Speakers: Tone Satisfaction Survey

[boogieman75]

I have always been a fan of the vintage 30/greenback mix! That's what I have in my Heartbreaker 2x12 now. You get that warm push from the v30 and the mid (honk) of the greenbacks! However I have been using my Vox AC30 more as of late but this weekend we are going to be doing a casino gig and I will be using the Heartbreaker loaded with 6v6s for modern country! Hoping to move some air without tearing peeps heads off in the front row...But I guess that's what the plexi shield is for

From my experience you have to get the HB cooking and the blanket-ness goes away. I run pretty clean and will be using pedals for dirt...On my board I have a whiteface reissue rat, crowther hotcake and a Tim...Been in Axe-FX/Vox land for awhile but really EXCITED to be dusting of the boogie again!

 

[Tommy_G]

I've found that my Heartbreaker sounds better with pedals - especially just a little push and edge. I prefer a buffered pedal over bypass because of the low input resistance on Ch1....ug (which is the original Mk1 input resistance).

Helps on the Nomad too.

BTW, I spent a bunch of time going through the WGS (Warehouse Guitar Speakers) Jensen and Celestion clones online sound samples. The samples often include Lonestar and Rectifier amps driving their speakers.

Their new Invader 50 speaker (50W rated Greenback clone) is awesome. Their Liberator 80 appears to be a Celestion G12-65 clone with more sparkle at the top, which Celestion touts as being partway between a Greenback and CL-80 (eg. C90). There is also a number of variations on the V30. I'm thinking some combination of those may be the answer for me. Mix and match in a 2x12 vertical rectifier cab or something.

And yet one of my favorite tones ever was a Fender Blues Deluxe with a Jensen C12N. The guitar player using it didn't love it because he felt the speaker colored his tone too much (and has since moved to an Eminence CRex), but man, that C12N cut through the mix and sounded great in band context. Blues, rock, country. So WGS has one of those too. Its hard to find guitar players that love their tone, even when its incredible. Fussy bunch.

 

[Tommy_G]

double post

 

[Tommy_G]

I will be using the Heartbreaker loaded with 6v6s for modern country! Hoping to move some air without tearing peeps heads off in the front row...But I guess that's what the plexi shield is for

From my experience you have to get the HB cooking and the blanket-ness goes away. I run pretty clean and will be using pedals for dirt...

I had 2 corporate gigs this weekend. I took my Nomad to the first one, and was so unhappy with how it turned out. A night of continuous tweaking and retweaking. Frustrating.

My Heartbreaker's been sitting in a closet since I bought it off ebay 2 or 3 years ago. I had such a hard time coaxing tone out of it at bedroom practice levels that I never wanted to risk it in a gig situation. If it weren't for the post by BM, I probably wouldn't have taken the chance on it.

However, BM is exactly correct, once the master volumes are up to reasonable gig levels, the tubes seem to cook and the amp definately opens up. You just can't get there in a basement situation.

I set it on curvaceous and tube rectifier, 50 W, 4 ohm output into a 8 ohm speaker (due to the 50W setting) and the feel of the amp was perfect.

I set Ch1 for a country lead tone (Low, Gain @ 12:30, Treble 12:30-1:00, Mid 10:00, Bass 12:00. Channel 2 on the Hi setting, gain at about 10:30 to just get a light crunch for rock rhythms.

Channel 2 caught me by surprise. I had the treble about 12:00, and the mids at 2:00 and it was gorgeous - Warm and Creamy with Leads with neck p/u, and smooth, articulate crunch with excellent harmonic content. Heaven with the bridge humbucker. What rocknroll was meant to sound like.

I put an OCD in front of the amp (Low, gain 9:00, tone 11:30) for some extra dirt when I needed it, and an EQ in the effects loop for a lead boost.

The mates were gushing over my tone! My only complaint was that a 1x12 seemed a little pushed on the bass frequecies and with the girth of the tone coming out of this beast - the old C90 sputtered a bit from time to time. I think a quad of P12R's is exactly what this amp needs, 1959 bassman style.

Bye-bye Nomad.: you're off to the mod shop to be turned into a 3 Channel Heartbreaker!

 

[NomadExpress]

...
Bye-bye Nomad.: you're off to the mod shop to be turned into a 3 Channel Heartbreaker!

What mods are you going to have done?

 

[Tommy_G]

...
Bye-bye Nomad.: you're off to the mod shop to be turned into a 3 Channel Heartbreaker!

What mods are you going to have done?

I don't know exactly yet. (BTW - Thanks for your Visual on the Nomad Mods, I'm sure I'll use some of them).

This will be a long process.

1) find a speaker/cab complement that work better with this amp than my widebody Lonestar 1x12's w/ the C90. When I bought the Nomad, I was just so thrilled with it in the store, I bought it on the spot, only to struggle with it ever since. I'm thinking speaker/cab may be where it lost me.

2) Have the NFB loop tuned to the new cab, and probably add a presence knob to it, and possibly a total feedback pot. I disagree with a total disconnect. There is speculation on other sites that EL84's are a tube that crunches great without NFB (eg. Nomad 45), but that other types of power tubes benefit from NFB.

3) Drop the gain thru Ch3 circuit, so I'm in JTM45 to early JCM800 gain territory (NOT Rectifier!). Right now, the only thing that works for me on that channel is a stingy blues tone with the gain at 8:45...which seems like such a shame.

4) Don't know about Ch2 yet. It only sounds 'right' to me with the gain at 2:00, and would prefer a satisfactory tone at about 11:00, like the similar Heartbreaker Lust Channel on High (which I can run at about 10:30 with good results). On the Nomad, the Ch2 tone is flat and compressed anywhere other than over-the-top gain.

5) The clean channel is pretty awesome, as is the crunch setting. As I mentioned a number of times elsewhere, I'm sure it is possible to put a pot later on in that channel which can level balance with the clean channel. Then I could switch between songs with the toggle. I want to go further with that idea.

Either all that, or I may just unload the amp as stock, and find an amp more to my tastes. That would pain me because truth is, if the Nomad could be dialed in to my liking, it would give me everything I needed for a gigging amp, and I wouldn't have to thread cables in and out and around for pedals, etc. like on my Heartbreaker.

The Heartbreaker isn't perfect, but I also have some ideas to improve it, and truth is, maybe I just got old and began appreciate low gain amps (Heartbreaker) more than high gain amps (Nomad). However, the Nomad has a clean all its own. Irreplaceable in many ways.

 

[NomadExpress]

...
3) Drop the gain thru Ch3 circuit, so I'm in JTM45 to early JCM800 gain territory (NOT Rectifier!). Right now, the only thing that works for me on that channel is a stingy blues tone with the gain at 8:45...which seems like such a shame.
...

Have you tried a lower gain preamp tube in V3 (or V4)? Both 12AT7 and 12AY7 are lower gain "equivalents" to a 12AX7. It will not harm the amp to check it out. $10 reversible experiment ($20 if you want to try it in both positions). Channel 2 gain will have to increase in compensation.

 

[Tommy_G]

I tried a bunch of lower gain tubes in the past, but for different reasons. I think I recall reading that 12at7's weren't really a good low gain replacement because of being so far out on other specs, but I do have au's, ay's and 5751 kicking around the place.

I'll try that again for these new purposes, saves modding the amp.

Local amp tech thought the feedback loop design in the Nomad was 'very unusual'.

In other news:

Got my Eminence Reignmaker tonight (its got a variable position voice coil that performs a similar effect as an attenuator without the tone suck). So, I'll also be demo-ing that over the next couple weeks. Plugged it without a cab around it projecting into open air and the attenuation was substantial, and the tone hung in right to the bottom. I could put my heartbreaker masters past gig volume and be reasonably comfortable in my small practice room. That's cool. A bit of extra crunch from the power amps never hurt low gain tones a bit.

 

[A_Ryder]

I think we're all trying to get to the bottom of tone issues on a couple of Mesa amps (Nomad and Heartbreaker, for me).

Most all Mesa's have a very comparably voiced clean channel and have at least one channel with a signature Boogie lead tone of some vintage.

So, bottom line, I'm interested to know if you've tried speakers other than the MC90 Black Shadow, and what your relative satisfaction of it was for lead or clean guitar work.

Thanks!

EV 12" -
The classic Mark amps had EV speakers, I have one in my Mark IIC+ 1x12 combo. Definitely part of the "classic boogie lead" story.

Those speakers can cop any abuse thrown at them. Great for clean and boogie lead. But they are very heavy, put them in a 2x12 or 4x12 and you require serious haulage logistics.

And you can't get a "classic Marshall rock crunch" with them, especially from a Mark series amp. (I'm ok with that just saying...)

Vintage 30 -
Definitely part of rock / metal signature tonal heaven. I love those speakers. They do not have any serious hump or harshness that bothers me but a more subtle yet well liked classic sound.

Mine are in a Recto 4x12 cabinet - closed back - slant.
I think a straight cab works better for heavier sounds, you get more focus and "power". Closed is good for that heavier work too.

I removed the back one, voila , way more vibrant, airy, complex - that is - nicer cleans.

If I gigged with that cab, I would make myself a half open/closed back for it.

HeartBreaker -
I had one briefly, I think it had C90s. There was definitely a mid-range hump I wanted to remove. I know pretty well all Mesa amps, except Recto's have a mid-range hump but the HB into the 4x12 V30 cab was more to my liking (so I figure the C90's must have been adding even more mids to the amp's already substantial mids ... but I could be wrong about that?

The C90's were not bad, I just prefer EVs and V30s more.

Celestion G12T-75
I had these in a Marshall 900 2x12 combo and model 1922 2x12 cabinet. I hated them. Too harsh for my likes and didn't really get any of the signature Marshall tones I wanted.

I prefer the older style Marshall cabs with V30s.

And I've never tried Green Backs, maybe that's what I'm looking for? ... I'm trying to reconstruct the Baby Animals type sound. ...

Jenson C-12Q -
I love them in Blackface Fender Deluxe Reverbs - but I'm sure they will handle my MB gear.


So yeah EV's and V30's rock my world. And if the Baby Animal sound is via Green Backs, then I'd better go get some ...

 

[Tommy_G]

Thanks for the input. In speaker shootouts on youtube (eg. Rivera, etc.) there is no question that the EVM 12L hangs in with the best of them, and indisputable it was part of the vintage Boogie lead tones.

I'm going to demo a 2x12 vertical w/v30's when I get the time.

 

[YellowJacket]

Ok, speakers I like. I've probably commented at length on this in older posts but lets go through some options for the sake of this thread.
I prefer speaker blending. I find that any one speaker tends to be harsh or accentuate certain frequencies. Having a mix of driver types gives more of a 'stereo effect' and a 'wider spread' to one's crunch tone.

Mesa says they designed their amps to run with a setup that has minimum speaker distortion. Since trying a v30 / c90 I always default to this combination with their amps since they use either of these speakers stock with their amplifiers. I also find I prefer an oversized cab. With an oversized 2 x 12 loaded with a c90 and v30, the eq dials on my recto do what they were designed to do. Not QUITE so sold on the c90 for an Electra Dyne because it tends to blur note definition somewhat with this amplifier. It works, but you have to run the gain lower. (not REALLY such a problem)

Other options I am familiar with.

Greenbacks: Great for creamy tones that preference low amounts of overdrive. I personally love them for punk / blues / classic rock tones.
G12H 30s: Greenback on steroids. More efficient, tighter, more punchy.
WGS Reaper HP: Great cone crunch with very defined highs and punchy lows. These speakers have a very balanced tone. They sound AWESOME!

My favourite 4 x 12s are the Stiletto 4 x 12 (v30s) and a Marshall1960ac (100 watt with Greenbacks)
My favourite 2 x 12s are the Mills Acoustic Mach212B and a Road King 2 x 12. (It has two separate chambers. A close back v30 and an open back c90. Go figure!)
I also like the Dr Z Z Best Cab. (thiele 2 x 12 with a v30 and G12H 30)

Blends:
1) v30 + c90. My current favourite for Mesa amps.
2) v30 + Greenback. This one is better if a quartet of v30s sounds much too stiff or constipated. You get a more open sound at lower volumes. It has the tightness of the v30 with the warmth of the greenback.
3) v30 + g12T 75. This blend gives the aggression of the G12T 75 with the vocal mids of the v30.
4) Greenback + g12H 30. Good for blues / classic rock. Increased punch and smoother highs. I have not tried this one yet personally but I definitely want to at some point.
5) v30 + G12k 100. Haven't tried this either but I hear it is great for metal and more extreme tones.

SOOO
The moral of the story: A v30 is at the core of most guitar tones I like. The other speakers just exist to round out the edges.

IN regards to the original post:
c90s are great for cleans and lead. I also like Greenbacks and G12H 30s for clean and leads but c90s are probably one of the best options for this. v30s are better for crunch / rhythm tones.

 

[gtrman]

I am new to the Mesa family having just added the Road King II and the LoneStar to my amp arsenal.
My preference is still Marshalls but I love those new Mesas.
Anyway I have experimented a lot with different speakers on my Marshalls and my conclusion is that it usually comes down to personal preference and what style of music you are playing.
My favorite speaker is the G12H30 because it gives a smooth break-up but still has enough balls.
I tried it out on the Road King but I actually preferred the Black Shadows (I have the combo) for this particular amp.
I also tried the V30 and it gives a great mix but I must say those Black Shadow seem to work great on the Road King.
I have a 2x12 LoneStar cab coming soon which probably will end up as a mainstay with the Road King combo whenever I need more "air".

I made a speaker demo a few years back that really shows how different an amp sounds with various speakers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXp7wq9Euik&list=UUNfgzur7mCTAdPyrTPV27hA&index=14&feature=plcp

 

[Tommy_G]

I really like the demo. Very classic examples of Les Paul meets Marshall tonality.

However, I don't recall seeing a G12H30 in the mix....maybe I missed it.

 

[gtrman]

I really like the demo. Very classic examples of Les Paul meets Marshall tonality.

However, I don't recall seeing a G12H30 in the mix....maybe I missed it.

Easy explanation. The demo is a few years old .. I just recently added the G12H30.
Saw the demo myself now and I have sold half of those cabs on the video. I guess needs and preferences change ....

 

[Tommy_G]

Ok, speakers I like....etc.

YellowJacket:

I really learned alot from your comments above. I can confirm the basis of your initial comment on greenbacks through buying and trying an Eminence kindof clone of it. See my Reignmaker meets Heartbreaker thread, if you're interested.

My next step is trending toward an Eminence clone of a Cele G12-65. I'm looking for 'vintage on the edge breakup' without losing the flexibility to get good Mesa high gain tones which seems to work best with a clean speaker like the EV or C80, although admittedly, the MC90 wasn't doing it for me, and an EV12 probably would have. My understanding is that this speaker is a cross between a greenback and classic 80 (who knows if that description is apt or not).

I'm hooked into a 1x12 for now, so I'm thinking the G12-65 voicing may be the right compromise for country, blues, classic rock, and high gain rock. Thrash, grunge and death metal, or even new metal aren't particularly interesting to me, although I see that I may need 'modern high gain' tones for my own songwriting purposes.

Comments?

 

[YellowJacket]

I have one comment. Check out Warehouse Guitar Speakers. I am impressed with their tone and build quality. I particularly like the Reaper HP model. (High powered G12H 30)

In regards to the Celestion G12 65, Cradlefish has a whitebox cab and he runs a v30 and a WGS version of the G12 65. Sounds awesome!!

 

[Tommy_G]

In regards to the Celestion G12 65, Cradlefish has a whitebox cab and he runs a v30 and a WGS version of the G12 65. Sounds awesome!!

Is that the new Liberator?

 

[YellowJacket]

He's using a WGS ET 65 and a Celestion v30 in his cab.

 

[Mordacain]

Recently I've had a chance to try out a few nicer selections:

• Celestion G12H30 (Anniversary Edition came loaded in my Tweaker 1x12) - Really liked the midrange character of this speaker and the smooth highs and overall grittiness. Worked great with the 15 watt Tweaker and 5 watt Blackstar HT5 I used at the time. Bass was a bit too loose though and added a bit of fizz that couldn't be EQ'd away.
• Celestion Vintage 30 (New, Made in England) - The previous owner of my Nomad 45 2x12 had replaced the stock speakers with these. He claims they just recently broke in but they still sound very crisp to me. I love the midrange character and tight low-end. Cleans are certainly passable but were much nicer with the G12H30.
• Eminence Governor - I purchased this new months back to go into a horrendous Peavey Vypyr Tube 60 and while the speaker made an improvement, you can only polish a turd so far. I think I will be swapping this in to the Nomad so I can do a direct comparison between the Vintage 30 and the Governor (which is supposedly based on a Vintage 30). The character of the Governor is similar to the Vintage 30 but seems to be smoother overall, however I'll really need to get them both broken in an playing side by side to see which I prefer.

 

[Tommy_G]

That 'fizz' is what I get with my Greenback clone too. What's kind of cool, though, is that it adds a percussive attack to cleans to make them spank nice. They seem to work best with cleans and power amp overdrive tones. As soon as you go into boogie gain, that fizz sort of detracts from the gain tone, probably the reason Boogie uses a MC90 or, in earlier days, an EV12L - both very 'clean' (unfizzy) speakers.

I'm interested in your thoughts on the comparison between a v30 and the governor. The governer sounds excellent in every youtube clip I've heard. Welll, so does the v30. Those things mic up so perfect.