jdurso
Well-known member
I just want to just share my adventure over the past few weeks with the Roadster and experimenting with NOS preamp tubes. I'm not going to go into detaiul on the tubes, but focus more on how the Roadster reacts to them, hence posting it here instead of the Tube section. Alrighty then, picture this if you will (cudos to those who get that one):
The whole point of me diving off the deep end was two fold... one i wanted to get more aggression out of the Roadster similar to what i used to get with my old 2 channel Triple Recto, and at the same time try and retain the sweet cleans of the Roadster. The second reason was to just learn more about my beloved amp, and hopefully understand in more detail what produces what. With the help of Shred (fellow BB forumite) I aquired a bunch of NOS tubes to start with (his "metal package" as well as a few others). Not only did he supplier some great tubes but also helped me out with understand each tubes characteristics and what each preamp position did in the gain structure of the preamp. After a few very very very long PMs I began to unravel the secrets of Randall's brilliant design. Now i'm not well versed in amp building or jargon so I use my ears and my jargon to explain things... so i apoligize if i'm not right on something or explain it in a weird way. By all means please correct me if something doesn't sound right as i consider myself to be still learning.
V1 & V2 - Most will say V1 is the most important slot of the preamp and they would be right... but not fully when in terms with the Roadster. In the Roadster i have found V1 and V2 really work together a lot more than other amps. I found V1 really sets up the whole preamp in terms of headroom, compression and the higher frequencies. I experimented with tubes that stayed very clean and some that broke up very early and what i found was the ones that stayed clean at high volumes offered the most headroom to the entire preamp no matter what i put in any other slot (with maybe the exception of V6 but we'll get to that in a bit). So with that logic if you throw a tube that has an earlier breakup point the entire amp will feel more compressed and will give you "heavier" or "crunchier" tones at lower levels which was great for channels 3 and 4 but limited channels 1 and 2 somewhat.
Ok so enough with V1 because its only half of what will completely define the amp in the end. V2 much to my suprise plays a much bigger part in the whole preamps structure than what i thought or read anywhere else. To me V2 is where you can add a lot of character by defining the mids and adding harmonic complexity. The way i came about this is if i put a very mid heavy tube in V2 the whole amp would ahve more mids. Putting in a tube with less would give the amo less and if you pick a tube that has the right amount of mids and that yield very rich harmonics, those characteristics will carry to the entire amp. What took a lot of time was trying every different combination in V1 and V2 to see what felt/sounded right and what i came to realize is that if you choose a preamp tube with the right headroom (breakup point) and the right characteristic in the highs, and then selected a tube with the right amount of highs and the right harmonic complexity, anything else i tried in the other slots had a minimal effect on the overall sound (with a slight exception for V6). So I ended up putting in a Sylvania in V1 due to it having a high breakup point and nice glassy highs and a Siemens in V2 as it seemed to have the richest harmonics and the perfect amount of mids. If any recto user has read this far here is why i love this combo in V1 and V2 so much:
1. More headroom which keeps the cleans super sweet and super clean with those glassy, sparkling fender highs
2. Overall the amp has more mids than with the stock tubes... why is this important? The leads are 10x better and creates a much full attack for rhythms
3. NO MORE FIZZ!!! Thats right the biggest downside to a recto in mot peoples eyes. Now the Roadster is probably the least fizziest Recto but my fizz is now non-existant unless i dime my presence. This solution is cheaper than running an eq in the loop and sounds better as its organically created.
V3 - I found through many nights or hair pulling and cursing that you need to select V3 very carefully and make sure its chosen in respect to whats in V1 and V2. V3 seems to control the overall amount of bass on tap. If V1 and V2 aren't strong enough in the high end and the tube in V3 has a very pronounced bottom end you end up with an amp that sounds very vintage and could be boarder line flubby even with most of the bass dialed out. It would also kill and sort of crunch you would expect out of channel 3 vintage mode. What i found to be the right balance was having tubes in V1 and V2 that were very strong in the highs and mids and then selecting a tube with the amount of bass you want. Warmer the tube in V3 the more vintage-y the amp would sound, and also the flubbier. I started and eventually ended up with a GE Long Plate in V3... when i started i didnt have the Sylvania and Siemens in V1 and V2, and having the long plate in V3 , i ended up with an amp that was waaaaayyyy too bassy. Then once i found the Sylvania and Siemens was the right tubes for me in V1 and V2, i tried every other tube i had in V3 and was trying to stay away from the long plate because of past experiments. I had a mullard in there until i tried the GE long plate ago and low and behold it had the right chemistry for me. The lows with the GE long plate are pronounced and strong without being flubby (the mullard i found super warm but also pretty flubby for v3).
V4 & V5 - With the help of the Mesa RK manual and Shred I learned V4 is for your reverb and V5 is for the fx loop. Going on his advice i went with a warmer tube for the reverb and as very clear/quiet tube for the fx loop. After much experimenting i found that Shred's formula was on point. I have a Mullard 12at7 in V4 as it gives me a warmer reverb than all the other tubes. In V5 i have a GE12at7wc as it is the clearest in tone and really sent the best signal to my Axe-fx. What i did find is putting the Mullard in V5 added a bit of warmth to my effects which can be great for warming up digital delays and reverbs. For my taste i found the GE a better tube as I kind of dig the little bits of digital characteristics the axe-fx adds (different than other digital fx i've used). Since the axe-fx has very complex reverbs, the mullard ended up warming them up into mush so that was the biggest reason for keeping the GE in V5. Now in the future I'm going to experiment with a some different tubes (other than the ones i have) in V4 to see if i can improve on the reverb anymore.
V6 - With Shred wealth of knowledge i found the phase inverter V6 to control the overall presence of the amp. V1 and V2 still have the most control over the highs and mids but V6 can determine how glassy or mellow they are. Put a tube thats very strong in the highs and your highs can be somewhat ear piercing and it can also add a little bit of fizz (not much but if you tend to run the presence high then yeah its there). I exerimented with 2 basic tubes here... one being Matsushita 12ax7 and a Mullard 12ax7. The Mullard has very smooth highs so i found putting it in V6 gave me a slightly mellower presence which if i were a lead player i might opt for it. The Matsushita has amazing highs and mids hat can border on brash. I ended up with the Matsushita mainly because it gave me a much wider presence sweep and giving me more control over the presence knob. The only caveat can be since it has very strong highs and mids that can breakup quite easily its important to note where you run your presence at. If i dime the presence some of the fizz comes back and the hgihs can be slightly piercing... but suprisingly the the sweep of the presence is so wide with this tube in V6 that as long as i keep the presence between off and 2 oclock i'm golden. For Channel 4 modern i keep my presence at 9 oclock since i use it mainly for leads and single note type stuff (*** well as a rhythm that sits further back in the mix when need be). In channels 1 and 3 i keep the presence around 1 oclock... this gives me the glassy like highs in channel 1 clean tweed (running gain very low) and gives me a nice crunchy metallica rhythm in channel 3. Actually i find my channel 3 vintage right now bordering mark IV territory which is awesome.
OK so in conclusion what i've taken away from this adventure is these few rules of thumb:
1. V1 controls the overall headroom and treble characteristics of the preamp, V2 contols the overall harmonic structure and mids of the preamp, V3 controls the overall bass of the preamp and works dependant of whats in V1 and V2, V4 controls the characteristics of the reverb, V5 controls the characteristics of the fx loop, and V6 contols the overall presence of the preamp
2. V1 and V2 have the most influence the overall preamp as far as reacting to different tubes
3. Putting a tube with earlier breakup in V1 will reduce the amount of headroom of the amp and can be beneficial to those want to get breakup at lower volumes (almost like using an attenuator)
4. V2 unlike most amps plays a bigger role in the whole scheme of things
5. Dont put a tube with a very strong bass in V3 if V1 and V2 dont have the highs and mids to balance it out
6. You can cure the fizz with the right tube
7. The right tubes in the preamp can eliminate the need for an OD infront or an EQ in the loop
Again i'm just using my ears and my own words to make these conclusions and descriptions. I maybe totally off on whats actaully is happening but all i have to go by is my ears. Keep in mind also i have not experimented with every tube out there so using the tubes i've used may bias my results. In all my tests i used my PRS loaded with Aldrich pups, two cabs (mesa roadster 2x12 and a basson 2x12), my axe-fx for testing the fx loop and planet wave cables throughout. One thing i want to point out is that because of the tubes i chose in V1 and V2, i lack a little saturation so I still use my OCD when i want that chug that "gives" a little. I think because the Aldrich pups, while hot, are very clear and even sounding, they take away from the chug at times so thats why the OD is still needed. I'm planning on experimenting with some different bridge pups to see if i can get away from using the OD for rhtyhms. With my Eclipse that has EMGs there is no need for the OD but there are certain things the EMGs lack that the Aldrich's give me so i'm kind of stuck at the moment. The only reason i'm bringing this up is so it doesn't turn anyone off thats into super heavy tones... because trust em this combination of tubes slays all the other combinations even if it slightly lacks a little saturation (basically sounds more VHT than what you'd think of when you think Mesa high gain).
I hope i didnt bore anyone and i apoligize for such a lengthy post. At the end of the day it was well worth the experiment because at this point i have no need for an EQ in the loop and almost no need for an OD in front (at least for rhythms). I hope someone finds this helpful at some point as i think picking up the right few tubes can be cheaper than buying all these external units to try and conjure the sound you have in your ehad out of the amp. Yes it does take more time and can be more frustrating than just using an EQ or OD but the fruits of your labor will be repaid tenfold once you get the right combination. Plus i can't say that i've ever played so much guitar than i ahve in the last few weeks.... ended up writing about 3 songs and 2 other strong song ideas in the process. I havent been that productive with writing ina few years so i'm a very happy camper right now... and will be mroe so when my mills acoustics cab gets here at the end of the week :twisted:
The whole point of me diving off the deep end was two fold... one i wanted to get more aggression out of the Roadster similar to what i used to get with my old 2 channel Triple Recto, and at the same time try and retain the sweet cleans of the Roadster. The second reason was to just learn more about my beloved amp, and hopefully understand in more detail what produces what. With the help of Shred (fellow BB forumite) I aquired a bunch of NOS tubes to start with (his "metal package" as well as a few others). Not only did he supplier some great tubes but also helped me out with understand each tubes characteristics and what each preamp position did in the gain structure of the preamp. After a few very very very long PMs I began to unravel the secrets of Randall's brilliant design. Now i'm not well versed in amp building or jargon so I use my ears and my jargon to explain things... so i apoligize if i'm not right on something or explain it in a weird way. By all means please correct me if something doesn't sound right as i consider myself to be still learning.
V1 & V2 - Most will say V1 is the most important slot of the preamp and they would be right... but not fully when in terms with the Roadster. In the Roadster i have found V1 and V2 really work together a lot more than other amps. I found V1 really sets up the whole preamp in terms of headroom, compression and the higher frequencies. I experimented with tubes that stayed very clean and some that broke up very early and what i found was the ones that stayed clean at high volumes offered the most headroom to the entire preamp no matter what i put in any other slot (with maybe the exception of V6 but we'll get to that in a bit). So with that logic if you throw a tube that has an earlier breakup point the entire amp will feel more compressed and will give you "heavier" or "crunchier" tones at lower levels which was great for channels 3 and 4 but limited channels 1 and 2 somewhat.
Ok so enough with V1 because its only half of what will completely define the amp in the end. V2 much to my suprise plays a much bigger part in the whole preamps structure than what i thought or read anywhere else. To me V2 is where you can add a lot of character by defining the mids and adding harmonic complexity. The way i came about this is if i put a very mid heavy tube in V2 the whole amp would ahve more mids. Putting in a tube with less would give the amo less and if you pick a tube that has the right amount of mids and that yield very rich harmonics, those characteristics will carry to the entire amp. What took a lot of time was trying every different combination in V1 and V2 to see what felt/sounded right and what i came to realize is that if you choose a preamp tube with the right headroom (breakup point) and the right characteristic in the highs, and then selected a tube with the right amount of highs and the right harmonic complexity, anything else i tried in the other slots had a minimal effect on the overall sound (with a slight exception for V6). So I ended up putting in a Sylvania in V1 due to it having a high breakup point and nice glassy highs and a Siemens in V2 as it seemed to have the richest harmonics and the perfect amount of mids. If any recto user has read this far here is why i love this combo in V1 and V2 so much:
1. More headroom which keeps the cleans super sweet and super clean with those glassy, sparkling fender highs
2. Overall the amp has more mids than with the stock tubes... why is this important? The leads are 10x better and creates a much full attack for rhythms
3. NO MORE FIZZ!!! Thats right the biggest downside to a recto in mot peoples eyes. Now the Roadster is probably the least fizziest Recto but my fizz is now non-existant unless i dime my presence. This solution is cheaper than running an eq in the loop and sounds better as its organically created.
V3 - I found through many nights or hair pulling and cursing that you need to select V3 very carefully and make sure its chosen in respect to whats in V1 and V2. V3 seems to control the overall amount of bass on tap. If V1 and V2 aren't strong enough in the high end and the tube in V3 has a very pronounced bottom end you end up with an amp that sounds very vintage and could be boarder line flubby even with most of the bass dialed out. It would also kill and sort of crunch you would expect out of channel 3 vintage mode. What i found to be the right balance was having tubes in V1 and V2 that were very strong in the highs and mids and then selecting a tube with the amount of bass you want. Warmer the tube in V3 the more vintage-y the amp would sound, and also the flubbier. I started and eventually ended up with a GE Long Plate in V3... when i started i didnt have the Sylvania and Siemens in V1 and V2, and having the long plate in V3 , i ended up with an amp that was waaaaayyyy too bassy. Then once i found the Sylvania and Siemens was the right tubes for me in V1 and V2, i tried every other tube i had in V3 and was trying to stay away from the long plate because of past experiments. I had a mullard in there until i tried the GE long plate ago and low and behold it had the right chemistry for me. The lows with the GE long plate are pronounced and strong without being flubby (the mullard i found super warm but also pretty flubby for v3).
V4 & V5 - With the help of the Mesa RK manual and Shred I learned V4 is for your reverb and V5 is for the fx loop. Going on his advice i went with a warmer tube for the reverb and as very clear/quiet tube for the fx loop. After much experimenting i found that Shred's formula was on point. I have a Mullard 12at7 in V4 as it gives me a warmer reverb than all the other tubes. In V5 i have a GE12at7wc as it is the clearest in tone and really sent the best signal to my Axe-fx. What i did find is putting the Mullard in V5 added a bit of warmth to my effects which can be great for warming up digital delays and reverbs. For my taste i found the GE a better tube as I kind of dig the little bits of digital characteristics the axe-fx adds (different than other digital fx i've used). Since the axe-fx has very complex reverbs, the mullard ended up warming them up into mush so that was the biggest reason for keeping the GE in V5. Now in the future I'm going to experiment with a some different tubes (other than the ones i have) in V4 to see if i can improve on the reverb anymore.
V6 - With Shred wealth of knowledge i found the phase inverter V6 to control the overall presence of the amp. V1 and V2 still have the most control over the highs and mids but V6 can determine how glassy or mellow they are. Put a tube thats very strong in the highs and your highs can be somewhat ear piercing and it can also add a little bit of fizz (not much but if you tend to run the presence high then yeah its there). I exerimented with 2 basic tubes here... one being Matsushita 12ax7 and a Mullard 12ax7. The Mullard has very smooth highs so i found putting it in V6 gave me a slightly mellower presence which if i were a lead player i might opt for it. The Matsushita has amazing highs and mids hat can border on brash. I ended up with the Matsushita mainly because it gave me a much wider presence sweep and giving me more control over the presence knob. The only caveat can be since it has very strong highs and mids that can breakup quite easily its important to note where you run your presence at. If i dime the presence some of the fizz comes back and the hgihs can be slightly piercing... but suprisingly the the sweep of the presence is so wide with this tube in V6 that as long as i keep the presence between off and 2 oclock i'm golden. For Channel 4 modern i keep my presence at 9 oclock since i use it mainly for leads and single note type stuff (*** well as a rhythm that sits further back in the mix when need be). In channels 1 and 3 i keep the presence around 1 oclock... this gives me the glassy like highs in channel 1 clean tweed (running gain very low) and gives me a nice crunchy metallica rhythm in channel 3. Actually i find my channel 3 vintage right now bordering mark IV territory which is awesome.
OK so in conclusion what i've taken away from this adventure is these few rules of thumb:
1. V1 controls the overall headroom and treble characteristics of the preamp, V2 contols the overall harmonic structure and mids of the preamp, V3 controls the overall bass of the preamp and works dependant of whats in V1 and V2, V4 controls the characteristics of the reverb, V5 controls the characteristics of the fx loop, and V6 contols the overall presence of the preamp
2. V1 and V2 have the most influence the overall preamp as far as reacting to different tubes
3. Putting a tube with earlier breakup in V1 will reduce the amount of headroom of the amp and can be beneficial to those want to get breakup at lower volumes (almost like using an attenuator)
4. V2 unlike most amps plays a bigger role in the whole scheme of things
5. Dont put a tube with a very strong bass in V3 if V1 and V2 dont have the highs and mids to balance it out
6. You can cure the fizz with the right tube
7. The right tubes in the preamp can eliminate the need for an OD infront or an EQ in the loop
Again i'm just using my ears and my own words to make these conclusions and descriptions. I maybe totally off on whats actaully is happening but all i have to go by is my ears. Keep in mind also i have not experimented with every tube out there so using the tubes i've used may bias my results. In all my tests i used my PRS loaded with Aldrich pups, two cabs (mesa roadster 2x12 and a basson 2x12), my axe-fx for testing the fx loop and planet wave cables throughout. One thing i want to point out is that because of the tubes i chose in V1 and V2, i lack a little saturation so I still use my OCD when i want that chug that "gives" a little. I think because the Aldrich pups, while hot, are very clear and even sounding, they take away from the chug at times so thats why the OD is still needed. I'm planning on experimenting with some different bridge pups to see if i can get away from using the OD for rhtyhms. With my Eclipse that has EMGs there is no need for the OD but there are certain things the EMGs lack that the Aldrich's give me so i'm kind of stuck at the moment. The only reason i'm bringing this up is so it doesn't turn anyone off thats into super heavy tones... because trust em this combination of tubes slays all the other combinations even if it slightly lacks a little saturation (basically sounds more VHT than what you'd think of when you think Mesa high gain).
I hope i didnt bore anyone and i apoligize for such a lengthy post. At the end of the day it was well worth the experiment because at this point i have no need for an EQ in the loop and almost no need for an OD in front (at least for rhythms). I hope someone finds this helpful at some point as i think picking up the right few tubes can be cheaper than buying all these external units to try and conjure the sound you have in your ehad out of the amp. Yes it does take more time and can be more frustrating than just using an EQ or OD but the fruits of your labor will be repaid tenfold once you get the right combination. Plus i can't say that i've ever played so much guitar than i ahve in the last few weeks.... ended up writing about 3 songs and 2 other strong song ideas in the process. I havent been that productive with writing ina few years so i'm a very happy camper right now... and will be mroe so when my mills acoustics cab gets here at the end of the week :twisted:
