4 cable method with your boogie....

[jdurso]

This is a two fold question:

1. Any one running the 4 cable method with your boogie?

2. If so what fx unit/setup are you using..... looking into the following units to use for the 4 cable method..... i like the sound of analog units but dont want a **** load of pedals and the imfamous pedal dance..... looking for an all in one unit that will add to my roadster.... and let me preface this by saying i dont have the money to blow right now on an eventide unit or an axe-fx or a g-system at the moment...

Vox ToneLab
Boss GT8
Zoom G9.1tt
G-Force or G-Major
Any others i should look into???

 

[fbomb]

what is the 4 cable method?

 

[ToneAddictJon]

The 4 cable method is putting your preamp inside an external fx unit. It's done by running your guitar into the input of an fx unit, the send of the fx to the amps input, the send from your amp into the fx unit's return, the the ouput of the fx unit into the amp's return.

This allows you to put your fx both pre and post preamp.

I've never gotten good results doing it, and if your planning on doing it I would just get a couple of pedals and put them in the chain where you want them. The one's on your list that you can afford (gt8, tonelab, g-major), I wouldn't even bother trying to do this with. You are gonna lose a lot of sound quality and it's very easy to get ground loops, and tons of hiss throughout the process. You are also not gonna have the abilty to switch channels and fx at the same time, unless you get a midi switching system for your amp as well.

 

[count_chocolat]

I play in a professional cover band, we go from funk to hard rock. With the Boss GT-8, I do it using my Rectoverb or my Stilleto ace and it works like a charm. I also use the GT-8 to change the channels as I change the patches.
I have gotten many compliments on my tone and how quiet my rig is, many guys I have played with, have stated that they have never heard such a quiet high gain rig!
There are 2 secret ingredients.
1) Is in the cables, I ONLY use BALANCED MONO cables (I make my own).
2) I balance the volume of each effect at everypoint in the chain using pink noise. I inject pink noise at the input of the GT-8, and I use the GT-8 internal meter to measure the volume after every stage through to the output (last stage) and ensure that the I am at unity gain EVERYWHERE...

BTW I also run a wireles 100% of the time and there is absolutely no difference. I also use pink noise to adjust the wireless gain.

My rig is dead quiet... Guitar to AKG wireless GT-8 to Mesa preamp to GT-8 to Mesa Poweramp to THD hotplate to speaker cab.

That's it!

Good luck.

 

[lockbody]

This is a two fold question:

1. Any one running the 4 cable method with your boogie?

2. If so what fx unit/setup are you using..... looking into the following units to use for the 4 cable method..... i like the sound of analog units but dont want a sh!t load of pedals and the imfamous pedal dance..... looking for an all in one unit that will add to my roadster.... and let me preface this by saying i dont have the money to blow right now on an eventide unit or an axe-fx or a g-system at the moment...

Vox ToneLab
Boss GT8
Zoom G9.1tt
G-Force or G-Major
Any others i should look into???

Of the ones you listed, I only know for sure that the GT-8 will do the 4CM. The G-Major and G-Force definitely don't (Although the G-Force manual explains how to do a pseudo 4CM.). My MK IV hissed liked crazy on the lead channel using 4CM with my GT-8, but the other two channels were bearable. Setting levels in the GT-8, an art in itself, is key. I don't kow what would happen with your Roadster.

The only answers to be had on the GT Forum was that some amps hiss and some don't.

 

[jdurso]

The 4 cable method is putting your preamp inside an external fx unit. It's done by running your guitar into the input of an fx unit, the send of the fx to the amps input, the send from your amp into the fx unit's return, the the ouput of the fx unit into the amp's return.

This allows you to put your fx both pre and post preamp.

I've never gotten good results doing it, and if your planning on doing it I would just get a couple of pedals and put them in the chain where you want them. The one's on your list that you can afford (gt8, tonelab, g-major), I wouldn't even bother trying to do this with. You are gonna lose a lot of sound quality and it's very easy to get ground loops, and tons of hiss throughout the process. You are also not gonna have the abilty to switch channels and fx at the same time, unless you get a midi switching system for your amp as well.

my amp gizmo is a midi switching system so i have that covered..... thats why i've been looking for a unit that would allows me to do it and take advantage of all the fx in the unit..... i really wish at this point the gsystem was a little less expensive because i think that would be the way to go for my purposes.... i played through on the other day through a RK at GC w/o the 4 cable method and it sounded great both in the fx loop and in front

 

[jdurso]

I play in a professional cover band, we go from funk to hard rock. With the Boss GT-8, I do it using my Rectoverb or my Stilleto ace and it works like a charm. I also use the GT-8 to change the channels as I change the patches.
I have gotten many compliments on my tone and how quiet my rig is, many guys I have played with, have stated that they have never heard such a quiet high gain rig!
There are 2 secret ingredients.
1) Is in the cables, I ONLY use BALANCED MONO cables (I make my own).
2) I balance the volume of each effect at everypoint in the chain using pink noise. I inject pink noise at the input of the GT-8, and I use the GT-8 internal meter to measure the volume after every stage through to the output (last stage) and ensure that the I am at unity gain EVERYWHERE...

BTW I also run a wireles 100% of the time and there is absolutely no difference. I also use pink noise to adjust the wireless gain.

My rig is dead quiet... Guitar to AKG wireless GT-8 to Mesa preamp to GT-8 to Mesa Poweramp to THD hotplate to speaker cab.

That's it!

Good luck.

so from what i got from that post you are using the 4 cable method.... where does the gt-8 put the fx loop in the signal chain.... from what i've heard a lot of the other units out there put it before the preamp fx in their units making it utterly pointless

also i'm not familiar with this "pink noise"... just wondering what it is and what do you mean by inject it?

 

[JoeEllison]

I don't know nothing about no 4 cable thing... I'm too damned lazy to try it.

I can tell you, though, that for my ears the Boss GT-8 is the best thing going. I've got or used to have a PODxt, a Digitech GNX3, a Korg Toneworks AX-1000, and the Boss.

I'm looking at getting a Roadster soon, so I hope you have some success with this, and can send me a diagram of what you end up doing!

 

[lockbody]

so from what i got from that post you are using the 4 cable method.... where does the gt-8 put the fx loop in the signal chain.... from what i've heard a lot of the other units out there put it before the preamp fx in their units making it utterly pointless

also i'm not familiar with this "pink noise"... just wondering what it is and what do you mean by inject it?

As with every other effect in the unit, you can assign the loop to any spot in the GT-8's chain.

 

[decosimo]

I have used the GT-8/4CM with an F-50 with decent results. The unity gain(as mentioned above) is important as well as matching all of your levels. Eventually I got tired of messing with all the volume changes etc. and just went to running it in the loop. To my ears it sounds better that way, especially at higher volumes.

IMO it can be done with good results if you set it up properly. It is a very versatile unit .

I never had any grounding issues or hiss, it ran very quietly.

 

[twostring]

I had a GT-8 (sold to fund a go at pedal building and tools) and I used it with my Roadster with no problems. Setting levels is very key, as someone posted earlier. If you set it up correctly, there are no tone loss issues. Also, with the buzz problem, that can be corrected by resetting levels (you want absolute unity gain in and out of the GT-8 at all times) and using the noise supressor on the GT-8, which is a great feature.

 

[Goldwing]

I have a GT8 and a F50. As decosimo sayed, the 4CM runs ok but you need to work very hard with the levels until you find the right spot.

The Biggest problem with the 4CM is with parallel loops, particulary the mesa's loops which goes only to 90% wet. With these kind of loop there is always some part of the signal that not goes to the processor.

In my experience is better to run the Gt8 in the loop (for modulation and delays). Or you can place it in front of the amp and use the GT8's loop for individual stompboxes.

I'm curious about the use of Balanced mono cables with the GT8. AFAIK neither the GT8 or the Loop in the Mesa are balanced inputs, so the use of balanced cables would be useless doesn't it?

cheers!!

 

[jdurso]

my only issue i have with putting the unit in the fx loop is that you can really only use the time based fx .... things like filters and distortion boxes in my experience sound pretty bad in the unit and to spend 400 on a unit to only use certain fx kind of defeats the purpose... maybe the answer is buying two units... one for the fx loop and one for before the amp but it would be nice to have a unit that could do both.

 

[ToneAddictJon]

I just run every effect in the loop, except distortion/boosts. I don't think there is a right or wrong of where to put fx in the chain, just preferences. If you try it in the loop and it all sounds good to you, then it works, or if you try it in front and everything sounds good, then that works. Mike Einziger runs all of his fx (including delays) in front of his amps and I think he has great tone through his fx this way, but it doesn't work for everyone, and he also doesn't use any fx on most of his distorted tones. Be open to experimenting with different things as well with fx. When I feel like using fx, I'll run (in the loop) a delay-phaser-chorus-reverb-delay and get some very cool sounds going on, but I never use anything but delay and maybe wah live.

 

[count_chocolat]

Sorry been out for a little while.

Pink noise is a standard audio signal which is used to standardize or evaluate audio systems. It can be downloaded from the net for free, just Google "pink noise". Or you can use Wavelab which has a noise generator.

With the GT-8 you can place the effects loops anywhere you want in the signal chain, it's up to you.

I recommend that you download and read and eat the GT-8 manual, all will be revealed.

Remember that balanced cables and individual effect volume balance after every effect stage is the key.

"I'm curious about the use of Balanced mono cables with the GT8. AFAIK neither the GT8 or the Loop in the Mesa are balanced inputs, so the use of balanced cables would be useless doesn't it? "

Balanced cables are essential, no doubt about it...! It does not matter if your device is balanced or not, it has everything to do the cable length and protecting it from outside interference.

If more guitar players were in tune with these issues, whether you are using analog vintage effects, analog outboard, digital or multieffects units. There would be much less guitarist complaining about noise and wasting their hard earned Dollars on noise supressors and power conditionners.

Good Luck in your quest.
[/quote]

 

[plan-x]

If you don't put your chorus and delay in the loop, their mix will increase with distortion thus sounding more pronounced. You could also set up cheap pedals for the basics like a bad monkey, behringer(delay), nobels (OD), Johnson(chorus) etc. I get a great sound with some of the guys on the 4 cable method. Also a cheap vol. pedal say at $25 at AMS first in the loop will keep tone and distortion consistant. Lets face it rolling back your vol. knob kills the full throttle sound and looses band vol. consistantsy(garage!) If you put an all in one unit(boss) in front of the amp, if and when you engage your overdrive ch the effects become more pronounced thus increasing the balance of chorus and delay etc. Not professional(garage) In the loop would be better, but that equates to a 3 cable method.

 

[rainsong86]

I play a Boss GT-8 with a Roadster in 4 cable method... I'm using Pedalsnake G2 cables for all of the connections, including a connection to the Axess CFX-4 midi box I use to control the 4 channels (this unit also solved my channel switching-lag problem too)... there is little to no noise (unless I'm up close to the half-stack with an insane amount of gain of course) and there are no crazy hissing effects since the roadster has a SERIES effects loop.. a series effects loop is the key to 4 cm.. if you have a parallel effects loop you won't be able to fully 'separate' the pre amp from the power amp and put the pre amp's signal in the effect processor's loop

I realize that putting a somewhat cheap effects processor in between such an integral stage of an amp harms my tone, but only somewhat.. you really only notice a difference if you look hard for it in an A/B test.. I'm sure that no one (especially non-musicians) would notice a difference between an initialized patch with my roadster and the roadster in the most pure "effects loop hard bypass" mode.. I hate tap-dancing and I'm NOT going to buy 6 to 8 effects pedals and a bradshaw-type switching system to control them when I can have an assortment of effects with their own parameters for each patch

btw there are major reliability issues with the G System... I had one at one point and it broke down (luckily) within the first week of at-home operation.. horrible for a 1500 dollar device.. the G System was basically tailored to 4 cable method.. too bad it doesn't work for most people

 

[jdurso]

so it sounds like a lot of people using fx units like the ones i mentioned are using the gt-8..... looking at the manuals of the gt-8 and the gt-pro leads me to believe the gt-pro my be more suited for a 4 cable method as one of the loops looks like its more or less dedicated for a preamp.... just wondering if the better routing of the pro is worth the extra $$$

i do wish however the axe-fx either came in a less expensive pure fx unit without all the modeling because that unit is sick.... played my friends today and the fx are up to par with an eventide..... the amp modeling is also so good.... he just got a 2:100 to use with it and OMG!!! unreal sounds... but they still haven't nailed the boogie tones.... they always sound too fizzy.... i know boogies are known for their sizzle but why do all amp modellers, even ones as good as the axe-fx envision boogies with all this sizzle in them... maybe i didnt tweak it enough... i dont know.... but to me if i had 1400 to blow on fx that thing would be mine and i'd never look back..... but i guess for now the gt-8 or pro looks like a better investment

 

[scottkahn]

I'm running a TC Electronic G-System with the four-cable method and my Road King II. It works amazingly well once you get your levels dialed in right.

Scott

 

[JoeEllison]

Well, I tried the 4-cable thingy... and it sounds great with my cheapy amp and my Boss GT-8.