new member looking for some advice

[sgdfx30]

well, in all fairness, im less of a new member and more of a first time poster. anyway, i bought my 3ch dual rectifier (non reborn) about a year ago and to this day i am still madly in love with it. even a year later, i wake up every morning and i am always a bit shocked to see it sitting there and know that i own it. so you get the idea of how attached i am to it and how much id be against getting rid of it. but it seems that soon ill have to be moving from a house to an apartment and volume will be an issue. even though i run it at 50w through a 1X12 now, to get it to sound good it has to be at a volume that my new building would probably not appreciate. so i've been contemplating some options on what to do.

1. buy an attenuator. i really don't know much about them in terms of how it will affect the sound. people who have attenuators, are you happy with your sound at "mildly annoying your neighbors but not to the point of calling the cops" volume? they are a good deal of money and it seems like it would be a waste if they only sound mildly better than just running the loop on and lowering the output.

2. build a 1W or 5W power-amp and feed the dual's fx send into that and nothing back to its return. im not really sure if you can even do something like that... if you have no return, would you still need a dummy load for the recto's power section?

3. try to find a stupidly inefficient speaker. i believe most guitar speakers are around the 100db mark in that regard. so i'd need a 10-15db drop to really make a noticeable difference. not sure if any guitar speakers exist that are that inefficient and still sound good.

4. buy a cheap practice amp and just store my dual until i get back to a living situation where it is usable again. i really don't want to do this option... it really would suck some of the fun out of playing the guitar.

5. sell the dual and get a mini recto. iv never actually gotten to play on one cause every time i've hit guitar center their only one seems to have a tube blown. (3+ times) so i really have no idea if id even like it. and at this time i can't really afford to keep the dual and get the mini, it would have to be one or the other. but iv been hearing so much good stuff about the mini so it does have me wondering...

6. just play with the loop on output low and just stick it out for a year or so with crappy tone.

7. and lastly ??? some option i haven't thought to consider.

any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated. thanks.

 

[piggyboy]

for what its worth here are my thoughts, (i cant comment on all the options)
I would NOT swap it for a mini (unless you like the sound of the mini better), a mini is still real loud.
personally i would get a practice amp or go for attenuator/loop option. Keep the dual for times when you can play it at a resonable volume (maybe take it to friends/parents houses/garages, or cheap rehersal rooms) and enjoy it when you can. that way you'll still have it when you do get a place you can open it up more regularly. Even if you cant play it at all i'd still keep it (you love it!!) and look forward to a time when you can enjoy it again.
i think you'll regret it if you get rid of it. I know i would. I kept my marshall for a couple of years when i was living in a rented room. when i got my own place i got to redescover it again.


best wishes

 

[ken361]

the mini rec sounds really good at low or high volumes great amp imo, never played the big boy at low volumes so i cant comment.

 

[Anonymous]

I would seriously suggest modding it. Change the red gain pot to 1M and add a 5nF (500+V) cap going from the D power rail to ground, and you'll have one hell of a low volume tone! Should only take a couple of mins to do, it's totally reversible, and the sound and the feel of the amp at low volumes will be fantastic. Should get close to Pre-500 tone, though I haven't yet tried this with a 3-channel.

 

[screamingdaisy]

well, in all fairness, im less of a new member and more of a first time poster. anyway, i bought my 3ch dual rectifier (non reborn) about a year ago and to this day i am still madly in love with it. even a year later, i wake up every morning and i am always a bit shocked to see it sitting there and know that i own it. so you get the idea of how attached i am to it and how much id be against getting rid of it. but it seems that soon ill have to be moving from a house to an apartment and volume will be an issue. even though i run it at 50w through a 1X12 now, to get it to sound good it has to be at a volume that my new building would probably not appreciate. so i've been contemplating some options on what to do.

1. buy an attenuator. i really don't know much about them in terms of how it will affect the sound. people who have attenuators, are you happy with your sound at "mildly annoying your neighbors but not to the point of calling the cops" volume? they are a good deal of money and it seems like it would be a waste if they only sound mildly better than just running the loop on and lowering the output.

I didn't find attenuation worked all that great with a Recto. It's not that it doesn't do it's thing... it's more that I can get the Recto to sound just as good (or bad, depending on your perspective) by turning the master volume down as I could attenuating the volume way down.

The key is the speakers. An attenuated amp does just as poor a job of driving the speakers as an amp with the volume turned down.... and the speakers being driven are a big part of the crunchy sound we're looking for.

2. build a 1W or 5W power-amp and feed the dual's fx send into that and nothing back to its return. im not really sure if you can even do something like that... if you have no return, would you still need a dummy load for the recto's power section?

1w cranked up is more than enough to get you evicted, and 1w turned down still doesn't solve the issue of the speakers not being driven.

3. try to find a stupidly inefficient speaker. i believe most guitar speakers are around the 100db mark in that regard. so i'd need a 10-15db drop to really make a noticeable difference. not sure if any guitar speakers exist that are that inefficient and still sound good.

There are field coil speakers, but last I checked it was $800 for a single speaker and I don't know how good they sound.

4. buy a cheap practice amp and just store my dual until i get back to a living situation where it is usable again. i really don't want to do this option... it really would suck some of the fun out of playing the guitar.

Probably your best bet.

5. sell the dual and get a mini recto. iv never actually gotten to play on one cause every time i've hit guitar center their only one seems to have a tube blown. (3+ times) so i really have no idea if id even like it. and at this time i can't really afford to keep the dual and get the mini, it would have to be one or the other. but iv been hearing so much good stuff about the mini so it does have me wondering...

Will still be pretty loud when turned up, and when turned down you're still going to have to face the thin/buzzy low volume Recto sound.

6. just play with the loop on output low and just stick it out for a year or so with crappy tone.

Probably a good option too. One thing I found with apartments is that the bass frequencies are more trouble than the mids/treble. Getting the cab elevated off the ground (on a couch or bed) will reduce the amount of bass transferred into the floor/walls... which will piss off the neighbours a little less than if you had it sitting on the floor.

7. and lastly ??? some option i haven't thought to consider.

Emulation software for your computer with a set of headphones.


When it comes to practice rigs I like the headphone/laptop route. With a decent set of headphones it lets me crank up the volume and get some bottom end going on without disturbing others around me... which is way more satisfying than playing through some crappy practice amp with a 4 inch speaker.

Using computer software generally offers more tonal variety for less money when compared to a practice/modelling amp.

 

[sgdfx30]

thanks for all the responses guys. after mulling over this most of the day, iv decided that i just can't part with my dual. there is just something special about this one, and even if i got another one later it probably wont be the same.

screamingdaisy, i had never considered using computer modeling software, as that could be a really good solution. any recommendations on that front? hopefully computer modeling has come a good ways since the last time i ventured down that road as i just remember it being really digitally and tacky.

themagiceight, im also curious about the modding suggestion. could you elaborate on how that works a bit? even if i don't go that route, id just like to know for my own edification.

and i guess if i had thought about it, the 1W power amp would be too loud as you said. 1W through a speaker that has a 100db sensitivity is going to be 100db a meter away (duh)... that's still too loud to be playing in an apartment.

 

[boah78]

I'm sure I'm going to get hell for this, but buy a pod for home use... I've been there, done that. There is nothing you can do to use a real amp at apartment volumes that you will find satisfactory. I still break out my pod on occasion... They get a bad rap from lots of people, but they are fine... I tried to not like... thought my taste was "better than that" and I'd get rid of it once I was out of my apartment... I still have it, and still use it with a 2:90 as my 'backup' (which basically is just when I don't feel like carrying my "real" rig)

As far as I'm concerned, it's bad reputation comes from people who think they can just plug it straight into a computer and get a huge sound from it with no thought... It should just do it on it's own... No eq, or thought about making it fit... just plug it in and you're done. That's no more the case than putting a mic in front of a big sounding amp with no thought and expecting perfection. But there are plenty of VERY good sounds in it if you work with it and treat it like any other "amp"

 

[70 Cam Guy]

I've been happy with my Hot Plate. It lets me turn up the volumes enough it's not muffled and ditch most of the fizz. It's not a silver bullet but I feel like the before and after tones were worth the investment because I was in a situation before where I couldn't really turn it up.

Reality is a good modeler or software will sound good too. My buddy at work and I were talking a lot about that Yamaha THR10. It seems pretty versatile if price isn't too much of a barrier. It also includes Cubase and you can control the amp from your computer

 

[JW123]

Well your first and cheapest option is to just use the loop as a master volume, I do this with my triple all the time and it works well. This is a lot cheaper than buying an attenuater.And basically it accomplishs the same thing as an attenuator.

Someone mentioned a POD, I had a POD PRO rack unit that I bought a few years ago off of Criags List for $150, I see the kidney shaped ones on CL regularly for around $100. Just use it and some head phones, no its not the same as using your amp, but it does give you a lot of different amp models to experiment with, then you can try to emulate those tones on your rec, its a great recording tool also.

Good Luck, but whatever you do dont get rid of the rec, theres just nothing like them in my opinion.

 

[Anonymous]

Well your first and cheapest option is to just use the loop as a master volume, I do this with my triple all the time and it works well. This is a lot cheaper than buying an attenuater.And basically it accomplishs the same thing as an attenuator.

Sorry, that's not correct. You turn the amp way up with an attenuator and really work the output section. With the MV, the power tubes are barely being driven at all.

themagiceight, im also curious about the modding suggestion. could you elaborate on how that works a bit? even if i don't go that route, id just like to know for my own edification.

It's from this thread. Essentially, you're adding gain and focusing the low midrange a little bit, while tightening the amp considerably. It's kind of like using a boost, only there's no sacrifice.

Just search for the 3-channel Rectifier schematic and look at the D power rail and where it goes. Find some point where it's physically close to a grounding point in the amp (I'm not sure where as I'm not familiar enough with the 3-channel) and jump that point with the 5nF cap. Doing that and changing the gain pot should give you really incredible low volume tone!

 

[JW123]

Magic Eight Ive been using attnuators since before you probably even knew what an attnuator was, and basically with one or using the loop you achieve the same sonic goal. The only difference is if you are diming everything thru an attenuator to bedroom level you just wind up with a lot of noise thats distracting as hell. And I dont need a sermon on power amp distortion versus preamp, most mesa's the bulk of your tone comes from your preamps anyway, but Im sure you will disagree, so I will just agree to disagree with you on this.

When I use my loop as a master control I leave my amp masters at my gig level, I dont discern a huge difference in tone doing that versus an attenuator, but i guess my ears are shot from playing older amps anyways, so what do I know. To me there is no way to have the tonal qualitys of a cranked up tube amp at lower volume levels it just doesnt work so you compromise, if the poster wants to spend a fortune on attenuators and such fine, thats a choice to spend money on something that they dont really need, I would rather spend my money on a new pedal instead of that, but thats just me.

Have a Happy Easter!

 

[Anonymous]

Magic Eight Ive been using attnuators since before you probably even knew what an attnuator was, and basically with one or using the loop you achieve the same sonic goal. The only difference is if you are diming everything thru an attenuator to bedroom level you just wind up with a lot of noise thats distracting as hell. And I dont need a sermon on power amp distortion versus preamp, most mesa's the bulk of your tone comes from your preamps anyway, but Im sure you will disagree, so I will just agree to disagree with you on this.

I'm sure your experience is correct, but the theory is not. It is a fact that using a master volume at low levels does not yield much strain on the power tubes, versus an attenuator, which does. Using the loop cuts your signal level down before you get to the output stage. Using an attenuator, you crank the amp and then - using a resistive load (attenuator) - cut the signal between the amp and speakers. Maybe a third party can verify this?

When I use my loop as a master control I leave my amp masters at my gig level, I dont discern a huge difference in tone doing that versus an attenuator, but i guess my ears are shot from playing older amps anyways, so what do I know. To me there is no way to have the tonal qualitys of a cranked up tube amp at lower volume levels it just doesnt work so you compromise, if the poster wants to spend a fortune on attenuators and such fine, thats a choice to spend money on something that they dont really need, I would rather spend my money on a new pedal instead of that, but thats just me.

I definitely agree with this. IMO much of your cranked tone comes from the air pushed by the speakers, and how they react to your playing. For me, low volumes are made better either with a preamp that sounds good without needing the loud volumes, or with a lower wattage power amp paired with low wattage speakers.

 

[Stratocaster]

7. I don't know where this 'all or nothing' mentality comes from. Appreciate the amp for what is it, and don't try to make it perfect for all situations. Keep the 3 channel, and leave it set up. Enjoy it, and just accept that your current situation does not allow it to be it's full potential.

- AND -

Get that crappy practice amp/software sim that allows you to get that fix that your looking for tone wise.


Allow both the crappy practice amp/software sim and the full-powered pro level equipment to do what each does best, and don't mire in the ineffectiveness if trying to turn one into the other.


Strat.

 

[npo12354]

I'm actually in a similar situation. I live in an apartment, own a three channel dual rec, and run it through a 1x12. There's no way that I'd ever get rid of my DR...EVER!!! Personally, I use a Johnson Amplification J-Station and hook up a J-8 Footpedal through it. At apartment levels, it's killer and does more than fit my needs. I like the pedal so much that I even went through some of the patches to edit the amp modeling out so that I can use the footpedal to control any digital effects I want (I don't have enough money to spend on lots of individual analog effects). Whenever I have band practice, I bust out the DR and get to truly enjoy it in all of its glory. In my opinion, I've played around with the DR enough at low volume settings where I've found what I consider the 'sweet spot' to be (to my ears at least) for low volume playing. I'd recommend playing around and trying different settings first...you may end up being surprised.

As far as POD vs other different brand emulation processors go...I'd play around and find what you like the most. For me, I have never been a fan of POD/Line 6 stuff because it sounds too 'processed' or fake to me (again, just my opinion; though I've never really played with the really expensive products they make). You can find great deals on the Johnson Amplification gear on e-bay too.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Definitely get an attenuator. They are not 'cheap', but they're cheaper than a decent small amp, or even a good modeler. If you buy a good one, you can always resell it if you don't like it - they hold their value usually. Bear in mind that not all attenuators are equal, or work best with all amps - there's as much 'matching' to be done as with amps and speakers. But, the Hotplate is a good one with a Rectifier.

You do *not* need to crank the amp right up when you're using one - in fact, it's not even the best way. The best way is to use both the attenuator and the amp's master volume together, with each turned down the least far you can get away with at the final volume you want - there will be a 'sweet spot' where it sounds better than using either control on its own, when the amp is opened up far enough to sound good but usually well before the point of power tube distortion.

You won't get the same sound as with the amp cranked, unattenuated. It isn't possible - the speakers and especially your ears just don't respond the same at low volume as they do when you're being pounded by the air movement. But, you can get a good sound - I think better than a modeler or a software sim. I actually think you can get a better sound with an attenuated big master volume amp through efficient speakers than you can with a small amp through inefficient ones, too.

What not to do with an attenuator is buy one thinking it will turn your old 100W Plexi into a bedroom practice amp. That's why they have a bad reputation.

It's also not the same as using the loop. Using the loop doesn't involve any power stage or power supply dynamics, whereas using an attenuator does. This is especially important with an amp like a Recto where the power supply is very 'soft', even well before the point of distortion. The Hotplate is particularly good with a Recto because it actually increases the load on the amp slightly (not dangerously).

 

[boah78]

I agree with almost everything you said, attenuators are great... tons of uses... I don't think getting down to apartment volume levels with a big amp is one of them though... (almost, but not not quite) I guess it depends on the building itself, and how understanding neighbors may be. Maybe my view is tainted by the fact that when I was in an apartment most of my playing was a night (late at night), but in the apartments I was in I wouldn't be comfortable playing with ANY amp at any time that I had available to play. If all of your playing is in the afternoon or early evening, MAYBE it's a workable situation... But not a solution I'd spend any money on... If you've already got an attenuator and a small cab, sure, give it a try... If you've got to buy it, you'll probably be disappointed.

 

[discordance_axis]

I agree with what some guys have said about modelling gear. If you're on budget you could pick up an older POD version for next to nothing these days. I know they're nothing next to a full-blown stack at cranked volume but perfectly fine for home practice.

Personally I would look into getting an Eleven Rack and a nice set of good quality headphones. The ER is really good at modelling the recto tone if thats what floats your boat :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jfEjY_75Io

 

[b0nkersx1]

I would get a modeler with a good pair of headphones over an attenuator. There are some great sounding modelers (new pods and axe-fx, etc) and they can do a lot more than an attenuator can.

You can also play them at 1:00 A.M. without sacrificing any tonal quality due to lower volume. If you play your amp at 1:00 A.M. with an attenuator, there's still a chance that you could piss off your neighbors.

I didn't find attenuation worked all that great with a Recto. It's not that it doesn't do it's thing... it's more that I can get the Recto to sound just as good (or bad, depending on your perspective) by turning the master volume down as I could attenuating the volume way down.

The key is the speakers. An attenuated amp does just as poor a job of driving the speakers as an amp with the volume turned down.... and the speakers being driven are a big part of the crunchy sound we're looking for.

I also agree with this. Driving the speakers with a recto is where the magic happens.

You won't get the same sound as with the amp cranked, unattenuated. It isn't possible - the speakers and especially your ears just don't respond the same at low volume as they do when you're being pounded by the air movement.

This is important to note when thinking about an attenuator.

But, you can get a good sound - I think better than a modeler or a software sim.

In the case of rectifiers, I do not agree - there is a good benefit to working the power section harder, but without the speakers working harder, it still feels lacking.. at least for metal. There are also a lot of really great sounding modelers out there, but they're more expensive than attenuators. I think they're worth it, though, because of how much they can accomplish.

 

[joeydego]

I'm not sure but are you just playing at home? Recs sound pretty bad at tolerable home volume. I use guitar rig at home. My triple rec would get pretty loud in my apartment. Not cool. 100w head is way overkill for a non gigging non jamming with a drummer casual player. I'd put it away, personally. It's a great head. Save it for a band

 

[D2dark]

http://lepouplugins.blogspot.ca/

Free, kick *** triple rec emulation.