Dual Rev F Blacface: Confessions of a Hystrionic Guitarist.

[YellowJacket]

So I have come to the conclusion that things are often best when they are used the way they were made in the first place.

Here is a story of a lot of frustration tone chasing. I'll apologize in advance for the blog like tone of this but ya, I just did something tonight and I'm banging my head against the wall now. Such a *duh* moment.

Stage one, learning guitar. I played keyboards in a band at age 18 but back then, in the late 90s, keyboards weren't cool. It was only fashionable to play with a digital piano a la moist, or none at all. SO. My bandmates basically 'forced' me to learn guitar, although it didn't take much arm twisting. Much to the annoyance of my father, I bought a Godin LG because it was an $800 guitar that came factory with Seymour Duncans. It really had a really thick sound with a nice 'bite' in the highs that I loved. It sounded 'fantastic' with my brother's Peavey Bandid 112, at least to my ears. Then one day, I heard a local band play with Mesa Dual Rectifiers and I LOVED the tone. They had such a massive crunch that was balanced perfectly EQ wise. Not overly scooped and buzzy like a Marshall. (I only knew of JCM900s and JCM2000s back then)

That band disbanded and I started something punk rock. I borrowed a Marshall JCM2000 for a recording but I hated the tone. With my guitar it always sounded muddy. So I took my instrument and went to the local guitar store where I was introduced to mesa amps. The salesman (A sweaty chode of a man at the time) dialed in an AWESOME tone with a Nomad 55 and a 4 x 12. I wanted that amp and I put a downpayment on the head as well as buying a mini marshall 4 x 12 which I gigged with along with the bandit. (true story, bandit sounds WAY better with celestions instead of Sheffields)

At the time, these guys were the only Mesa dealers in town so I was waiting MONTHS for the head to come in. I recall checking in at the guitar store before going to my guitar tech, who had just installed two Seymour Duncan Alnico II Pro humbuckers in my Guitar. He happened to have a Dual Rec Rev F Blackface in on consignment as well as a Nomad 55 combo. The Alnico II Pro pups were much more polite and really didn't jive well with the Nomad, so I recalled back to that show with the Dual Rectifiers. I ended up getting back the deposit from the guitar store (salesman was pissed) and picking up the used Dual, which I still have to this day.

This marked the start of the Gear Obsession.

Cabs = Mini Marshall --> respeakered with G12T 75s I got from a Marshall 1960JCM800B cab. I fixed up the large cab and sold it. Still kind of mid focused and muddy sounding. Wired it to switch between 1 speaker, 2 speakers, and 4 speakers.
Tested: Marshall 1960ax cab for a month. Marshall 1960a cab for a month.
Test Drove: Marshall 1960 Vintage, Marshall 1960TV, Mesa Boogie Stiletto and Rectocabs.

Always torn between Greenbacks (too farty) and v30s (too constipated) but they both had this warm mid focused tone I preferred. I really consider Greenday, MxPx, Bad Religion, NOFX/ Creed, Nickelback, POD, etc to be the two foundations for my crunch tone preferences.

Mini Marshall ---> Sold to my brother. He has since sold it and now plays a Lonestar Special with a Celestion G12H Heritage and a Red Bear MK60 through a Thiele 2 x 12 with WGS Reaper 50watt speakers.

I didn't mind the mini marshall but I played through my buddy's rectocab and I loved how warm and huge the tone was.
I agonized between the Stiletto and the Rectocab, noting that the Stiletto worked best with the Vintage High Gain setting (better for punk rock with the mid focused tone) and the Rectocab worked best with the modern setting and was better for huge rock tones.

Acquired Side Armour Rectocab because I was getting into rock at this time. Great cab but always sounded 'closed' unless I turned the volume up. There were always buzzy frequencies that bugged me but I eventually pinned them down to being that stupid basement. Dumb thing!

Also tried EL-34s in my Dual. Went back to 6L6s.

At this time I was getting totally pissed with my tone so I started guitar shopping with NO money. I recall trying basically every guitar in the store (Different store from the Nomad saga. That guy was still pissed) but getting split between a PRS Singlecut and a Gibson LP. I recall wanting both of them but settling on the Gibson LP, much to the surprise of the Salesman. So I put it on layaway and didn't tell my parents, and made regular trips to visit L&MQ. I was finishing my final year of my first degree so I was only in 3 courses a semester. I didn't sleep that year. I worked 2 - 3 shifts a week flipping burgers, got ready for my music school auditions, and managed to pass a couple of HARD science courses. (Biochem and Molecular Engineering)
In December that year, the salesman had a surprise for me. He said his bosses were getting absolutely tired of that guitar being on layaway. They didn't want it there in the first place since they could 'order a guitar like that in a second'. He said he had shown to them that I had made payments on my layaway once a month so they had agreed to let me take the instrument on 0% financing for 12 months! So ya, it was either that or the guitar went back on the shelf so I bought the guitar.
I noted that the pickups were unbalanced but I used the bridge pickup for high gain and the neck one for cleans so that was fine for the time being. I noted that I'd replace them if I ever mellowed out a bit.

I put a PRS HFS pickup in my LG to try and approximate the sound of a Singlecut. BIG MISTAKE. It was possibly the worst pickup for that guitar. Awhile later, I put a Seymour Duncan Custom Custom in that guitar and that pickup has stayed there to this day.

Yellowjackets. At this time I developed a "you're playing to loud" complex. Practicing or playing at church, I always got yelled at to turn down. It was turn DOWN to the point where the volume was almost off. Like your tonestack doesn't work then. I talked to Gar Gilles (RIP =-( ) and he suggested I try Yellow Jackets for low power situations. I bought them on his advice, tried them, and HATED them. Virtually useless. But I had them so whatever.
One day, I happened to have them in my amp and I happened to have my amp with me at a guitar store so I tried my Dual + Yellow Jackets with a Marshall 1960ax. The salesman wanted to know what they did so I showed him. It was astounding. Unlike the Mesa 4 x 12, which sounded anemic and constipated, the Greenback 4 x 12 just bloomed. It sounded good no matter what the volume!
SO. I bought my buddy's Peavey 1 x 12 and swapped the Sheffield for a greenback, expecting favourable results. What I got was a very tinny buzzy tone, no matter what I did. Crunch sucked, but leads and cleans were awesome.

I then got caught up with Cello so I forgot about guitar and stopped spending money on it.
I went away for my masters and left my 4 x 12 at my parents place in Manitoba. I seriously NEVER played the amp or my guitar that year. I touched either of them twice. My Godin went with my brother out to Edmonton.

Over the summer, I stashed my gear in Vancouver, took my Les Paul to Winnipeg, and joined the Boogieboard here. I got plans for a thiele cab and put a greenback and a v30 in it, hoping to ditch that awful peavey. I also never played loud anymore so I left the 4 x 12 at my parents for a rainy day.
That summer I tried a Marshall JCM2000 with my Rectocab and Les Paul. The tone blew me away. I commented it was 'the' sound I always wanted.

That fall, Recto + homemade 2 x 12 was awesome. It just tore. Problem, there was this buzzing high end I couldn't dial out. I ran the Dual Recto exclusively with Yellow Jackets and tolerated the problem.

Last spring I tried an Electra Dyne and was all but convinced to dump the Dual and get it. I AB'd it against Duals, and a selection of Marshalls, noting that the Dyne was just smoother and had these awesome throaty mids. It was MY sound. The sound I could hear in my head but could never get. I noted that my rig with Thiele and Dual sounded somewhat similar to the Dyne.

This last summer, I read up substantially on pickups and heard about electronic swaps. I was seriously considering either Seymour Duncan Alnico II pro in neck with a Custom Custom in Bridge; Seth Lover in neck and bridge; hybrid pickups; or antiquity humbuckers. In a snap decision, I got Bare Knuckle Rebel Yells used. I replaced them and noticed a subtle difference in tone but it wasn't until I replaced the electronics that the guitar came alive. The difference was surprising.

I also got my brothers c90 and built an oversized 2 x 12 with a v30 to match. Freaking awesome sounding cab.

I traded my 4 x 12 Rectocab for a Fender P-Bass, bought an Ashdown 210 and I currently run that with a Markbass SA450 head. Bass gear is so low maintenance!! Moved to Toronto for school.

So, I got frustrated with tone again. I discovered that there is no difference in volume between 2 EL-34s and YellowJackets. YellowJackets = better clean while EL-34s = better crunch. I was SO pissed off but I dug my oversized 2 x 12 out of storage and noted that it was a great match for the Dual Recto. Great tone, just not 'my' sound these days.

Over the holidays I tried an Electra Dyne 2 x 12 combo with my brother. I fell in love all over again! Been scheming how to acquire on in a student budget ever since. (We currently run a deficit because school = expensive)

Since the large cab does modern tones well, I decided to swap the v30 for a G12m Heritage in the thiele. This was like two weeks ago. The cleans and lead tone improved but I honestly don't care for the crunch. Always a buzziness you can't dial out unless you crank the thing!

***********************************************************

So, this has been a loooooooooooooooooooong preamble.
I had not played my Dual fully loaded with tubes since several years back. Not unless I was using it to play bass with my Ashdown cab.
I had been using

1) Yellow Jackets. With two tube slots empty. Sound alright with Greenback'd Thiele but thin and buzzy or oversaturated with Gibson Les Paul. The Cleans and Lead tones are phenomenal, incidentally. I plug in my Godin with the Duncans and it just TEARS with this setup =-/ GRRRRR!

2) 2 EL-34s with Gibson + oversized cab. It is rather mid focused and doesn't really emphasize the midrange bark EL-34s are known for. Great cleans and decent lead, but crunch is only alright. Not terribly wide.


3) 3 EL-34s + Gibson + Greenback'd cab. Sounds crunchy but almost nasal in quality. Cleans and lead tone were both good. One would think the thiele was designed to work with a different speaker, such as a c90. I'd imagine a c90 would sound neutral in this cab.

I was just frustrated and had basically decided to part out my homemade cabs, sell my Dual, and get an Electra Dyne combo. Definitely would make me happy. I just had some reservations. I decided tonight to try option 4 and set up the amp stock. SOOO.

4) 2 6L6 STR 450 badge and 2 5881s. 2 rectifier tubes. Bold, tube rectifier. Red channel. Oversized 2 x 12. I'm certain Dave at Mills designed that cab specifically for a Dual Recto since they match so well.

Conclusion 1) Well, I remember why I loved the amp in the first place. Totally different beast. With all the dials set straight up except presence, the tone was monsterous. It just sounds bigger, thicker, deeper, darker, and phatter. Much less bright. Also, much less tight.
It is almost like you have to 'fight' with the amp because there is so much power. The beef is immense, from almost off all the way up to gigging levels. It sounds better cranked, but pretty dang good even almost off, as many have said.
On the downsize, the typical weaknesses also asserted themselves: Poor lead tones (although I have not tried the orange channel for this yet) and 'good' but rather dull cleans. The cleans lack vibrance and bounce, something they acquire in spades with the Yellow Jackets.

But, the high gain crunch rhythm. ****. I had a stupid grin on my face. Ya, you have to run the gain hot for 'no volume' practice levels but as you crank the amp, you can back it off. The lead really wasn't that bad. You crank the gain hotter and back off on the volume knob for crunch. It just sounded so thick and juicy and the interaction between the guitar an amp was so fun while playing. You could just feel the whole amp straining, trying to keep up. The obvious downside is that you lose the immediacy that comes with running at lower wattages. It just isn't quite so tight, but the oversized cab compensates fine thanks to the interior baffle.

At this point I REMEMBERED why I stuck with the Dual in the first place. It does what it does well. The amp is a monster truck and I spent far too much time and $$$s trying to make it into a racecar. When I just let it BE a monster truck, it does that exceptionally well. THINGS SOUND BEST WHEN YOU USE THEM THE WAY THEY WERE DESIGNED TO BE USED!!!

So I think I figured something else. The OTHER sound I want so badly is a Marshall crunch. The dual will not do that. The Electra Dyne does it, but in a way I find even more pleasing to my ears than with a Marshall. I also want a fender strat =-/
SOOOOO. I guess I'll stick with my Dual for the time being, with all the tubes in it. I'll just keep practicing and hopefully some funds will come my way and I can acquire a second head to do the OTHER tone I want. Those great cleans, classic rock tones, smoldering leads, etc.

Now . . . What to do with the thiele? Leave both greenies in or put the v30 back in the one side. I feel guilty for spending SO MUCH $$$$$$$$$s on gear this year. It is been far too much and I'm never happy. Hopefully the Dual sounds as good tomorrow as it did today.

Conclusion 2) Dave at Mills Acoustics designs awesome cabs.

Conclusion 3) Mixing Celestion v30s with c90s does a great job of at least mitigating low volume fizz. They also sound huge when running together.

 

[YellowJacket]

Oh, I know someone mentioned the old chinese 6L6s that used to ship with the early Duals. The ones shaped like coke bottles. I made the mistake of selling mine to a friend and I have to say, they were possibly the best sounding tubes I ever heard in my amp =-(

 

[fluff191]

Good read!!!!

I had a similar experience with tubes in my Dual Recto. I thought I had the perfect sound with the super expensive Cryo Winged C tubes and all NOS preamp tubes, and when I tried to sell it I just threw all of the stock tubes back in it and couldn't believe what I heard: sweet goodness.

All of that after almost 2 years of tubes swaps!!! Ack!!!!

Now I have learned to just leave well enough alone.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[b0nkersx]

Guitar players claim to hear differences in shades of paint. When you can just sit down, breathe easy, and enjoy things as they are, you can have a lot more fun.

edit: also, Mills Cabs are worth twice their purchase price.

 

[screamingdaisy]

THINGS SOUND BEST WHEN YOU USE THEM THE WAY THEY WERE DESIGNED TO BE USED!!!

I spend a lot of time trying to understand how Mesa intended their amps to be used. Not that I always use them that way, but I do find that knowledge to be helpful when trying to get their amps to function well as a whole (ie, each channel working well in combination with every other channel).

 

[YellowJacket]

Good read!!!!

I had a similar experience with tubes in my Dual Recto. I thought I had the perfect sound with the super expensive Cryo Winged C tubes and all NOS preamp tubes, and when I tried to sell it I just threw all of the stock tubes back in it and couldn't believe what I heard: sweet goodness.

All of that after almost 2 years of tubes swaps!!! Ack!!!!

Now I have learned to just leave well enough alone.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It is probably a good practice to have a few flavours of ice cream on hand. A couple of contrasting but equally great axes is a good place to start. Now that I have realized that the 'other' tone I want is a Marshall, that should help keep GAS under control.

Guitar players claim to hear differences in shades of paint. When you can just sit down, breathe easy, and enjoy things as they are, you can have a lot more fun.

edit: also, Mills Cabs are worth twice their purchase price.

Here's the funny thing, the oversized 2 x 12 is actually a copy of the mills design. I took the exterior dimensions and basically reverse engineered the thing. The results were ASTOUNDING and I can only begin to imagine how awesome the real deal sounds.
Basically, the oversized 4 x 12 I had before was really muddy. With this 2 x 12, you can just pour on the gain and the tone still retains a great deal of clarity. Also, for the record, the cleans DO NOT suffer. They sound fine.

THINGS SOUND BEST WHEN YOU USE THEM THE WAY THEY WERE DESIGNED TO BE USED!!!

I spend a lot of time trying to understand how Mesa intended their amps to be used. Not that I always use them that way, but I do find that knowledge to be helpful when trying to get their amps to function well as a whole (ie, each channel working well in combination with every other channel).

Hmm. I wasn't talking about dialing in tones but more about my obsession about running different tubes. Obviously, the tonestack in a 2 Channel Dual Rectifier was not optimized to work with two EL-84s. The tonestack is also not optimized to work with a thiele 2 x 12 with 2 greenbacks, or even a greenback and a v30. (even if I happen to like those speakers)

The Dual Rectifier was optimized to run with a quartet of 6L6s and when I powered it up that way, I was instantly convinced. It was also designed to work with a standard or oversized 4 x 12 loaded with v30s. Isn't it interesting how the v30s have an upper mid spike and the Dual Rectifier has an upper mid notch? I think it is also designed to work with very clear speakers that don't distort much. The idea is that the complex nuance of the high gain tones will be translated faithfully through those speakers.
Personally, after trying my oversized 4 x 12 it was obvious to me that Dave at Mills designed these oversized cabs with ported baffles to work specifically with high gain heads. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were designed specifically with the Dual Rectifier in mind. I find with the centre baffle, there is an additional measure of clarity which allows the complex nature of the Dual Rectifier crunch to be articulated even more clearly. It was amazing to me how the larger format of the cab along with the high power handling speakers really REALLY smooth out the overall response of the amp. It really isn't spikey at all.
The elastic sag of the quartet of 6L6s made the amp sound so much heavier and huge. Great for nu-metal and riffing styles of music. I still say pulling two tubes tightens and brightens things quite a bit, but it is more fun to play when fully loaded with tubes.

Generally, I'd say my tonal observation with tubes is this:
Higher wattage = Darker and less emphasis on mids. Much beefier. Say 4 6L6s. Dull clean.
Lower wattage = Brighter with more emphasis on mids. Tighter. (Say 2 EL-34s) Dull clean.
Vintage Amp = 2 El-84s = Brighter with even more emphasis on mids than EL-34s. Thin sounding and peaky in the treble.
Warm, bouncy, and chimey cleans.

[Edit] Good tones at bedroom volumes? Since most of the gain tone is generated by the preamp, it is possible. Generally a good practice to observe is to adjust the gain as you adjust the master. As the master turns lower, you should turn the gain up to compensate for the loss of gain saturation. As the master is turned up you can compensate for the increase in gain by turning the gain knob down to maintain maximum attack, sustain, tone, and clarity in the tone.

 

[screamingdaisy]

The elastic sag of the quartet of 6L6s made the amp sound so much heavier and huge. Great for nu-metal and riffing styles of music. I still say pulling two tubes tightens and brightens things quite a bit, but it is more fun to play when fully loaded with tubes.

This is why I keep gravitating back to 6L6s in a Dual Rectifier. I hit that age where music suddenly becomes important at about the same time that Metallica released the black album, and in many ways that remains to me the ideal heavy rhythm guitar tone. I know that Metallica never used Rectos on that album, I find the Recto gives up black album style big/heavy guitar tones easier than a Mark does.

 

[YellowJacket]

The elastic sag of the quartet of 6L6s made the amp sound so much heavier and huge. Great for nu-metal and riffing styles of music. I still say pulling two tubes tightens and brightens things quite a bit, but it is more fun to play when fully loaded with tubes.

This is why I keep gravitating back to 6L6s in a Dual Rectifier. I hit that age where music suddenly becomes important at about the same time that Metallica released the black album, and in many ways that remains to me the ideal heavy rhythm guitar tone. I know that Metallica never used Rectos on that album, I find the Recto gives up black album style big/heavy guitar tones easier than a Mark does.

I hear you. The EL-34s add a midrange bark that is really attractive but when you pop in 6L6s, the amp does so many of 'those' tones that you hear on modern records. I find with the Dual that when I try to make it into a blues / crunch amp, it starts to protest. I really have not found any low gain tones that work exceptionally well, not unless I crank it. (Yellow Jackets + Red Channel, Red to vintage, with the gain down at 9:00 and the master cranked into power tube clipping is interesting)
Not surprisingly, the amp comes alive when running with 6L6s and the tone stack set all at 12 noon. You just have to turn the gain up for low volume but as the master approaches 9:30 through to about 11:00, you can set the gain just a hair past noon and it does this wicked high gain menacing crunch tone that is awesome. I'm now toying with the thought of boosting it with a Maxon OD808 or Tube Screamer to get into those KxE modern tones. The amp also begs to be played in a certain way. When you really dig into the strings and use more full and unique voicings, the amp responds well. So much of what you hear is in the feel of how you play your guitar, not how the amp sounds if you play a simple power chord and just wack the strings as solid state players are liable to do.

My issue is that when **I** started paying attention to rock music, Nirvana, Sound Garden, Greenday, The Offspring, etc., were all popular. In fact, everybody at my school was listening to Nirvana and Greenday those days. So there is really this subliminal desire I have for a Marshall, even if I love my dual and really enjoy playing heavy music.

 

[screamingdaisy]

The amp also begs to be played in a certain way. When you really dig into the strings and use more full and unique voicings, the amp responds well. So much of what you hear is in the feel of how you play your guitar, not how the amp sounds if you play a simple power chord and just wack the strings as solid state players are liable to do.

I agree. It's surprisingly reactive to how you hit the strings. I think it's due to the slower response... it gives you time to drag every possible nuance out of the pick scraping against the string before letting go, and I can get a surprising array of different palm mutes out of it simply by varying the way I attack and palm the strings.

One of my favourite pickups for the Recto is the EMG 81. It's bright, articulate, and can cut through gain like a hot knife through butter to produce punch and clarity like no other pickup. Maybe not as pleasant as other pickups, it's extremely percussive and the single most effective pickup I've used for sledgehammer riffs.

 

[YellowJacket]

I agree. It's surprisingly reactive to how you hit the strings. I think it's due to the slower response... it gives you time to drag every possible nuance out of the pick scraping against the string before letting go, and I can get a surprising array of different palm mutes out of it simply by varying the way I attack and palm the strings.

I would go so far to say that you can control the tone more by how you play the guitar than by how you dial in a sound. I think the thing I like best about the Dual Rectifier is how responsive it is.

One of my favourite pickups for the Recto is the EMG 81. It's bright, articulate, and can cut through gain like a hot knife through butter to produce punch and clarity like no other pickup. Maybe not as pleasant as other pickups, it's extremely percussive and the single most effective pickup I've used for sledgehammer riffs.

Hmm. My friend was running EMG 81s in his one guitar and he had a Dimebag Daryl Sig SD in the other. It made the amp get tight and heavy very fast. I found the Bare Knuckle Rebel Yells to have a clarity, articulation, and breadth much moreso than most pickups I have played.

Today I went to the local L&MQ and tried a few amps with my guitar.

Electra Dyne: I like the combo better than the halfstack for one reason only. It is less LOUD. The amp seriously was drowning everyone out of the store and this is when I was turning it DOWN. Definitely my favourite out of all the amps I tried. My favourite mode was Vintage Lo with the Gain trim switch set to clean. I had the volume at about 2:30 and the master was hardly on at all. Super crunchy. The Vintage Hi is better for lead playing but it doesn't get as saturated as Mark Vs or Dual Rectifiers. The Vintage Hi also works for a more modern rhythm tone.

I could really hear the Bare Knuckle PUPs. They added a lot by way of high end articulation to the tone. They just have this smooth biting edge that stock electronics do not have.

Vox Nighttrain: I wanted to try something quieter but it really wasn't. The gain tone was surprisingly similar to what you'd find with a high gain head (in pentode mode) but it just didn't have the same depth to the sound. More midrangey. I like it and almost ended up renting it for fun.

Stiletto Ace: Sounds like a Mesa. I didn't play it long because I didn't have much time. I was just surprised how it was less marshall than I was expecting. A guy I talked to told me not to bother trying any Stiletto amps because they sound just like 'marshalls'. I don't buy it.

Orange Tiny Terror: Each time I try this little head, I like it more. It had that same sort of saggy feeling as the Dual Rectifier as well as a nice clarity and complexity to the chainsaw like crunch. It has more of a raw tone than a mesa as well as a decidedly British vibe. I can tell I could get used to it but I'm put off by the fact Orange is popular right now and really not all THAT different from what I currently do.

Overall assessment.
Electra Dyne is still number one by probably a substantial margin. I'd only opine that is hasn't enough gain at low volumes. I'd get the 1 x 12 combo hands down, or I'd try it with my own cabs. I don't like the projection of a 4 x 12 much right now. (I don't need it) The smoothness of the gain is really incredible. The cleans and gain are both very musical and the reverb sounds great.

Orange Tiny Terror is definitely my number two. It gets in the ballpark of what I like and what my needs are. Tonnes of gain and it responds extremely well to the volume knob. Not really that much quieter than my Dual Rectifier though. I personally don't like how buzzy Orange cabs are. I'd rather try that head through my oversized 2 x 12.

The Vox and Stiletto are both great but I didn't spend enough time with either to get a great sense of what they are about. ESPECIALLY not the Stiletto. Therefore, I do not have a definitive opinion.

Now here's the weird part: I thought every one of these amps, regardless of wattage, was very buzzy/ fizzy at low volumes. This was without exception. It was annoying to say the least. Strangely enough, I don't know that I can say any other amp I tried is de facto better than my Dual Rectifier and I think that my dual was set quieter at 100 watts today and it sounded phatter at lower volumes than what I tried at the store. Of course there are confounding variables, such as 4 x 12 vs 2 x 12 which might really change things, but at the end of the day I really am not sure exactly what I am going for, aside from being able to turn my amp up and letting it RIP! The 'Dyne is awesome but it is fair to say that I have no use for that much power. That being said, getting a 15 watter just downsized the overall girth of the tone without affecting the volume. You know, unless you want loads of power tube distortion. When considering everything, I just end up more confused than ever!!! I think my desire of that more british 'crunch' holds true but it is most likely something I'd like in ADDITION to what I have now. I'm confused!

 

[cscotto]

The elastic sag of the quartet of 6L6s made the amp sound so much heavier and huge. Great for nu-metal and riffing styles of music. I still say pulling two tubes tightens and brightens things quite a bit, but it is more fun to play when fully loaded with tubes.

This is why I keep gravitating back to 6L6s in a Dual Rectifier. I hit that age where music suddenly becomes important at about the same time that Metallica released the black album, and in many ways that remains to me the ideal heavy rhythm guitar tone. I know that Metallica never used Rectos on that album, I find the Recto gives up black album style big/heavy guitar tones easier than a Mark does.

I completely agree with this. In fact, I will go so far to say that Mesa designed the dual recto with Black album tone in mind. I know that it started its life as a SLO 100 clone, but notice the path tone took after the pre 500 DRs. To me, it moves closer and closer to the Black album tone. I also think this is why all the debate between pre/post 500 centers around the amps lead capabilities. Anyway, just my .02.

 

[Silverwulf]

All of my Rectos have had stock Sovtek's in the power amp. My Rev G Dual has Sovtek 5881/6L6 flat base tubes I put in it, and my Triple Rev F has the original Sovteks from '92 in it. I just cranked it up to 11:00 on the volume at an outdoor gig in DC this weekend, and it smoked. Even chugging in Bb, it was tighter than Oprah's pants after a twinkie binge. Sovtek 6L6's work perfect in Rectos IMO. It's what they we're designed with, because they lack bottom end. I get a kick out of people who drop in 6L6's with a huge bottom end and then complain that their Recto is boomy and try to dial out low end. Well, of course it is! Stop using tubes that have an extended low end with an amp that's already heavy in the low end, haha. It's like taking a glass of sweet tea, adding in a few tablespoons of sugar, then complaning it's too sweet.

 

[YellowJacket]

All of my Rectos have had stock Sovtek's in the power amp. My Rev G Dual has Sovtek 5881/6L6 flat base tubes I put in it, and my Triple Rev F has the original Sovteks from '92 in it. I just cranked it up to 11:00 on the volume at an outdoor gig in DC this weekend, and it smoked. Even chugging in Bb, it was tighter than Oprah's pants after a twinkie binge. Sovtek 6L6's work perfect in Rectos IMO. It's what they we're designed with, because they lack bottom end. I get a kick out of people who drop in 6L6's with a huge bottom end and then complain that their Recto is boomy and try to dial out low end. Well, of course it is! Stop using tubes that have an extended low end with an amp that's already heavy in the low end, haha. It's like taking a glass of sweet tea, adding in a few tablespoons of sugar, then complaning it's too sweet.

No joke. The Bare Knuckle pickups in my Les Paul also have a bass cut on them which further tightens things up. I found I used to run the bass back on my head but since I got the new pickups in my Les Paul, it sounds fantastic. Is it just me, or is the clean actually really good on the Rev F Dual Rectifiers? Perhaps it is a bit dull compared to most MESA amps, but it certainly is miles ahead of the competition, especially when it comes to High Gain heads. I was playing clean today and I thought it sounded great!

 

[screamingdaisy]

I found the same thing with bass cut pickups, although in my case I went the route of the EMG 81.

It's always kind of bugged me when someone with a Recto is asking for advice on pickups and the immediate suggestions are all these high output pickups... usually with high output bass. Maybe I'm wrong, but my personal opinion is that most of these were designed with driving the front end of a Marshall in mind, and not with driving the front end of a Dual Rectifier in mind.

Which leads me to my next point... for a long time I didn't understand why everyone was saying you needed to boost a Dual Rectifier to get a tight/modern metal tone out of one. I've been playing metal for years with one and never once had an issue with tightness. It wasn't until I started using passive pickups again that I put two and two together and realized that all these dudes needed an overdrive to re-shape the tonality of their scooped mid/bass boosted pickups.

 

[cscotto]

I found the same thing with bass cut pickups, although in my case I went the route of the EMG 81.

It's always kind of bugged me when someone with a Recto is asking for advice on pickups and the immediate suggestions are all these high output pickups... usually with high output bass. Maybe I'm wrong, but my personal opinion is that most of these were designed with driving the front end of a Marshall in mind, and not with driving the front end of a Dual Rectifier in mind.

Which leads me to my next point... for a long time I didn't understand why everyone was saying you needed to boost a Dual Rectifier to get a tight/modern metal tone out of one. I've been playing metal for years with one and never once had an issue with tightness. It wasn't until I started using passive pickups again that I put two and two together and realized that all these dudes needed an overdrive to re-shape the tonality of their scooped mid/bass boosted pickups.

If I am reading your post correctly, I agree with you. I use EMG 81s and I have never really needed to use a boost for tight metal tones. The resonant frequency of an EMG 81 is 2.25 Khz, which may account for a good amount of the fizz and be a good reason to turn the gain down a bit.

A pickup that falls into your second category is the DeMarzio Super 3. I loved those pickups when I was playing Mark amps because they had buckets of bass.

 

[YellowJacket]

I found the same thing with bass cut pickups, although in my case I went the route of the EMG 81.

It's always kind of bugged me when someone with a Recto is asking for advice on pickups and the immediate suggestions are all these high output pickups... usually with high output bass. Maybe I'm wrong, but my personal opinion is that most of these were designed with driving the front end of a Marshall in mind, and not with driving the front end of a Dual Rectifier in mind.

Which leads me to my next point... for a long time I didn't understand why everyone was saying you needed to boost a Dual Rectifier to get a tight/modern metal tone out of one. I've been playing metal for years with one and never once had an issue with tightness. It wasn't until I started using passive pickups again that I put two and two together and realized that all these dudes needed an overdrive to re-shape the tonality of their scooped mid/bass boosted pickups.

I'm running a Seymour Duncan Custom Custom in the bridge of my Godin LG. It has an EQ of Bass: 3 Mids: 7 and Treble: 7. Interesting, huh? Like I said, the Rebel Yells have a very similar EQ curve as well. Both these pickups go a long way to tighten bass and add percussive thump while playing.

If I am reading your post correctly, I agree with you. I use EMG 81s and I have never really needed to use a boost for tight metal tones. The resonant frequency of an EMG 81 is 2.25 Khz, which may account for a good amount of the fizz and be a good reason to turn the gain down a bit.

A pickup that falls into your second category is the DeMarzio Super 3. I loved those pickups when I was playing Mark amps because they had buckets of bass.

A boost does give more input than a pickup alone and it really does add a certain harmonic richness to the amp. That being said, the proper guitar and pickup can do metal STOCK with a Dual Rectifier. I think I've talked about 'Strat Guy' before but I'll mention it again. He was whining to me that his strat with single coils could not do Ozzie. He said the tone was too 'chunky'. I told him he needed a proper pointy axe and that the amp would respond in kind. The Dual Rectifier is just fairly sensitive to guitars, just like any good tube amp. It is just a task to attempt to get a profitable combination of Guitar, Pickups, Tube amp, Speaker cab, and Speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

Regarding boost pedals, I've never really liked the way they sound with the Rectifiers (or anything). Call me a tube snob, but to me they always add a certain unpleasant fizz. The perfect guitar / pickup combination always seems to sound better than transistors.

As for tubes, 6L6s all the way in the Rectifiers! EL34s are my weapon of choice for anything biting and middy without a huge bottom, but 6L6s work so perfectly for depth in the Rectifiers. I did try a KT88 / 6L6 mix once that was great for really powerful chugging, but a little bit of sag is what I think makes these amps have the character they do.

As for cabs, you just can't get the same tone out of a 1x12 / 2x12 that you do out of a 4x12. Part of it is the internal volume, but a lot of it too is how the speakers interact with each other. When you wire up a quad, their responses are changed and phased by just a minuscule amount. I love the effect!

Regarding low volume playing, IMO it's just not possible to get great tone out of a quiet setup. With higher volumes, the speakers begin clipping ever so slightly. They're technically distorting, though not the way most thing of speaker distortion. This results in a slight "swirl" in the high end, turning what was fizz into pure, sweet, thick tone. Then there's the effect of interacting with the speakers' physical movement. You just can't get that power out of a quiet setup.

As for types of speakers, I've moved to a full stack of 25w Scumbacks (G12M clones). I've used V30s for a long time, but for me, they just don't sound as "natural" next to the greenbacks. What I've also realized is that the parts of a speaker enabling it to handle more wattage add weight to the cone. That translates to a "stickier" feel at high volumes than the lower power speakers. Of course, it's really impractical to tote around a full stack - even a 4x12 sometimes - but for me, I just can't get away from the sound!

Anyway, if I could recommend one thing to you, it would be to try out an original 2204 (50W) or 2203 (100W) Marshall if you haven't already. I thought the Stiletto and Electra-Dyne were pretty cool amps, but a good JCM800? Nothing like it.

 

[Melodyman]

Boosted Recto's produce just as legendary a sound as boosted JCM 800's imo. Sometimes you just need a little more pushing the front end.

In fact I prefer a boosted amp with less overall gain (or gain turned down) to a higher gain amp with all the gain built in or wound up, it's more articulate and not as smeared sounding in many cases.

 

[YellowJacket]

Anyway, if I could recommend one thing to you, it would be to try out an original 2204 (50W) or 2203 (100W) Marshall if you haven't already. I thought the Stiletto and Electra-Dyne were pretty cool amps, but a good JCM800? Nothing like it.

You're right, gotta turn the amp up enough so the speakers respond. It need not be THAT loud, especially with a greenback cab or a 2 x 12, but it isn't exactly whisper volumes either.

Volume IS an issue though, and Mesas tend to sound better at lower volumes than marshalls do. That being said, I agree with you. I should DEFINITELY try out a JCM 800. I'd prefer the 50watt version, I think but it is a question of where to find the stupid thing.

Boosted Recto's produce just as legendary a sound as boosted JCM 800's imo. Sometimes you just need a little more pushing the front end.

In fact I prefer a boosted amp with less overall gain (or gain turned down) to a higher gain amp with all the gain built in or wound up, it's more articulate and not as smeared sounding in many cases.

Well, a Dual REctifier is DEFINITELY an iconic sound. It is really the benchmark for high gain. That being said, I am being advised to look at JCM 800 because I want a marshall-esque crunch!!