NAD: Mesa Boogie Mark VII head. WOW

[playingitloud]

I found the trick with the Roadster, Mesa 1990's 12AX7 Chinese Military 6N4-J Bejing Square foil getter tubes. Then top it off with the STR440 reds. Holy crap that amp now rips. Has a tighter low end and not so swampy with the sub harmonics such that I was able to use the 7 string guitar with it, no external aids like boost or distortion pedals. Same preamp tubes and then switched to the STR445 yellows, they were a bit over the top and killed the use with the 7 string but it was a beast on its own. I am glad I did not sell the Roadster, it has much more to it than I though. I did try using a parallel 39k resistor on the cold clipper to see if that would have much effect with a dop to 19.5k on the cathode, it neutered the amp completely, no more distortion and sounded like crap. Too much of a shift in the load line and raised the operating point more central so it was no longer creating the distortion in the cut-off region. Bad move unless you change the plate resistor too. So what if the cold clipper has less gain, it is not the gain that creates the distortion, it is where the operating point is on the load like that matters. No point in messing with it as it was prefect without the mod. Just the change in preamp tubes had a more desired effect.

Have not explored the STR445 in depth with the MWDR yet. I still like the STR440 grays in that amp.

Back to the topic at hand, Mark talk

I actually love both the Mark VII and the JP2C. Each have their own take on how the tone stack effects the level of distortion (what everyone calls gain). JP2C pull on the CH2 gain knob, almost feels like there is a shift in the opposite direction but not. You lose a bit of that detail but it is something useable, just have to dial the amp in differently. CH3 is the trick with the gain pull or pushed in. It is one of the few Mark amps that has the ability to switch from IIC+ to (IIC+IV) characteristic. Not a boxy sounding amp so change in power tubes just gives you that same good stuff. It may behave differently at bedroom level (STR440 and STR443 both have more low end bloom at reduced volume settings, compensate with the Shred mode) but more predictable or balanced tone with the STR445, STR448 and STR415 (running at bedroom level will have a similar tone like you get at gig level and no need to compensate using the shred mode).

I found the Mark VII to take on a boxy like tone with the STR415, STR448 and the STR440 tubes. Did not try the STR443. I did give the STTR441 a go and they sounded good, different than the 6CA7 tone you get from the STR445 which is to my liking actually. STR454 (=C=6L6GC sounded really good in the VII too, hard to get so I do not use them much, same would apply to the STR415).

I was not aware they were shipping the Mark V90 with EL34 tubes. I thought the Stockers to be the STR441 tubes. I did try the other tubes with the Mark V90 ice pick machine. I did not personally like any of them except for the STR441 or SED =C=6L6GC (Mesa STR454 tubes).

The MKV was a used amp that came with EL34's.

I wish that I would have checked to see what version of Mesa Boogie EL34's were in it before I sold the amp.

 

[bandit2013]

I would agree with what playingitloud said.

JP2C clean is just that, no frills sort of fat clean. You can dial it up to grind a bit but not with the gain control, you need to boost the midrange to get the clean to clip. How much chime you get from the clean is more dependent on the power tubes you are using. I do often run the JP2C with the gain dialed back so I can take advantage of the dynamics on CH2. I tend not to run with the footswitch so dynamics matter. I can still roll back on the guitar volume to clean up a moderate gain setting on the JP2C. With that said, I can also do the same thing with the Mark VII. That trick also works well with the older Mark amps too. Depends on how you dialed it in.

Mark VII has some moderate gain modes: Crunch, and IIB. Both can be used for heavier style or backed off. The two clean modes can be driven into clipping with the gain control. Almost to the level of the crunch with the gain dialed back.

VII, IIC and IV modes are more moderate high gain distortion and compression. Much like the JP2C or even the Badlander. There are no rules that one set the gain to 3pm. On the fly in a gig, you may need to use one of the other channels for an alternate grind or clip, depends on what it is you are trying to do with it. There is a bit more flexibility with the Mark VII to cover a wider range of gain structures without having to re-dial the amp. Rolling back on the guitar volume if you have passive pickups works great. Actives, probably not as effective.

 

[bandit2013]

The MKV was a used amp that came with EL34's.

I wish that I would have checked to see what version of Mesa Boogie EL34's were in it before I sold th

Ah, I see, it would have the STR441 (Russian Tung Sol 6L6) as the stock tube if it was a Mark V90. They are about as short as a 5881 tube but a little fatter. Getters are on the side of the plate on side of the tube. They look funny but it does not matter where the getter flash is, it just maintains tube vacuum as long as it remains silver or black in color. I took this picture when I tried them out in the JP2C after the STR440s starting making noises. They sounded lame in the JP2C but really good in the Mark V90 and not so shabby in the Mark VII.

I thought you sold or traded the Mark VII for the KSR Colossus amp? Or was that the Mark V you traded. If it was the V, that was a good deal. If it was the Mark VII, not sure how to comment but no matter, you can always get another one if you wanted it.

 

[bandit2013]

IMO, Stereo is a lot easier (and sounds better) if you just go full W/D/W and add in a stereo power amp instead of slaving another tube amp. I wish I would have picked up a Matrix GT800FX years ago.

No slaving of amps here. All of the amps in the rig are run in parallel, separate inputs on the front end of each amp but are managed by a buffered ABY switcher (Mesa Switch Track, I have two of them so I can run the 4 amps all at once or select which I want to use).

In the FX loops of each amp, I can either use a stereo FX unit like the Strymon BigSky, Timeline, or Boss DD-200 or any of the other effect units that have a stereo input and output.

I am old school so I prefer to have separate effects vs the units that have everything like the Helix, Neural Cortex, HeadRush or others. At best they can be used as a stereo unit but then that would be slaving into another amp for the stereo channel.

I guess at times one amp may be slaved into the other based on the stereo effect transfer of signal content to the other channel that is not active or not selected by the ABY switcher. Most of the time, I use the Mesa ST in all on mode.

 

[playingitloud]

Ah, I see, it would have the STR441 (Russian Tung Sol 6L6) as the stock tube if it was a Mark V90. They are about as short as a 5881 tube but a little fatter. Getters are on the side of the plate on side of the tube. They look funny but it does not matter where the getter flash is, it just maintains tube vacuum as long as it remains silver or black in color. I took this picture when I tried them out in the JP2C after the STR440s starting making noises. They sounded lame in the JP2C but really good in the Mark V90 and not so shabby in the Mark VII.

View attachment 3441

I thought you sold or traded the Mark VII for the KSR Colossus amp? Or was that the Mark V you traded. If it was the V, that was a good deal. If it was the Mark VII, not sure how to comment but no matter, you can always get another one if you wanted it.

I had two MKVII's (one was a head and the other a rackmount).

I traded the head for a KSR Colossus and sold the rack mount locally.

I had decided to sell the rack mount once a brand new JP-2C (two weeks old) became available at a pretty low price.

I had sold the MKVII for $50 more than the price of the JP-2C.

The JP-2C just fits me more and I do have a MKV and MKIV that I need to start playing or start thinking about selling in the near future.

 

[bandit2013]

Which is better; a 2018 Mesa Recto 412 with V30 or a refurbished 1999 Mesa Oversized Recto 412 with EVM12L Black Label speakers? The cabinets are basically the same size, the angle of the EV loaded cab just looks wider but is not.

Lets just say they both sound good. However, the EV loaded cab has that sound I cannot get from the V30 cab. For clean, I would consider and open back 112 with the EVM12L Classic as that really sounded great. As for the smaller footprint, the Recto Vertical 212 with the stock V30 speakers is also good. Tried the EV speaker in one of those, wired as 4 ohm and it was ok. Too bad the EV speakers do not come in a 16-ohm impedance, or I would be using them in the Vertical 212 cabs.

I am surprised have not run the Mark VII through the EV loaded cab before today. Moving stuff around in the studio as I will have a full house this coming week. Needed the extra room and the two 412 cabs take up less room than four Vertical 212 cabs. I will be running the Badlander on the V30 loaded cab and the Mark VII on the EV loaded cab. Will see how this turns out.

 

[bandit2013]

Since I was thinning out the wall of sound to just two amps, this weeks jam session will have guests so more room the better. Badlander and Mark VII, I wanted to hear how the Badlander sounded with the EV loaded cab. Not all that bad. I much prefer that amp with the V30 cab. I had the one that matches the RA100 if the EV loaded cab did not pan out.

 

[bandit2013]

Just for laughs, I had set up one of the Badlanders on the V30 loaded 412 and the Mark VII on the EV loaded 412. We had a guest for our jam session who played drums so I was free to play the guitar with the other guitarist who prefers the Badlander. He dialed it in with a very low volume setting but boosted the gain all the way up. It sounded great actually. Nice thick juicy tone that was grinding away with ease. Sure enough, I tried to blend in with lead only to find that my sound was too clean when I tried to match the volume of the other amp. I was on Mark IV mode too. I had to roll back on the guitar volume to get to the same level or I was drowning everyone out going to a higher volume on the guitar. I felt that the Mark VII had too much headroom before it saturated into bliss. I could had dropped the power level down to 45W or 25W, the Badlander was set to 100W. So what gives? Ah, it is the input sensitivity of the Mark VII compared to the Badlander. That I did notice when running the two amps. Midway in our jam session, I unplugged the Mark VII and got out the other Badlander from the storage area. At least I was able to match gain characteristics and volume levels that way. Shortly there after, I took over on the drumming and the visitor took over on lead. Very interesting jam session. Not only did this person have talent on the drums, he was good on guitar too. If we ran the amps the way I do, there would have not been any issue running the Mark VII with the Badlander. I am not hard of hearing, but I do run the amps on the loud side. I guess that explains a few things. My neighbors that are a block away had commented a few times. Are you the one who plays the guitar? Wait, what? Can you hear me all the way over here? Oh yeah, we have enjoyed it when you play. The problem is, I do not always play during the day. Sometimes late at night. So far, I have not been reported for disturbing the peace. That is a good thing. I guess I need to consider I may be playing too loud and dial things back when the time is between 1am and 6am.

Still the Mark VII delivers the goods, so does the Bad. Perhaps I need to go back to the Vertical 212 cabs for better volume management. the 412 cabs are much louder for sure.

 

[bandit2013]

Odd, the Badlander seems to be the players choice. Perhaps it is due to its simplicity. Any non-Mesa user can dial it in. Unlike other amps I have in my collection, that person who comes over to play guitar for the jam sessions just gets confused with the multi-channel amps. He is not a gear-head. There are not many guitar players I have come across that fear the amp as much as this one person. One amp was confusing enough, running a stereo setup was more intimidating. I don't get it.

No big deal. At least I can enjoy the amps I have. I fear not but want more. Wonder what the next best thing from Mesa will be? If they ever did a re-run on the Road King I may have to get it. For now, I have adopted the Mark VII more of a go to rig for me. The BAD is great too but liking the 7 a bit more. Need to figure out how to dial in that reduced volume saturated tone like you can get out of the BAD. I could not set the volume control any lower as it was in the cut out region already. Seems like you can drive the BAD volume much lower than the Mark amps.

 

[Theresa]

Wonder what the next best thing from Mesa will be? If they ever did a re-run on the Road King I may have to get it. For now, I have adopted the Mark VII more of a go to rig for me. .

The two are so different it really is refreshing to be able to choose one or the other and not just one..... the have distinct characteristics due to the design platform and the RK IIb is truly an amazing amp. I am so fortunate to be able to play through them both as well as the Mark lineage. Amplifiers are very much the voice of the guitar and I'm constantly reminded that it's not the guitar but rather the amp that defines tone.

 

[bandit2013]

Tone may be attributed to the amp, but it is more or less the guitar player making that work. If you like what you are hearing, you put more effort into playing. The guitar matters more than one would think it does. More so due to comfort with the instrument coupled with the ability to grow with that instrument the better the amp will sound. Talent helps too but that comes with practice.

That Road King is nice. Almost a match for the Mark VII. Other than the progressive linkage and the dual FX loop, how much different is the Road King to the Roadster? (Assuming that you omit use of the EL34 tubes. )

 

[Theresa]

Tone may be attributed to the amp, but it is more or less the guitar player making that work. If you like what you are hearing, you put more effort into playing. The guitar matters more than one would think it does. More so due to comfort with the instrument coupled with the ability to grow with that instrument the better the amp will sound. Talent helps too but that comes with practice.

That Road King is nice. Almost a match for the Mark VII. Other than the progressive linkage and the dual FX loop, how much different is the Road King to the Roadster? (Assuming that you omit use of the EL34 tubes. )

No doubt but in my experience the connection is drawn to the guitar because it is an intricate part of the tactical connection between the player and instrument. Ultimately though, you can make a crappy guitar sound great through a good amp but hard to do with a crappy amp and a great guitar. (Of course I'm assuming you know how to play and know what you're doing).
Oh... Talent? Talent=perseverance. It's the 10,000 hour rule.

Road King is a more flexible and complicated amp compared to the Roadster. As you noted, the progressive linkage, cab selector, among other nuances including loop setup I find the Roadster a stripped down, no nonsense version of the RK. I use EL34's quite frequently and that is the only drawback the VII has. I have to use one or the other. Not a combination. In my older Marks, I configure the power stage with EL34's in the outer position with 6L6's in the centers. You can't do that with the Mark but you can with the Road King. I found Phillips (Blue Label) 6L6GC's and Svetlana winged C EL34's work best in the C+ and Sylvania 6L6GC Svet EL34's in the III and IV. But that only comes into play when you really drive the amps. It's those 12AX7's that are my bane of my existence. (If you know what I mean)

 

[Theresa]

Odd, the Badlander seems to be the players choice. Perhaps it is due to its simplicity. Any non-Mesa user can dial it in.

.... Seems like you can drive the BAD volume much lower than the Mark amps.

Perhaps it's due to the amp having EL34's? LOL

 

[bandit2013]

Yes, in some way that is true. I believe it is more so due to having difficulty making it sound like crap no matter how you dial it in. The BAD is a fine tuned instrument that makes bad sound good. EL34 or 6L6 tubes. What ever your poison is, it does the job very well.

I guess the Mark VII is similar, that amp sounded really good with the EL34 tubes. Just not sure how long they would last as that typical boiler-plate comment on using the EL34 in the manual suggests not to use them. At least the STR445 tubes have that 6CA7 characteristic sound to them. Not sure which I liked better, EL34 or the 6L6 tubes.

 

[bandit2013]

No doubt but in my experience the connection is drawn to the guitar because it is an intricate part of the tactical connection between the player and instrument. Ultimately though, you can make a crappy guitar sound great through a good amp but hard to do with a crappy amp and a great guitar. (Of course I'm assuming you know how to play and know what you're doing).
Oh... Talent? Talent=perseverance. It's the 10,000 hour rule.

Road King is a more flexible and complicated amp compared to the Roadster. As you noted, the progressive linkage, cab selector, among other nuances including loop setup I find the Roadster a stripped down, no nonsense version of the RK. I use EL34's quite frequently and that is the only drawback the VII has. I have to use one or the other. Not a combination. In my older Marks, I configure the power stage with EL34's in the outer position with 6L6's in the centers. You can't do that with the Mark but you can with the Road King. I found Phillips (Blue Label) 6L6GC's and Svetlana winged C EL34's work best in the C+ and Sylvania 6L6GC Svet EL34's in the III and IV. But that only comes into play when you really drive the amps. It's those 12AX7's that are my bane of my existence. (If you know what I mean)

I know what you mean. Hmm, do you have any unobtanium tubes? Those Chinese square foil getter 12AX7 tubes (aka 6N4-J Chinese military 12AX7/7025) that Mesa used back in the 90's? I have a surplus from the Mark III era. They look like this:

I only bring them up as I found it transformed the Roadster into a better beast. Tightened up the low end and got rid of the sub-harmonic swamp. It did not kill the tone or character, the low end is still there but no longer drowns you out. First time I was able to run a 7 sting through the amp and actually like it. Still using the STR440 tubes in that amp. I have plenty of those to last a while. I found the Red bias color STR440 to be the bomb in the Roadster on top of the old Mesa 12AX7 tubes. The tube in the image does reveal it was used due to the discoloring between the two mica spacers, but it still tests as good. I also have some in better condition. I know they work as they were used in the Mark III. I got in the habit of replacing all the tubes once the EL34s showed signs of issues. Those were the first to go in the Mark III. That amp came equipped with the STR415 Sylvania and the STR416 6CA7 tubes. Those were the good old days when the tubes were of better quality or at least more affordable.

 

[Theresa]

I do have an assortment of "unobtanium" tubes from the 90's through present. I just don't have a lot of time to do tube rolling right now and the foreseeable future. I'm sure I'll get around to it soon enough though. I have some Ruby, NOS Shuguang, NOS Mesa SP's etc... We'll see what's in store.

 

[twintriode]

Curious Bandit,

Are you a metal player?

 

[bandit2013]

I do not limit myself to one form of music. Not a country music fan but there is some things you can learn from that too. I am open minded when it comes to music. Anything goes.

I go from blues, dirty blues, classic rock (Rush, AC/DC, Led Zeppelin, Scorpions, Judas Priest, Deep Purple, and Pink Floyd) to contemporary and progressive metal. I appreciate many styles of heavy metal if the riffs and overall sound is there. If it is thin and ice pick sounding as can be in the case of some 90's stuff, I will do that differently and not thin it out. Death Metal or Hate Metal, not really into the vocals of that music but sometimes the guitar sound is cool.

From drop tuned 6 string to a baritone 7 string. It depends on the mood or desire I have that day.

Nothing like the Roadster or MWDR to liven things up a notch. Then again, I may gravitate to the Royal Atlantic and just get lost into the depths of its gravity and not really paying much attention to what I am playing, just that I enjoy it.

Band-wise back in the 90's what was old but still on the radio it would be the classic rock music as those bands were my inspiration. Sometimes bands like Stixx, Boston, BOC, and Kansas may be of interest. I still play some of that music. Pink Floyd is more my deal, but I may go on the heavy side and change it up.

In my current band, I am the drummer so it is more AC/DC and Pink Floyd related. We recently brought in a new member with some major talents. I may play lead but will be with more Led Zeppelin songs. My band mates do not share the same likes I have so when I am on my own which is most of the time. I play what ever floats my boat. More of a dark sinister tone but would say it falls into the progressive metal arena. Queensryche, Tool, OPeth, Planet X. Fates Warning, Myrath, Textures, that sort of thing. Dream Theater would fall into that too. I do not listen to much music but there are times I find something interesting. Like that sound or what is being played. Sometimes I hear some cool songs when watching Anime, like Band-Maid, those girls have it, awesome stuff but I do not understand Japanese all that well. This track was on one of the shows I had watched (Log Horizon) so I looked for the credits to find out who made the music. What was interesting, and I thought I hear that voice of a Mesa, the lead guitarist runs a Dual or Triple Rectifier. The other is using an EVH 5150. This one is just the instrumental version of the song, I heard on Log Horizon ending.

 

[bandit2013]

Back in late 2012 and early 2013 I decided to get back into playing music again. Mostly due to a promise I made to my wife which was the last conversation we had before she passed away due to liver failure. The only time she ever heard me play the guitar was when I was getting the Mark III ready for sale to a friend at work just a month before that event. One thing lead to another and I wanted to try playing the drums and bass and bought a multi-track recorder. My focus was on a different form of music at that time. I had to give up playing back in 2004 due to an injury, I ripped the tendons in my left arm shoveling snow when I lived in PA. That ended my ability to play the guitar. For almost 10 years, during that time I sold everything I had except for a Carvin DC200, Mark IVB combo and the Mark III combo. I really did not have much gear back then to start with. More guitars than amps but they were easier to sell off. Tried to sell a mint 1988-1989 blue stripe Mark III combo for $400 but nobody would buy it. Now those sell for over $2k. I did eventually sell it in October of 2012.
The recorded stuff I have created is just some of the styles I play. I am much heavier in the rock end off the spectrum. I was learning how to play the drums and bass, along with figuring out how to record stuff. Most was done while recovering from a loss. That was a few years ago, it will be 12 years come this November.

Most of this is one-offs or experiments to see if it would actually work out. Sorry for all of the 12 string guitar stuff.

https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000

 

[twintriode]

Thanks for your detailed response. The reason I asked is because I've read all of your posts and some of your observations of the Mark V I didn't agree with and I was wondering how you came to those conclusions. In the end I just think its subjective. I get the ice pick sound you called out on the "edge" mode, but I think it is easily tamed by taking the tone of my guitar down to 3 then I think 1) the ice pick is gone, and 2) it sounds pretty decent. I do not find the "tweed" sound to be ice picky at all. In fact, I think its a decent representation of a tweed amp, but then it could be argued that my opinion is subjective. Which is fine because I would probably agree. The biggest thing for me on the Mark V is I think it probably sounds better as a head and closed back 4-12 setup. Maybe someday I will be able to confirm that. Even with that, my general preference for speakers is the 20w Greenbacks. I like them better than the typical G12M 30 75Hz's. Finding that in a 4-12 might be hard.

When I got my Mark V I felt that it was the best amp I have owned. I have owned several Fender's including several 60's black/silver bassman amps, a 1969 Bandmaster Reverb that had an awesome clean tone, one of those brown 90's Vibroverb Reverb reissues, and a 1966 Super Reverb. I found that Fender was not enough for me because they are single channel made to be clean amps. I don't like to front load amps so I always hated the drive sound on those amps because of pedals. In general I could not afford Marshall's back in the day because they were "the" hot amp and where I could buy black panel Bassman amps all day long for $125 a Marshall was (if I remember correctly) $400-600. I did, however own a 76 Marshall JMP Master Volume. I thought that amp sounded bad. First it was a Korg distributed amp from what I remember, and what they were doing at the time was deleting the EL34 power tubes in favor of 6550's. 6550's are a very ridged tube, and were not very flattering on that amp...again subjective, but not for me.

I am very much a guitar/amp player. I don't use effects at all. I rarely use the built in reverb on amps. When I saw this Mark V for sale at $1,400 I jumped all over it. I think any Mark you can get for that price is worth it. I usually only use channel 1 or channel 2. I almost never use 3 as 3 has too much gain for me. I do like the amp, but Mesa does pull some marketing crap with their amps. I remember thinking when I got the amp that it wasn't that loud. Eventually I hooked up my scope, tone generator, load resistor, and DMM and performed a little ohm's law to see what the output of that amp was. I don't have the results anymore, but I can say its nowhere near the advertised 90, 45, 10. No mode or channel was able to hit those outputs. That kinda felt like a trend with Mesa because I don't even need to measure a Mark V 25 to know there is no way that amp can do 25w. 2 EL84's are not mechanically capable of producing 25w.

In the end I subjectively would say that I have the best modern Mark. I like the non-repeated modes, I like the tube rectifier to be in the amp, I like the idea of the solo knob, Triode mode adds flavor, I like the variac mode, I have no desire for MIDI or cab clone features so the VII does not appeal to me. I also am curious to understand how they did the bias for the EL34's on the VII. There is this whole procedure that you follow on the V to use EL34, but on the VII you just flip the switch and you are good to go. They do really come close to trashing the idea of running the amp with EL34's in the VII the way the manual reads. "If you run the EL34 tubes plan on keeping a spare set of tubes with you and fuses". "The 6L6 in our opinion is a superior tube". Etc. I'm not suggesting the EL34 is better in the amp because I didn't really care for it, but I find it odd that they downplay using them in the VII manual or at least that is how I took it. Anyhow, thanks and I do like the write-up and even though I don't agree with some of it, it is interesting to read other perspectives.