Back to the big daddy Mark V

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Ok, I've got a test for you guys. After seeing that schematic, I figured out what IMHO is a fair way to compare solo mode on vs off. It's not setting the Solo level lower than that master, because it still boosts volume at anything other than all the way off.

So tonight, I tested all three channels, several different volume levels, used clean-fat-crunch-Mark I- Mark IIC+MarkIV and Extreme, normal home volume, louder and loud for home. I did this test with two guitars with the highest end, most transparent pickups I have (PRS NF3 and PRS Custom 22 Semi Hollow LTD with 57/08s). I tested for an hour. IF you turn the solo volume all the way down, there is absolutely no change in volume whether engaged or disengaged. When you do that, no matter what channel or mode or what volume level, there is absolutely no change in tone whatsoever. I sat 8 feet from the 2x12 Vertical Recto cab, no effects on, none in the loop, nothing, just guitar and amp. There is no difference at all. However, as soon as you turn that solo knob up even a little, the tone gets fatter and fatter because it is getting louder and louder. I switched the solo button on and off 200 times tonight. Again, when solo is completely down, no difference whatsoever. As soon as you turn it up, yes, it's different.

So... I put a boost in front of the amp and set it to match the level of the solo knob when at about 10:00. Clean boost in front sounded very similar, but not exactly the same (makes sense, since the solo is well into the signal chain vs. the pedal out front of the amp) but they did very similar things... fuller, punchier, louder... Boost in the loop would be a more fair test of this, but I proved what I needed to know about solo for myself. That is simply this... if I want the punchier tone the solo button adds, I can get it by turning the amp up, and then I still have the solo function available if I want to use it for solos.

Didn't try loop on or off, this was only to test the solo switch. I encourage you to try this yourselves and let me know what you find. Next test will be the loop on vs. off.

 

[APEMAN]

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[Nicklotsaguitars]

I'm looking at those schems and see that both connect both lugs to ground via the switch.
Also why are Mesa confusing the issue and using 2 different symbols for what are essentially the same thing. Variable and adjustable resistors.
There are no filtering happening after the volume controls going into the PI in the Mesa diagram. The schem I posted is a generic idea to implement into any amp. So wouldn't contain any other components or the parallel effects loop.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

So, my results were incomplete. Off, NO effect, but on, it does more than just a flat boost. There is some frequency shift or boost other than a flat level increase...

 

[Nicklotsaguitars]

Dunno mate. I always favour louder. There's certainly nothing going on in the schematic that shows any filtering of any kind specific to the solo control. Unless the added resistance is strangling a bit more bass. I doubt that's the case though.

I was reading an interview with Cliff Cooper years back. He was bemoaning how the first Orange amps were knocking out 120watts of power. Yet didn't sound as loud as a stock 59SLP that he measured at knocking out 76watts of power at max.
He took it to the boffins at Cambridge who a month later, after loads of tests concluded that the human ear recognises distortion as pain. And so distorted sounds occupy more attention from the ear. The Orange amps didn't distort.

Dunno about you but I'll freely admit to being a volume junkie as much as I am a gain junkie. Perhaps we're all a bit masochistic

 

[dlpasco]

I really don't know what's going on with the amp internally, I just know that I prefer the tone with the fx loop disabled or when I'm regulating the volume with the solo control.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Ok, I didn't know which was the correct schematic and thought it was being said that the real one had some filtering that cause a frequency shift with the solo knob, which could account for why some think it sounds better. My test just confirmed that all the way off, where it isn't boosting volume, it doesn't change the tone. I can spend some more time with the solo on, vs off with an increase of the channel volume knob. Last night I only did that a couple times quickly but it sounded the same either way once I brought the channel up to the level the solo was at, volume-wise.

Just trying to learn more about the amp here, Appreciate everyones thoughts and input.

 

[dlpasco]

Just trying to learn more about the amp here, Appreciate everyones thoughts and input.

No worries from me. I'm feeling stupid that I missed the potential of this amp the first time around and am trying to understand it myself.

After all, this was my post from about year ago talking about how much better IIC+ mode was on the V25 for me than on the 90 Watt Mark V http://www.grailtone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=70296

Once again, @screamingdaisy appears to have been right all along: fx loop issues made a big difference.

 

[Nicklotsaguitars]

I could go with the FX loop idea. The past couple of weeks I've just been hauling the combo around with no effects at all. Not even a tuner. And thought, "this thing is sounding more mega than usual" last Sunday. I put it down to the room I was playing in. And never thought about it until reading this. It turned out I'd knocked the loop switch. What can I say, not turning knobs is habitual with me. Even the volume control

 

[APEMAN]

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[Dreamtheaterrules]

I really don't know what's going on with the amp internally, I just know that I prefer the tone with the fx loop disabled or when I'm regulating the volume with the solo control.

I think that's why it's so cool (for me) to talk this stuff out with some of you guys. I've always been interested in this amp, and in years of reading about it, I've read some things about the Mark V that were just plain wrong. Some negative things I've read, I had figured out when I'd had the amp for 3 days. People have different tastes, so when someone says "I didn't like it" or "I could never get great tones out of it" I say, fine move on. But when guys go on about being Mesa fans and Mark fans and then say it's not good, I always wonder why they couldn't bond with it. It's a complex beast. Many things in there, and they all matter. Let's face it, there are LOTS of guys who, like you, didn't love it and flipped it. I met one guy at TGP that said he had one for 6 months and always liked it but never "loved" it and figured an amp that expensive should blow you away. He sold it to a friend and heard it later and it blew him away. He asked what the guy did and he said he replaced a few tubes that were shot and just went through the whole thing when setting up his tones. He said that other than tubes, he didn't know what the guy changed, but he ran right out and bought another one and it's been his main amp since then. He said the second time around it was the amp he'd dreamed of when he bought it the first time.

I think (hope) that the stuff we're talking about now solve some of the things that some people never solved and we all get a bit better understanding of how to utilize the amp. Heck, if you guys teach me something that pulls even better tones out of this thing, I'll love you forever! :lol:

 

[dlpasco]

I totally agree with you. I feel the same way.

I played my Mark V for about seven hours yesterday. I can't believe what a tone monster this beast is.

I think that's why it's so cool (for me) to talk this stuff out with some of you guys. I've always been interested in this amp, and in years of reading about it, I've read some things about the Mark V that were just plain wrong. Some negative things I've read, I had figured out when I'd had the amp for 3 days. People have different tastes, so when someone says "I didn't like it" or "I could never get great tones out of it" I say, fine move on. But when guys go on about being Mesa fans and Mark fans and then say it's not good, I always wonder why they couldn't bond with it. It's a complex beast. Many things in there, and they all matter. Let's face it, there are LOTS of guys who, like you, didn't love it and flipped it. I met one guy at TGP that said he had one for 6 months and always liked it but never "loved" it and figured an amp that expensive should blow you away. He sold it to a friend and heard it later and it blew him away. He asked what the guy did and he said he replaced a few tubes that were shot and just went through the whole thing when setting up his tones. He said that other than tubes, he didn't know what the guy changed, but he ran right out and bought another one and it's been his main amp since then. He said the second time around it was the amp he'd dreamed of when he bought it the first time.

I think (hope) that the stuff we're talking about now solve some of the things that some people never solved and we all get a bit better understanding of how to utilize the amp. Heck, if you guys teach me something that pulls even better tones out of this thing, I'll love you forever! :lol:

 

[dlpasco]

I took a stab at the Master of Puppets tone this weekend, as one does: https://soundcloud.com/dlpasco/master-of-puppets-mark-v

This was in Mark IV mode, recorded with a CabClone.

IIC+ sounded great but I didn't have enough material salvaged from rehearsal to come up with a clip yet.

 

[dlpasco]

I have been very authoritatively informed by Mesa support that there is NO WAY that the solo control would make an difference in tone compared to the output knob. Disabling fx loop: certainly? Floor coupling: definitely? Solo volume control: nope.

So, there's that.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

There is that!

You saying you liked it better is what started my search for what it did. So I learned something about the amp when you were saying it sounded better with solo on. Hopefully what I posted the other night, and maybe a little in future findings will allow us both to get the the tones we want without the solo, then can can retain use of it for actual solos, or just volume boosts as needed.

(I actually didn't initially prefer it for it's intended function, because, like a lot of flat boosts, when you boost level it actually makes the bottom end more prominent, which is something I don't want for soloing. My solo boost function on my PRS Custom50 does the same thing. I prefer to add mids/upper mids/lower highs for solos. Every flat booster I've tried in front of the amp, boosted bottom as well due too the level increase. So when you initially said it sounded better with solo on, I knew immediately what you meant. It's fuller and fatter, but it's just a level volume boost).

Need some time to figure out the loop thing.

 

[Nicklotsaguitars]

I still go with the "we all prefer louder" theory.
You can even take it to attenuators. I use a pretty basic Marshall Powerbrake. That yeah, knocks a load of high end and attack off. As you increase attenuation.
But, I've played around with the THD Univalve amp a lot. And found similar unappealing highly attenuated sounds. That don't lose high end. Similar with the VVR (variable voltage regulation) mod on more than a couple DIY amps.
Even those Weber Mas attenuators with their treble correction controls, don't sound as good as an un-attenuated amp.
I put it down mostly to the speaker not moving as much air in the end. If you listen to all those late 60's rock songs. They're all speakers pushed to their very limits.

If you switch your Mark V down to 10 watts you notice the sound starts to mush a bit and needs the EQ setting. Conversely think of all the class A amps you heard. Only the Fender Champ really springs to mind as not being very sharp and defined sounding. Until you get the things running on 10.
I'm sure a lot of it is down to speaker power not properly matching output of the amp. My Class 5 will happily handle a 4x12. But sounds like garbage doing so.

 

[barryswanson]

I took a stab at the Master of Puppets tone this weekend, as one does: https://soundcloud.com/dlpasco/master-of-puppets-mark-v

This was in Mark IV mode, recorded with a CabClone.

IIC+ sounded great but I didn't have enough material salvaged from rehearsal to come up with a clip yet.

Dude! Can you please share those puppets settings please?

 

[dlpasco]

I took a stab at the Master of Puppets tone this weekend, as one does: https://soundcloud.com/dlpasco/master-of-puppets-mark-v

This was in Mark IV mode, recorded with a CabClone.

IIC+ sounded great but I didn't have enough material salvaged from rehearsal to come up with a clip yet.

Dude! Can you please share those puppets settings please?

Off the top of my head, basically:

Gain: 3:30pm
Master: 9
Presence: 11:30
Treble: 2pm
Mids: 10:30
Bass: 10

Eq: Massive V - broke all the rules here and spiked the low and high slider, dropped 750 to the bottom.

THEN added a parametric EQ and notched at about 1kHz as well. That's where it went from "good, but missing something" to "oh, crap, that's it"

I pretty much did the same setup using Mark IV mode/Pentode and Mark IIC+ mode/Triode. Both sound great.

 

[barryswanson]

Thanks I'll try that in the morning! Why you no play jp-2c?

 

[dlpasco]

Thanks I'll try that in the morning! Why you no play jp-2c?

I sold it this afternoon.