g-major 2

[TOOLGUY]

I have been reading that there is a delay or drop out when switching effects/patches on the "II".

Do you guys who own one have this problem?
I would think that this would be a very bad thing for using this in a live situation.

Thanks

 

[ando]

I have been reading that there is a delay or drop out when switching effects/patches on the "II".

Do you guys who own one have this problem?
I would think that this would be a very bad thing for using this in a live situation.

Thanks

It would be a problem if it were true - but fortunately it isn't true!

I have never noticed any problems with my G Major II with program switching. In fact, it has an option to have the effects from your previous patch to spill into your next patch - so you get seamless transitions. Maybe the people having problems haven't turned on the spill-over feature?

 

[TOOLGUY]

Found my info on the TC forum with no real solution to the problem.

Thanks for the quick reply.
Sounds like a winner.

 

[Tripoutski]

I have both the I and II. Yes, there is a delay in the II. The delay is not in engaging the effects, it is when changing patches. I rarely change patches during a song, rather I build them for a song and switch the effects during the song. Therefore the delay does not bother me too much. However, I like to perform a handful of songs in a row at times (like when people are still on the floor dancing, for example). When I scroll from patch 12 to patch 18, for example, the delay (which is inconsistent) may cause me to overshoot the patch and then I am scrolling up and down until the unit catches up with my controller. I can see that it could be very bothersome for some people.

-Trip

 

[ando]

I have both the I and II. Yes, there is a delay in the II. The delay is not in engaging the effects, it is when changing patches. I rarely change patches during a song, rather I build them for a song and switch the effects during the song. Therefore the delay does not bother me too much. However, I like to perform a handful of songs in a row at times (like when people are still on the floor dancing, for example). When I scroll from patch 12 to patch 18, for example, the delay (which is inconsistent) may cause me to overshoot the patch and then I am scrolling up and down until the unit catches up with my controller. I can see that it could be very bothersome for some people.

-Trip

Ok, I need to clarify a few things.

I'm assuming you are talking about using the G Major II like a sep of stompboxes? ie. switching effects on and off within each patch? I also assume you mean you are scrolling with your foot-controller and that there is a delayed response to your footswitching? ie. using the bank up/down arrows to change patches while the individual switches are assigned to each effect within a patch?

Using my Ground Control, I have never used stompbox mode, I just send a patch number for the effect I want. It is always instant. My numbers switch all over the place, #12, #76, #101. There is never a delay. But the difference is that I don't scroll through the G Major II in real time. If I change banks, I use the bank up/down buttons until I select the bank I want, then I press on the preset button I want. The MIDI program message isn't sent from my control UNTIL I press a preset. What you are trying to do it send continuous program changes to your G Major II. It isn't designed to be fast in this way. Either you use presets for every effect change, or you have to scroll slowly. The reason you have to scroll slowly in this setup is because you have setup all your patches in stompbox mode, which means every time you scroll using bank buttons, you are also asking the G Major II to initialise each effect and assign the preset buttons to the effects in your patch. That takes time for any effects unit. It is a matter of processing time. And it's not how these units are designed to optimally perform.

If you are determined to use the foot-controller you have, I think you should try this.

Lets assume you have a song using the following effects:

1. Noise gate
2. Compressor
3. Chorus,
4. Delay
5. Reverb

Now, rather than switching these effects on and off within the same patch, make up a set of presets which correspond to consecutive buttons on your foot-controller. For the sake of argument, lets use Bank 1, presets 1 - 5.

If you make a series of patches in your G Major II which are basically the same except you have conmbinations of these effects, you could achieve the same thing.

eg.
Preset 1: Noise gate,Compressor,Chorus
Preset 2: Noise Gate, Compressor, Chorus, Delay
Preset 3: Noise Gate, Compressor, Chorus, Delay, Reverb
Preset 4: Noise Gate, Compressor, Chouse, Reverb.


So why would you want to do this? Because when changing patches you send an instant number just once, which accomplishes the sound change you want. The way you have it now, when you scroll you are asking the G Major II to reset everything for every press of your scroll buttons.

OR!!

Just buy a Ground Control!!

The great thing about a Ground Control is that you can have both functions at the same time - you can change banks and see the bank numbers change on your controller, then you can use one row of you buttons for patch changes, and the other row of your buttons for switching effects on and off within a patch.

This system is better because you don't have to watch the screen of the G Major II to find out how far you have scrolled. You just look at your foot-controller and select the right number, and you know that the G Major II will catch up and not go too far.

What controller are you using?


(This is surprisingly hard to describe in words!!)

 

[TOOLGUY]

I have an x15 so I can choose to run it in patch mode sending an instant patch switch (run from patch 1-10 with a button push) or stomp box mode. With the 2101 I find it easy to set the patch for the song I want and just toggle a single cc message to turn off/on the effect (say I need to latch a delay and flanger back and fourth) .

This way everything is contained within the same patch and levels stay the same.
My 2101 has zero dropout when you do this and because I have a 2x cpu in it I can do seamless "patch" switches as well (as you described).

As long as I can set up a patch and pick effects within that patch in and out with zero delay or dropout I am golden.

Ando if I am understanding correctly I can also set up my floorboard (x15) to jump from patch 1 to patch 8 "on the fly" without any delay problem. Where the issue is if I were to scroll through banks you get the dropout?
Guys thanks again for the input.

 

[ando]

I have an x15 so I can choose to run it in patch mode sending an instant patch switch (run from patch 1-10 with a button push) or stomp box mode. With the 2101 I find it easy to set the patch for the song I want and just toggle a single cc message to turn off/on the effect (say I need to latch a delay and flanger back and fourth) .

This way everything is contained within the same patch and levels stay the same.
My 2101 has zero dropout when you do this and because I have a 2x cpu in it I can do seamless "patch" switches as well (as you described).

As long as I can set up a patch and pick effects within that patch in and out with zero delay or dropout I am golden.

Ando if I am understanding correctly I can also set up my floorboard (x15) to jump from patch 1 to patch 8 "on the fly" without any delay problem. Where the issue is if I were to scroll through banks you get the dropout?
Guys thanks again for the input.

Actually, even if you scroll banks, on most controllers, it won't transmit a number through MIDI until you select a program number from the new bank. And it will be instant, regardless of which bank it's from. Any decent controller works this way. If it sends changes every time you press a button, that is bad because you can't keep playing while you search for your new patch (or if you did keep playing, you would have the effects continually changing), and it tries to change program for every press of the controller. At the very least, a good foot-controller needs to have its own display so you can scroll through banks and be confident of which bank number is being transmitted. To follow the bank presses continuously from the screen of the destination unit is a crazy system. After all, the amp is behind you, the foot-controller is in front of you so you can face the audience.

When somebody complains about the issue Tripoutsky described, they are basically complaining that nobody has designed an effect unit that can switch and load patches 5 times per second! (Or however fast somebody can press their bank switch.)

No effects unit that I know of is designed to work that way. I believe people are blaming the G Major II for problems caused by their foot-controller. And I certainly don't believe that the G Major II has any problems that the original G Major doesn't have. The II is definitely superior. It's not the best thing out there, but it is solid and shouldn't be blamed for problems with other equipment or a user's lack of understanding of it.

 

[ljbarbeau]

I already answered on the tc forum but thought id post my answer here aswell since people seems to actually talk in this forum...

yes its an issue but I found an easy work around..

from my experience I found the lag happening when switching from a preset to another one with a different routing. (from serial to parallel for example)

so my quick fix is to use routing lock or program all ur preset to use the same routing. (Im using semi-parallel)

its not perfect but I haven't experienced any lag since. but on the other hand my presets are pretty simple reverb, noise gate delay some time chorus or flanger... nothing fancy im playing prog/death metal so..

 

[TOOLGUY]

Thanks again guys.
Looks like it's not that big of a deal.
I can't wait to be able to pair this up with my pre (midi preamp channel switching ).
Ordering this week.

 

[Tripoutski]

I'm assuming you are talking about using the G Major II like a sep of stompboxes? ie. switching effects on and off within each patch? I also assume you mean you are scrolling with your foot-controller and that there is a delayed response to your footswitching? ie. using the bank up/down arrows to change patches while the individual switches are assigned to each effect within a patch?

Yes and yes.

Using my Ground Control, I have never used stompbox mode, I just send a patch number for the effect I want. It is always instant. My numbers switch all over the place, #12, #76, #101. There is never a delay. But the difference is that I don't scroll through the G Major II in real time. If I change banks, I use the bank up/down buttons until I select the bank I want, then I press on the preset button I want. The MIDI program message isn't sent from my control UNTIL I press a preset.

If you are determined to use the foot-controller you have, I think you should try this.

Lets assume you have a song using the following effects:

1. Noise gate
2. Compressor
3. Chorus,
4. Delay
5. Reverb

Now, rather than switching these effects on and off within the same patch, make up a set of presets which correspond to consecutive buttons on your foot-controller. For the sake of argument, lets use Bank 1, presets 1 - 5.

If you make a series of patches in your G Major II which are basically the same except you have conmbinations of these effects, you could achieve the same thing.

eg.
Preset 1: Noise gate,Compressor,Chorus
Preset 2: Noise Gate, Compressor, Chorus, Delay
Preset 3: Noise Gate, Compressor, Chorus, Delay, Reverb
Preset 4: Noise Gate, Compressor, Chouse, Reverb.

So why would you want to do this? Because when changing patches you send an instant number just once, which accomplishes the sound change you want. The way you have it now, when you scroll you are asking the G Major II to reset everything for every press of your scroll buttons.

You expressed that perfectly. I played with this when I first bought my GM1, however, I decided against it. The primary reason is that I have different settings for most of the songs that I play. In a 50-song gig (standard 4-hour night) I will have custom sounds for 30 of the songs. A different reverb, a different chorus, octavers, etc. I like the spring reverb with the Tele and the plate with the 'Paul, that sort of stuff. That being said, I do have my first 6 or 7 presets set up like you describe and I use the for jamming, sit-ins, whatever. They are my standard go-to presets. I change the mode of my controller when primarily using these settings and there is no lag at all.

OR!!

Just buy a Ground Control!!

What controller are you using?

I have the X-15. I like the GC, but not enough to change. The X-15 is completely programmable. There are some great units out there now that I am liking, but I am not bound by controller limitations, rather preference based on what the GM1 could do for me.

What you are trying to do it send continuous program changes to your G Major II. It isn't designed to be fast in this way.

I disagree with this statement (although your post is extremely good) as TC touted this as a function of the GM1. It worked well, too. However, I think that this may be accurate for the GM2 as it may have been a "sacrifice" for other functionality.

(This is surprisingly hard to describe in words!!)

Nope, this was a very intelligent post and I enjoy post that make me rethink my setup! I am no longer in a working band so I don't spend too much time with my GM2 getting to know it as I leave it at church where I visit it every Sunday.

After all, the amp is behind you, the foot-controller is in front of you so you can face the audience.... When somebody complains about the issue Tripoutsky described, they are basically complaining that nobody has designed an effect unit that can switch and load patches 5 times per second! (Or however fast somebody can press their bank switch.)

Point taken, but remember that I based my functionality on the GM1, which could do this. My controller has a display, so I am never looking at my amp. If the band decides to play song #27 on the setlist instead of #24, I will scroll to it. I have signature sounds programmed for many songs. I am not saying that my way is best, but it has worked very well for me based on my experience with the GM1. Now, with the switching delay, what worked for me with the GM1 no longer works for me with the GM2. I am not adverse to change, and most likely I will adapt to your type of configuration. However, it is important to recognize that this is a popular way of using the unit, thus this is where some are voicing complaints. In the grand scheme of things, I miss the tap tempo button the most!

Actually, even if you scroll banks, on most controllers, it won't transmit a number through MIDI until you select a program number from the new bank. And it will be instant, regardless of which bank it's from.

The controllers that I have worked with do not work this way, but my experience is limited fer sure. This is an excellent point and I need to see if I can program this. In "a preset for every song" mode (which is how I work in gigging situations), this may not work.

yes its an issue but I found an easy work around..

from my experience I found the lag happening when switching from a preset to another one with a different routing. (from serial to parallel for example)

so my quick fix is to use routing lock or program all ur preset to use the same routing. (Im using semi-parallel)

its not perfect but I haven't experienced any lag since. but on the other hand my presets are pretty simple reverb, noise gate delay some time chorus or flanger... nothing fancy im playing prog/death metal so..

Now this sounds intriguing... I had never thought of that nor heard it until I saw your post on the TC site.

Well done, everyone. Good banter helps all of us, and this is good! TOOLGUY, I hope that you enjoy the GM2. It is really the best bang for the buck out there, even with all of these opinions. Having it also control my Mesa Pre is simply awesome. I hope that you enjoy it.

 

[TOOLGUY]

The controllers that I have worked with do not work this way, but my experience is limited fer sure. This is an excellent point and I need to see if I can program this. In "a preset for every song" mode (which is how I work in gigging situations), this may not work


This is what I actually do now with the 2101.
If I need say a delay in that "songs program" for solo/clean work ect I just use it as
if it were a stomp box with the x-15.

I was worried that the drop out issue was when you would toggle effects within that patch
in and out in this way.

 

[TOOLGUY]

Came in today.
I see what people are talking about now.
Yes it is very annoying but workable (at least it lets the dry sound carry through) lag.
Switching via x15 midi not scrolling through patches.
I am surprised to see that a modern unit has this type of lag
but I am not going to ***** about it too much as I sort of knew that going in.
Funny... after buying this I see how flexible my 2101 really is (and
that's 15 years older.) The midi options are no where near as good as the 2101.
Effects on the Gm2 sound great.
Reverbs are nice and the trem (if I can get the **** thing to store correctly)
is SPOT ON.The Univibe works well with a cc pedal too.
Blending dry/wet sounds are good and I can hear the pre shine through (2101 could not do that).
Other +'s are the amp switch. It's nice to be able to switch
the old pre via midi now.

I am disappointed in the patch switch lag (it's bad.. trust me) .
I am also sort of stunned that a 15 year old digitech unit has more features and is more flexible on effects/midi routing and more open to put any effect in any chain.
I think it's a nice unit but was it worth the $500...?
Wonder if the 1101 is the way to go?
Overall I give it a B+

 

[ando]

Came in today.
I see what people are talking about now.
Yes it is very annoying but workable (at least it lets the dry sound carry through) lag.
Switching via x15 midi not scrolling through patches.
I am surprised to see that a modern unit has this type of lag
but I am not going to ***** about it too much as I sort of knew that going in.
Funny... after buying this I see how flexible my 2101 really is (and
that's 15 years older.) The midi options are no where near as good as the 2101.
Effects on the Gm2 sound great.
Reverbs are nice and the trem (if I can get the **** thing to store correctly)
is SPOT ON.The Univibe works well with a cc pedal too.
Blending dry/wet sounds are good and I can hear the pre shine through (2101 could not do that).
Other +'s are the amp switch. It's nice to be able to switch
the old pre via midi now.

I am disappointed in the patch switch lag (it's bad.. trust me) .
I am also sort of stunned that a 15 year old digitech unit has more features and is more flexible on effects/midi routing and more open to put any effect in any chain.
I think it's a nice unit but was it worth the $500...?
Wonder if the 1101 is the way to go?
Overall I give it a B+

That's very strange. I don't have this problem that you and Tripoutsky are having. There is no appreciable delay no matter how I use the MIDI. Maybe there has been some sort of undocumented change in the the chipset since I got mine.

If so, I'm sorry if I led anyone astray. My unit is fine in all respects which is why I was happy to vouch for it. Weird. :?

 

[lento]

I've never had an issue with changing patches, either. Although I use my preset changes next to each other, i.e. 1,2,3 etc (for convenience of my foot controller, bottom row for presets, top row for effects on/off) I have just tried switching from random Factory bank presets into the User bank, again with no perceptible delays.
I use a Yamaha MFC10.

Could it be that it's unique to some foot controllers ?

Otherwise, as Ando said, it may be down to a certain chipset - or even an older OS (latest is 1.02) ?

Lyn

 

[TOOLGUY]

Not sure.
I am going to mess with it some more today.
I have it at 48k right now and have read adjusting it to 44 helps.
I did try setting the patches to the same routing..did not help.
I don't think it's the controller as the cc/patch signal is instantly processed.

The patches don't have total drop out but if you have say a phazer on one preset and a clean/chorus type patch on another it will take a few ms for the actual effect to catch up to itself after the switch (hope that made sense).
As of now I don't think anyone would be able to tell in a live situation as the preamp tone still carries through (sort of like if you were late on a stompbox)but will know more next practice.

 

[ando]

Not sure.
I am going to mess with it some more today.
I have it at 48k right now and have read adjusting it to 44 helps.
I did try setting the patches to the same routing..did not help.
I don't think it's the controller as the cc/patch signal is instantly processed.

The patches don't have total drop out but if you have say a phazer on one preset and a clean/chorus type patch on another it will take a few ms for the actual effect to catch up to itself after the switch (hope that made sense).
As of now I don't think anyone would be able to tell in a live situation as the preamp tone still carries through (sort of like if you were late on a stompbox)but will know more next practice.

Are you able to get hold of some different foot-controllers to test if that is the problem?

I don't think you can rule out the foot-controller just because the CCs are fine. There may be some sort of initialisation problem (the stage when the unit assigns the pedal buttons with the MIDI parameters) with your controller which disappears once the patch is fully active. After all, you say it's only a problem when you change patches. Tripoutsky also said that once the patch change is complete, the individual control buttons work fine - they are CCs too.

I would like to be able to compare apples with apples here. Until we are comparing the same setup, I don't think we'll know what the problem is. I've got a couple of other MIDI pedals lying around. I'll plug them in and see if I can get the unit to behave worse.

 

[pokerrules47]

For those of you with an X-15 controller, can you do PC changes and CC changes at the same time? If not, how do you change modes?

The reason I ask is that I have the ability to get an X-15 cheap. I am wondering if it's going to allow me to switch between patches and use stompbox mode at the same time. If it doesn't, I will just set it up for stompbox mode and find another way to switch patches. My requirements for patches is limited.

Also, can anyone show me a tutorial or walk through for configuring the x-15?

 

[Tripoutski]

For those of you with an X-15 controller, can you do PC changes and CC changes at the same time? If not, how do you change modes?

There is a mode button (top left).

The manual is still available online from Art and it has instructions on programming and resetting the unit (Here is the link.).

 

[TOOLGUY]

I have an old ada mxc over my buds place (has the quad cc breakout box).
I will grab it this week and let you all know.
8)

 

[lento]

I've never had an issue with any latencies when changing my user patches but, after reading the posts here and on the TC forum, I ran a little test and while this does nothing to fix the problem, it shows some of the inconsistencies involved and, for now, the best way of getting around it.

I connected my footcontroller (Yamaha MFC10) into Triaxis, midi through to G Major 2, then midi out to the midi in of an Emu 1616m. I also ran a midi out from the Triaxis to get the Programme Change command as the TC doesn't give this. The test highlights the difference between Triaxis sending the PC command and G Major sending the CC commands.

Running Cubase 4 at a default 120 bpm (using the standard 480ppqn) I then sent programme changes 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, from the Factory bank and, using the List editor, found huge differences between Cubase receiving the initial PC command and the CC messages that followed (the assigned CC numbers from the Mod menu). These varied quite wildly depending on the patch and you'll notice, as the CC commands are spaced only a millisecond apart, they're not the problem.

Factory bank patches 1 - 5 using a 48khz clock, no routing lock : from 56ms to a whopping 874ms.

Using a 44khz clock, no routing lock : from 43ms to 192ms

I then measured my User patches (44khz, no routing lock) from 40ms to 65ms.

Switching the routing lock on reduced the lag a few milliseconds more, but you wouldn't really notice it - it was changing the clock that did it in this test.

Finding an old post on the TC form, I came across this:
"I have been in contact with TC about this issue. It is an issue with the unit and not how people are using them. The latency issues are a problem with some of the modulations and filters (not all, just some....they would not give me the specifics as to which ones). But the reverbs and delays have no issues they say. They are working intensly on this issue to have it resolved they said."

So, we live in hope that maybe in the next update ....... but they don't appear to be very forthcoming on this !

Lyn