Recomendations please- Guitar for high gain tones- long post

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Deaj

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Hello all,

This request is for something I'm not all that familiar with but very interested in. I'll preface the request to follow with a brief description of what I do, what I'm used to, and why I'm looking for something so different. I play mostly blues style guitar with a good bit of attention to subtle dynamics for expressive changes. I'm used to low output pickups - PAF and early Strat single coil type. I use both fixed bridge and traditional non-locking trem bridges. My primary amp is a Fuchs ODS-50 combo. I'll lean towards rock or fusion (a'la Steely Dan) and have picked up ideas from both and infuse them into my approach where they seem to fit for me. The Fuchs works perfectly for all of this. I've pretty well stayed close to these preferences for most of the 30 or so years I've played.

Recently I picked up a Mesa Mark V as a second amp primarily for recording with different tones than I get with my primary rig. After spending some time getting to know the amp I'm beginning to take an interest in the high gain sounds this amp is capable of producing. As aggressive as these sounds are they're also very musical and expressive and I'm interested in exploring the possibilities in this area.

The one thing I lack at this point is a guitar well suited to these types of sounds. The PAF's and mid 50's type single coils I use now provide some very delicate details that translate beautifully through the Fuchs even with high gain overdrive. These details, however, seem to get lost or buried through the Mesa's high gain lead channel at higher gain settings. I have heard guitars played through this type of amp at high gain that produce amazingly expressive detail, maintain note separation and definition for rhythm parts, and provide a singing, full voice for single note soloing all while offering what sounds like a similar level of expressive detail as I'm used to having in the Fuchs and my current guitars.

What I'm looking for at this point is a guitar / electronics package that will give me a similar level of expressive control and, for a lack of a better description, more forward and aggressive detail / character. I'm not interested in blowing a ton of money on a guitar for this purpose but, at the same time, I don't want to waste money on a mediocre guitar. If the instrument is not inspirational to play I'm likely to lose interest relatively quickly and go back to what I'm used to. Here's a checklist of must-have's for this guitar:

* A neck with some meat to it - the super thin necks (Ibanez style) are uncomfortable for me to play.

* Prefer an oil finish or satin finish neck (not a deal breaker - I can acclimate to any finish).

* Jumbo frets, or at least tall frets, are preferred.

* Good fretwork - no sharp edges felt along the edge of the fretboard (doesn't have to be Anderson, Lull, etc. quality - just good production work).

* A non locking traditional floating trem style bridge that holds tuning well (no Floyd's - don't care for them). I have a Hipshot 2-post floating trem on my strat that holds tuning perfectly. I don't do anything aggressive with the trem, just subtle vibrato on some chords and single notes as another expressive tool.

* Locking tuners (not a deal breaker if not included - this is an easy add-on).

* Bridge humbucker + ??? - whatever you feel works well with the bridge pickup and produces clear, warm neck P/U tones.

* Pickups that will provide the above described results for high gain tones and also work well for clean tones.

* Flexible electronics preferred (2-pickup with a three way selector, a coil tap switch, volume, and tone controls for example - I just like to have some flexibility at the instruments controls). This is a secondary concern to having great bridge and neck pickup tones.

* Not concerned with body/neck/fretboard wood types just so long as the end product is clear and detailed sonically and matches up well with the electronics.

* Also not concerned with looks (body style, finish color, etc.) except where ergonomics are concerned. If it's comfortable to play then it's good to go.

* I'd like to keep my total cash outlay to a maximum of $1,200 if at all possible. All of my guitars were purchased at or below this price and all are amazing instruments. I can't see spending more especially for an experimental instrument. If you have a suggestion that's just a bit north of $1,200 that you think is an ideal fit I am interested. I want to remain flexible enough to make sure I don't miss out on a perfect fit due to an arbitrary line in the sand.

* I'd also much prefer suggestions for readily available guitars, guitars I can find locally and demo. I've had more disappointing experiences than good ones purchasing instruments sight unseen so I've stopped doing so altogether.

I apologize for the long winded post but I'm really hoping to get some focused suggestions I can use to help me find an instrument that will allow me to explore these new (to me) sounds and see if they're something I can put to productive use in the future. I won't have a lot of time to burn on this. Work is going to take a lot of my time for a while and the holidays bring a lot of family activities with them. I want as much of my remaining free time as possible to be spent with my wife and son. If I can, in the midst of all this, work on finding a guitar for the above stated purpose so much the better.

Any and all suggestion are greatly appreciated!
 
Sounds like what you are looking for is a set of new pickups not a new guitar. I see you already have a Musicman and PRS those fit your description fairly well. When reading your requirements, the guitar that came to mind for me was a PRS Standard Satin. http://www.prsguitars.com/standardsatin/index.html I played one of these at GC last week and was seriously impressed. I've seen a few used in your price range.

I'm not sure what you have now but you might want to go the less expensive route and grab a nice set of high output pickups for one of the guitars you have. I added a set of Seymour Duncan pickups to my Les Paul and it's a monster.
 
i was thinking the same thing about just needing a pickup swap. personally i would recommend trying a steve's special or Tone Zone in the bridge. the Steve's Special is a well balanced with a somewhat high output, the TZ is similar with a more pronounced bottom end. but if you decide to put a new pickup in the PRS you may was to look at something less low-mid heavy since the guitar itself probably already accentuates those tones, so i'd probably recommend some pickups by Bareknuckles, i havent tried any of theirs but the clips i have heard have been excellent.

if you decide to go with a new guitar i can say that i've been impressed with the import PRS models for the money, i mainly think this is a good choice because of build quality and that you are probably already used to that type of neck. then i'd invest a bit more and upgrade the pickups and tuners and nut.

theirs lots of ways to get to what you want, but i doubt you'd have to spend $1200 for it, especially since its new territory for you. youd probably be able to get what youre looking for and all the necessary upgrades for a bit under $1k.
 
I very much would like to avoid swapping pickups on my existing guitars as both are exactly the way I want them for what I use them for most.

* My PRS is a 1st run CE24, 1988 I believe. It's an unbelievably loud resonant guitar that has only improved throughout the years. I never dug the stock HFS/Bass pickups and it took many swaps and almost 20 years to find the ideal set. It now has a pair of Seymour Duncan custom shop Seth Lover PAF's (hardware is potted to reduce micro-phonics, coils were carefully would tight with no potting). These pickups translate the acoustic qualities of the guitar perfectly and what little micro-phonic tendencies these pickups have actually add to the character without causing uncontrollable squealing feedback.

* My USA Custom Guitars homebrew 'super strat' (medium lightweight alder body, maple/maple neck) has a Lindy Fralin Unbucker PAF in the bridge and Fralin Real 54's strat style single coils in the middle and neck positions. The Unbucker has imbalanced coils and the higher impedance coil splits for the out of phase position 2 on the 5-way blade switch - splits better than most PAF's I've tried and works pefectly to blend with strat pickups. The only change I have planned for this guitar is the fret wire. I went with vintage sized frets when I put the guitar together - something I was used to from my first guitar many years ago and with other strats that followed. My preference is shifting to taller frets (already installed on the PRS) and I may have a refret done when these require leveling.

I use these guitars for blues, classic rock, and fusion type tones and they're just right for these tones.

I might consider putting together a second pickguard together with high gain pickups more ideally suited for heavy distortion and install quick disconnects for the output and ground leads so that swapping pickguards between string changes is an easy process. The USACG strat does seem to be the right guitar with the wrong pickups for heavier music. I'd likely switch to brass anchors and machine screws for the pickguard mounting screws as the more frequent removal/replacement would increase the likelihood of stripping a screw hole in the wood (alder is pretty soft).

The only downside to this approach is that I lose the other configuration when I swap pickguards. I'd like to have both readily at hand at any given moment, each for its intended use.
 
A lot of the high-gain guys are playing basswood bodies with EMGs. Even though this combination won't look the way you like, it might give you the sound you want.

I think you might want to consider a locking trem. Sure, you hate them when you play Steely Dan, but as soon as you get the high gain disease, dive bombs are not far behind. :mrgreen:

Also, might be a good chance to try out a 7-string. Seems it's either that or put on 11-60 and tune to drop C.

Or, you might not need to change at all. Put an OD808 or TS9 in front of the Mark V with drive down and level cranked. That may give you what you want with the guitars you already have. This is a very common method to get definition at high gain.
 
a pair of Lawrence L-90's would do you right.
pretty cheap fix...
add the Q filter, and you've got a pretty variable tone palette.
 
here's my USACG custom:

fullsideavy.jpg


it has a lawrence L-500 in the bridge.... and a pair of L-280's in the neck/middle

you can hear the bridge pickup, on the tune i posted in rigs and tones
 
You should check these cats out. Find the style you like then click on the build your own tab.
http://www.carvinguitars.com/index.php
 
Definitely Carvin.

My 7 string by them is awesome for high gain tones, but also excels at clean. the walnut body adds so much unique character to the tone. But they have SO many options, and there quality/price ratio is unmatched.

Their necks are not ibanez thin, but have a good balance of comfort and speed. Mine is a little thicker than my flying v neck.

Check them out, i could easily spend an hour convincing you to get one for what you are looking for.
They have many different types, like strats, double cuts, les paul types, all with most of the same options for wood, frets, satin/oil finishes, pickup configs, etc!
 
yep, got me a carvin too!!

LOL

'cept i got mine back in 1984.

but i never liked the electronics (pickups)

i gutted mine, and put in a Duncan Custom custom in the bridge.
big improvement.
but i'm thinking of gutting it again, with a lawrence L-90 in the bridge, and a L500C in the neck...
 
Ok, I put some time in today trying to shape the amps voicing and gain structure around the guitar / pickups (USACG H/S/S strat) and, using the Mark V mode in channel 3 on the Mesa I've got a sound I'm very happy with. All of the subtle detail I'm used to with this guitar is there, note separation is there, and it's literally dripping in harmonic overtones. It's also a better transition from channel two than any of the settings I've messed with so far. I'm sure I'll continue to dial it in as I go but it's 95% of the way there right now!

I've received several suggestions to continue working with the amp before looking to another guitar. Following this advice is paying off wonderfully - thanks! :) Turning knobs and flipping switches is much cheaper than buying another guitar. To be honest I don't want/need another guitar - I'm very happy with the two I have now. I'd just assumed that neither was well suited to high gain / heavy tones. Turns out the strat works really well for this.

Thanks for all of the suggestions guys! I'll still be checking some of these out when necessity (strings, picks, etc.) has me at a store.
 
Yeah, I'd say stick with what you have. I find low/medium-medium gain pickups tend to sound better through high gain amps if you're looking for super articulate sounds. Mesa's take some time to dial in correctly; I don't know how the Mark V is, but on my Express 5:50 I find that it's essential to lower the bass (unless you're using an overdrive or volume booster, in which case I lower the gain and turn the bass up some).
 
Sorry mesagod I disagree. What you need deaj is an esp eclipse, emg's or duncans is a matter of taste. Try to get your hands on one of those and give it a little playing time. You'll end up loving it. If you don't like the les paul bodyshape Then there is always the esp horizon nt II. Do a little research and you will find the right guitar.
 
My brother-in-law just got a handmade ESP Horizon NT II and it is by far the best playing guitar I have ever had my hands on. Hands down.

It may sound stupid, but I could play things I can't play on my own guitars. The Duncan JB in the bridge sounded OK, but would put a set of Duncan Blackouts in it if it were mine. Just my 2 cents.
 
fluff

For a little time period I had duncan blackouts in one of my horizons. Having them removed was a mistake that will be remedied soon. I a/b emg stocked horizon with my duncan blackout stocked one. Identical guitars same amp cable and cabinet. The main difference was that the blackouts had all the clarity and balls in the room that day, they made the emg's sound fizzy.
 
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