boosting the mids on the amp sounds artificial and actually reduces clarity.

Learned a couple of things over the last week or so...

My first problem was NYXL strings. I started using them about 6 weeks ago as an experiment. At the time I liked them because I heard some grinding in the midrange that I liked. In hindsight, they're too bright and bassy and kind of lack midrange. It took me awhile to figure out it was the strings. The more critically I listened to the amp, the more hollow the midrange. I thought my strings were going dead so I installed a new set of NYXL with no change. Cut the new strings off and installed a set of Gibson Vintage strings (pure nickel wrap) and the midrange came back and the treble solidified.

My second problem was Dunlop Pitch Black picks. While putting Gibson strings back on the guitar was a marked improvement to the midrange the guitar was still a touch too scooped and I was still getting a bit of low end bloat. Today, I didn't have a Pitch Black handy and grabbed a regular Tortex. More aggressive mids and no low end bloat. I spent awhile cycling picks through different amps/channels.... the difference in sound is so minor that I question whether or not I'm actually hearing what I think I'm hearing, but the results were consistent. The Pitch Black has a slightly duller attack that rounds off the note and accentuates the bottom end. The coloured Tortex picks (Yellow, Green and Purple) have a harder attack that drives more midrange into the note, which while they don't reduce the low end the results sound more balanced, thus no more boom on the low E.

 

[afu]

LOL. Some similar issues lately.

I had to reset my guitar for cold weather a couple of weeks back and it was ok, but my hands are affected by rheumatoid arthritis to the point that I really have to get my setups just right to even play. It has been giving me problems and I just couldn't take it any more.

Today I switched to Super Slinky 9s. They're somewhat brighter/thinner sounding and the feel changed to butter. I got it set up just about perfect. I can play a little easier anyhow. I found myself lowering presence and puling up bass just a touch. It sounds tighter to me and the downsizing didn't seem to hurt the tone too much. I tune down to a whole step on all my strings, so I'm somewhere into Jimmy Page territory with the tension.

The other thing is that I came across an old bunch of picks, including some EBE, and decided to give it a go. They're plastic, medium thickness, and pretty flexible. I was plinking with it, literally. I usually use 1.14 Dunlop Ultex picks. They are molded to a sharp point, are dang-near indestructible and imitate tortoise shell with a synthetic material. When I swapped back to Ultex, it was so much easier to vary pressure and the notes regained their weight. The funny thing is, the molding and material gives a cutting attack, but the weight really add some oomph to the notes. I don't have to pick nearly as firm with a heavy pick. It does a lot of the work.

Plus the pick is large, Turning it around and using the back of it retains the force without the cut.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Today I switched to Super Slinky 9s. They're somewhat brighter/thinner sounding and the feel changed to butter. I got it set up just about perfect. I can play a little easier anyhow. I found myself lowering presence and puling up bass just a touch. It sounds tighter to me and the downsizing didn't seem to hurt the tone too much. I tune down to a whole step on all my strings, so I'm somewhere into Jimmy Page territory with the tension.

When I got my current Les Paul it was supposed to be set up for 11-50 as that's what I preferred. Unbenownst to me, it was setup with 10-46. It played and sounded great, although I suspected they used the wrong gauge strings. When it was time for new strings I restrung it with 11-50 and it sounded worse. Normally I prefer the thicker strings for the more piano like tone they give, but on this guitar they just sounded dull, and I lost the big-tele like twang the 10s had.

Sometimes the smallest things make a big difference.

 

[screamingdaisy]

So... After ditching the NYXL strings, going back to a Tortex pick and sorting my guitar out I decided to plug back into my Mark V... and it sounds awesome again.

I was going to turf it because I hated the thin, harsh sound it'd developed... but it turns out it was the guitar. Now that it's sorted the amp just screams, so I think I'll keep it.


And... On a side note: 40 foot cables. Over time I keep hearing artists mention 40 foot cables. Warren Haynes, Slash, Bonamassa, etc. All guys using Les Pauls with PAFs. Well, I tried it today and the midrange just exploded out of the speakers.

I went back and forth between 20 and 40 feet a bunch of times just to confirm what I'm hearing, and I even shut the amp off and took a few hour break a couple of times to give my ears a rest, but it's definelty there, and it's not something I could replicate by rolling the tone down with a 20 foot cable. I know cable capitence interacts with a passive humbucker to lower the resonant peak, and this seemed to shift the peak to some frequency where it added punch.

The results aren't entirely without drawbacks. The rolled off top end makes the guitar far more honky, I can't add edge into my sound on the fly as my tone is already wide open and it gets dark really fast when try to clean up the amp by rolling back the volume, but I'm going to try to work with this a bit to see what I can come up with.

 

[afu]

http://www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/volumepots/bleed5.gif

I use that mod to keep brightness when rolling volume back. It does two things: 1) The resistor doesn't change your pot taper, because of the cap; 2) The two components set the frequency knee and the pot is just a divider (like normal).

The only drawback over stock I can think of is that you seem to lose bass as you roll back past 8 instead of treble. It depends on what a person wants, I guess. Mine is set around 800 Hz, to be somewhat balanced as the bass comes out.

That circuit is the same as the Output on a 3 Ch Recto or a Roadster/Roadking, btw. So, you know what this circuit does, but Mesa uses a higher frequency knee than a guitar volume would.

 

[screamingdaisy]

The guitar (Les Paul) is currently wired 50s style. I want to stick with this method... at least for now.

Speaking of treble bleed... awhile ago I was reading a thread where someone commented on Andy Timmons Mark V video Mesa put up on youtube. He stated that Andy's lead tone was always just on the verge of being too muddy... and not that it was a bad thing, but that it was a characteristic of his lead tone that many find so desirable. I've been trying to embrace that.

Santana was another one that I read about years ago. According to the story he was being sound checked for a TV gig, using a wireless to reach his amps off stage and sounded like ****. Eventually his guitar tech wound up tying 50 feet of cable to his belt behind his back, then fed that into the wireless. It fixed his tone and he sounded like Santana.

Hendrix and SRV are two others that come to mind when it comes to using longer cables to bleed off top end and change the response of their pickups.

In the past Warren Haynes has said he likes the stock Dunlop wahs because their sh*tty bypass rolls off top end.

It makes me think.... when Marshall released the Slash AFD amp there was a lot of comments about how bright and thin it sounded. As I dial more top end into my current sound to compensate for the cable I wonder how an AFD would sound with 40 feet of cable feeding into it?

 

[Shemham]

The guitar (Les Paul) is currently wired 50s style. I want to stick with this method... at least for now.

Speaking of treble bleed... awhile ago I was reading a thread where someone commented on Andy Timmons Mark V video Mesa put up on youtube. He stated that Andy's lead tone was always just on the verge of being too muddy... and not that it was a bad thing, but that it was a characteristic of his lead tone that many find so desirable. I've been trying to embrace that.

This 'on the edge of being muddy' tone sounds kinda like my approach. :lol:

I used to struggle getting the lead tone I heard in my head. First I mostly though the problem was my amp and cab. When I switched to Rectos, this misconstruction did not tail off thanks to all the talk bout Rectos being fizzy, unsuited for leads etc. I also used to try different pickups once in a while to see what difference it made. At one point I had BKP Blackdogs in my guitar which shifted the tone a bit closer to what I wanted.Although I liked it's dynamic and note separation, it was overly bright and too twangy to my preferences so I still ended up getting another pickup.

I read somewhere that using two rows of screws in a humbucker instead of poles and screws setup makes the pickup little beefier and darker. This finally helped me to understand that I didn't really want to have bright sound at the source. I wanted to have darker and rather flat signal from my guitar, which I could then make brighter on my amp. Therefore, all the treble bleeds, 50s wiring etc which helped to retain the highend when rolling the volume were totally against what I needed to have. I actually needed to have that drop in the highend.

I ordered a custom made pickup which was essentially PAF59 with Alnico V and two roles of screws. I instantly knew I was on the right tracks when I tried the pickup, rolled the tone and volume down a bit and tried to play leads.

Next I broke the rule which according to 250k pots is best with single coil pickups while 500k is best suited for humbuckers. Well, 250k much better for me. I got more dynamics (mor control) and more rolled off top end (equals fatter tone). Lower tone pot value was my next change. Initially I though it wouldn't make more difference than turning the tone pot down. I was surprised that it made similar change to my tone as the volume pot switch.

So the moral of the story? Don't always follow the common view, but try to experiment with rather unorthodox combinations to find YOUR tone, not the one everyone else has agreed on.