Guitar volume control and output volume of amp

[john525]

Hello fellow express-heads. Recently I've been experimenting with the volume controls on my guitars with my Express 5:25 in an attempt to get more control on the level of overdrive right at my fingertips. I know a lot of people say they like to roll-down their guitar's volume to clean up the sound, and then roll-it on to dirty-it up. I can reproduce this effect, however the overall output volume of the amp also behaves accordingly - I might have a crystal-clear sound with the guitar's volume at, say 25%, but the output volume is way too quiet...so, I don't see how this technique is practical in a live setting.
I feel like I'm missing something in the gain equation.
FYI - I'm usually playing either a strat or a les paul through a handfull of pedals (Boss TU --> Ernie Ball Volume --> Boss Tremolo --> MXR Delay) into the 5:25 in 5W mode.
Thanks for any suggestions or comments!

 

[Moph]

I'm also curious about this. I run a Boss CS-3 compression sustain pedal which pretty much attempts to keep your guitar signal volume at the same levels, no matter how hard, or softly, you hit the strings, I've found it's really handy, almost essential... So, altering the volume on the guitar does little, because the pedal compensates for it and passes on a signal at the same level, but a possibly better quality signal as it wouldn't be distorted coming from the guitar if you hit the strings too hard? Hmm.. so I think it may be best to have the guitar volume at 75% if using a compression device?

 

[JUS]

It is not possible to send a distorted signal from the guitar.

 

[boogieman60]

The volume trick is this...turn your guitar volume all the way up and get the sound and max volume from your amp you want. Dirty or whatever...now roll the volume back to 7 or 8 and it should clean up a bit.

 

[Don]

I do this with vintage style amps and germanium fuzz pedals but not with modern gear. With the vintage style gear you set the amp to be distorted when the guitar is full volume and when you roll the guitar's volume back it cleans up without getting too much quieter. My Fender tweed Deluxe clone and Fulltone '69 Pedal both do this incredibly well.

Modern amps don't seem to do this as well. Maybe because they're often more powerful, more efficient and aren't working to the point where the whole amp (pre-amp and power-amp) are distorting.

 

[john525]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

boogieman60 - I can definitely get this effect, the problem is the drastic change in the overall output-volume of the amp make it somewhat impractical to do so.

Morph - I believe compression on the input signal would take us into a totally different ball-game, however, it does make me think about the natural compression achieved when tubes reach saturation. Perhaps this is part of the equation.

JUS - Very true. I can send an unpleasant signal from my guitar, but not a distorted one.

Don - what you say is very interesting, and again makes me think about tube-compression. Thing is, is it possible to get to this level with rattling the windows (even with the 5:25 in 5 watt mode)?

 

[Selsaral]

In my experience, everytime I change the amount of gain with the guitar volume knob, I also want an actual volume change. Going from rhythm to lead in a band situation for example. It's just a matter of getting the volume and gain to change the way you want.

However going from crystal clean to overdrive is just not practical with the volume knob in my experience. You'll need to change channels for that. I think if you have very high output pickups this might work better, but my guitars are all low-medium output.

Changing volume on clean sounds is obviously easy. Going from slightly dirty and medium volume to very dirty with high volume is easy, but the level of gain changes how it will react. It's heavily influenced by how much gain your amp is set for, the output of your pickups, and the type of volume pot you have.

It took me a lot of experimentation to get the volume to change the way I wanted along with the gain. Further, you have to do this experimentation with a band cause solo you just can't tell what you're getting.

In a medium-high gain song, guitar volume at max would be a good lead sound, and I'd roll it down to 2.5 or so for the rhythm sounds. It took months of practice to be able to move the volume knob quickly and precisely, but once I got it, it felt great.

In a very-high gain situation, like the burn channel cranked, I just couldn't control it, it's too compressed, and I'd need to switch channels from crunch to burn to get the volume changes I wanted.

In a medium gain song, it's max versus about 6 on the guitar volume.

On my telecaster with a different volume pot, it reacts quite differently.

So it works best in the medium gain areas, and worst at crystal clean and heavily overdriven.

I dislike how a compressor affected this. But a compressor in your effects loop might work better, I am actually just about to start experimenting with this myself.

 

[Rockerduck]

I believe we are talking unity level between effect. That is, distorted signal vs. clean signal at the same volume. As stated before, lead players play full on and back the volume down on the guitar for rhythm. As for unity, both at same volume, you need 2 channels of signal. One being a clean amp and a stomp box for dirt. This is how I do it in smaller venues. At larger events, I use two amps and an a/b pedal. These produce the same volume clean and dirty, if that is what you want. Backing the guitar volume does always lower volume.

 

[suhr+mesa=greatness]

@john525

There are two types of distortion: compression and overdrive; the latter of the two being the original. Most modern "distortion pedals" are simply attempts at reproducing (using resistors and capacitors) the sounds that players form the classic era made by cranking amps beyond where they were ment to go A.K.A. overdriving. And correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like thats what your goal is in using the guitar volume "trick"; you want to obtain distortion at the same decible level as your cleans. Don't take this as being rude but thats not the way it's supposed to be. Distortion is ment to be louder and if you really think about it, quiet distortion is weird to say and if you know what I'm talking about it just sounds... odd. Once you've come to grips with the fact that you cant get exactly what you want using this method read on and I'll explain why and how you might be able to get something close.

Disclaimer: this analogy is a simplified version of and does not cover many parts of the guitar/amp system for the greater good of making sense to all.

Think of you guitar as a spicket with the cable being a hose and the amp being one of those funnel things you screw on the end of the hose to fill up water ballons and spray your friends. In this case, the volume control on the guitar is the pressure valve on the spicket. When it's low, the water leaves the funnel thing no problem. But as you increase the pressure, entropy increases respectively and water exits the system in multiple directions... distortion. It's the same way with your guitar; however, the point of distortion will vary from amp to amp, setting to setting.

My suggestion on how to achieve the sound you want is to go to channel 1 crunch, set your master to the noon position and your guitar's volume all the way up, and adjust all the settings to your liking for medium distortion. Next, decide how much dynamics you want and dial you guitar's volume back accordingly and then adjust your gain and master to achieve the loudness you desire at just under the distortion breaking point and there you have it, clean at an audible level with piercing crunch at the twist of a knob! I would use channel 2 for solos with the master set such that it just slightly louder than channel one with the guitar dimed.

Hope this helps your tone hunt!

 

[JUS]

I will say this. On my board, I have two Ernie Ball volume pedals. One in front of the amp (preamp) and one in the loop (power amp). I use the crunch channel with gain and master about 12:00 o'clock. 5W mode. With a les paul, I can get real crunchy, or roll back my preamp volume to about half way to clean it up, with no appreciable loss of volume. If I go lower than halfway, I lose volume. This can be remedied by adding gain.

 

[FXR]

I spent a lot of time in 5w mode with my 5:25 Express too and had a similar experience. I play a Strat and since I'm handy with a soldering iron, I put the treble bleed mods in. http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/potm.htm Maybe something like that can help you out.

Oh yeah, in short, it makes the strat volume control work from 0 to 10 istead of how stock it goes quiet around 5 or 6 on many.

 

[Newysurfer]

I spent a lot of time in 5w mode with my 5:25 Express too and had a similar experience. I play a Strat and since I'm handy with a soldering iron, I put the treble bleed mods in. http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/potm.htm Maybe something like that can help you out.

Oh yeah, in short, it makes the strat volume control work from 0 to 10 istead of how stock it goes quiet around 5 or 6 on many.

well I don't like compression pedals as they ruin picking dynamics and squash your tone and I don't wanna be stuffing around with volume dials on guitars while I'm trying to play.
Plus if I wanna clean up the tone its better & easier to hit the footswitch to change channels or turn off a pedal.
But I do find volume pedals very useful and I like mine as No 1 so you can vary volume without overly cleaning up gain tones :mrgreen:

 

[FXR]

I spent a lot of time in 5w mode with my 5:25 Express too and had a similar experience. I play a Strat and since I'm handy with a soldering iron, I put the treble bleed mods in. http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/potm.htm Maybe something like that can help you out.

Oh yeah, in short, it makes the strat volume control work from 0 to 10 istead of how stock it goes quiet around 5 or 6 on many.

well I don't like compression pedals as they ruin picking dynamics and squash your tone and I don't wanna be stuffing around with volume dials on guitars while I'm trying to play.
Plus if I wanna clean up the tone its better & easier to hit the footswitch to change channels or turn off a pedal.
But I do find volume pedals very useful and I like mine as No 1 so you can vary volume without overly cleaning up gain tones :mrgreen:

I didn't like the compression pedal results for what I think you're trying to do either.

I don't like having to haul a pedal board and for the most part can use the volume control on the guitar to control the grit/gain/distortion of the amp to a good degree. If I need to switch channels, it's usually between songs, but I still use the guitar volume to go from rhythm to lead tone and volume.

At the house jamming alone this sounds like it wouldn't work, on stage mic'd it's all good for us.

Hope you find your thing. Peace.