What's the differences between gain and sustain??

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shredding

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I heard people here say "yeah the amp has a lot of gain but not long enough sustain". Dont you have longer sustain when you have more gain?

Comparing my recto to my mark IV with the same guitar and cab, my mark IV has a ton more sustain than the recto. But people here still say Recto has more gain than you need. I always feel like I need to put a OD in front of my recto to achieve the same level of sustain as my Mark IV.

Explainations?
 
I'm not a pro at this, but I think sustain (note duration) is more affected by the guitar than anything else, but the gain helps a lot to keep the note going longer.
 
Sustain is achieved by having the right resonating frequencies in both guitar and amplifier. If say, you had a guitar with a decent amount of sustain un-plugged, paired it with an amplifier (A Mark Series), the amp would regenerate the same frequencies until feed back started. Now, if the amp does not compliment the same frequencies as what the guitar is playing, you wouldn't have as much sustain. (Like a Recto at low volume). You can compensate by adding a pedal, turning up loud, adding more mid's to your lead channel ext. What these are doing is enhancing the same spectrum as your guitar, regenerating it, and giving you one long note like a giant loop.
 
shredding,

RE: "Dont you have longer sustain when you have more gain?". Yeah, you usually do, but as fishyfishfish explained, it's not an exact 1:1 ratio. The Rectos actually have more raw gain than is useable on tap, in that, with the gain knob all the way up, the tone is actually too muddy for most uses. Yes, the sustain is improved, but in the case of the Recto, it is still not particularly impressive. Therefore, it may not be possible to achieve desireable levels of sustain merely by turning up the amp's gain.

The most common, and the most powerful, way that sustain is increased, regardless of the method to achieve it, is to add compression to the raw signal. An amp's preamp tubes do this by adding more gain to the signal and taking advantage of the fact that vacuum tubes will naturally compress a distorted signal. Boosters will add sustain by simply increasing this process in the amp's preamp tubes by providing a more powerful signal to the preamp. The preamp then adds gain, and the resulting compression, to the signal, resulting in more sustain.

Overdrives work somewhat differently. While they do provide a net signal boost (in most cases), they also boost and distort the original signal and additional harmonics, thereby adding in compression within the pedal itself. The compressed and boosted signal then leaves the pedal and hits the preamp tubes where, as before, even more gain, and therefore compression, can be added.

Another option is to rely exclusively on distortion and compression of the signal by the use of a distortion pedal. Such pedals usually offer a net increase in overall signal level (i.e., a gain boost), but rely primarily on the creation of signal distortion by 1) the addition of harmonics above the fundamental of the signal, and 2) the conversion of the entire signal to (usually) square-wave signal output. The circuitry of most distortion pedals is such that it adds significant amounts of compression to the distorted signal. Running the pedal's distorted signal into the clean channel of an amp does not usually result in any further appreciable amounts of either gain or compression, but distortion pedals are quite often capable of generating impressive amounts of sustain by themselves.

The addition of a compressor pedal, whether relying on the amp alone, an overdrive + amp, or a distortion + amp, will add even further amounts of compression and therefore sustain.

The choice of method in achieving the sustain you want is often a matter of tone preference as much as a strict comparison of which method produces the most sustain. For example, a compressor pedal run into a distortion pedal then into a high-gain preamp with the gain knob maximized will yield the greatest sustain of the options described. However, tonally, most people would consider the sound of such a signal to be completely unuseable, with no dynamics, indistinguishable note articulation, and a noise floor so high that the signal itself is hard to discern.
 
Thanks Chris for the extensive explaination. That makes a lot more sense now. When adding a OD, I can clearly hear all the higher harmonics being added in.

the mark IV has a lot more sustain compared to the DR. This is possibly b/c it has more compression. Also if I turn the gain up on the Mark IV, the overall sound's still smooth and not muddy only if it's too high it will feedback.

When people say high gain, they don't actually mean sustain but rather a highly distorted crunch sound?
 
RE: "When people say high gain, they don't actually mean sustain but rather a highly distorted crunch sound?". It's hard to say, given that people's individual knowledge of what the terms actually mean varies greatly. Among the most accurate uses of that term is as a reference to amplifiers with a large amount of available preamp gain, such as the Recto, which usually involves having at least 3 12AX7 preamp tubes.
 
fishyfishfish said:
Sustain is achieved by having the right resonating frequencies in both guitar and amplifier. If say, you had a guitar with a decent amount of sustain un-plugged, paired it with an amplifier (A Mark Series), the amp would regenerate the same frequencies until feed back started. Now, if the amp does not compliment the same frequencies as what the guitar is playing, you wouldn't have as much sustain. (Like a Recto at low volume). You can compensate by adding a pedal, turning up loud, adding more mid's to your lead channel ext. What these are doing is enhancing the same spectrum as your guitar, regenerating it, and giving you one long note like a giant loop.

That actually made a whole lot of sense. I never thought about it like that.
 
Just to chime in on the "High Gain" I think the term is used broadly to describe an amp that gets most of distortion from the pre amp as opposed to the power amp. The Who, Live At Leeds album is a good example of power tubes being pushed to the brink, and trust me, those old Hi Watt amps have to be very, very loud to sound like that. In the 80's Lee Jackson and Jose' and a couple other dudes were adding an extra 12ax7 to the front end of the pre amp, to get Marshall's over the top with out killing the front row. Enter the birth of "HIGH GAIN AMPLIFIER". Kind of like saying "Kleenex" or "Pipe Wrench".
 
fishyfishfish said:
Just to chime in on the "High Gain" I think the term is used broadly to describe an amp that gets most of distortion from the pre amp as opposed to the power amp. The Who, Live At Leeds album is a good example of power tubes being pushed to the brink, and trust me, those old Hi Watt amps have to be very, very loud to sound like that. In the 80's Lee Jackson and Jose' and a couple other dudes were adding an extra 12ax7 to the front end of the pre amp, to get Marshall's over the top with out killing the front row. Enter the birth of "HIGH GAIN AMPLIFIER". Kind of like saying "Kleenex" or "Pipe Wrench".

Sort of like a cascading gain preamp, aye :wink: .

Oh yeah, my amps will sustain without mucho gain introduced into the preamp, but I play them somewhat loud with a Les Paul :lol: .
 
fishyfishfish said:
Just to chime in on the "High Gain" I think the term is used broadly to describe an amp that gets most of distortion from the pre amp as opposed to the power amp. The Who, Live At Leeds album is a good example of power tubes being pushed to the brink, and trust me, those old Hi Watt amps have to be very, very loud to sound like that. In the 80's Lee Jackson and Jose' and a couple other dudes were adding an extra 12ax7 to the front end of the pre amp, to get Marshall's over the top with out killing the front row. Enter the birth of "HIGH GAIN AMPLIFIER". Kind of like saying "Kleenex" or "Pipe Wrench".

thanks Fish. The only thing I didn't understand was that people always say DR has too much gain but to me it never gives me enough sustain when playing legato praises compared to my mark IV.
 
Also... just to get nit-picky and clarify some terms:

The proper definition of sustain indicates that the amplitude of a note after its initial attack phase does not change. Guitars, pianos, violins, basically every single physical acoustic instrument in existence has NO SUSTAIN whatsoever. Instruments with sustain are things like electronic organs which can digitally control the amplitude and maintain it at an exact number (or volume) for an indefinite time. Electric guitars are a bit different because you can introduce a feedback loop with your amp which can, in effect, mimic infinite sustain. But unplugged and acoustic guitars, or electric guitars which cannot achieve a feedback loop (due to not enough volume or gain) DO NOT HAVE SUSTAIN.

What they have is decay, which is the time it takes for the note to die, measured from the peak of the attack, to the death of the note. The reason it's called decay.. well... that should be obvious. The volume fades out, the note decays.

To better understand these terms, read up on volume envelopes. Back in the day, synthesizers used a device called an ADSR (Attack-Delay-Sustain-Release), which is now-a-days called an envelope generator, to create different tones, sounds and effects. Basically, you fed in a sound, and the synth would overlay a new volume envelope over the sound to convey a totally different sound.

Attack is the time it takes for the note to go from silence to peak amplitude after the note is struck. For guitars, this is the time when you pick it when all sorts of high-frequencies and transient frequencies are present. This is the shortest phase of the envelope.

After that is sustain, if the instrument HAS any. Guitars, pianos, acoustic guitars, etc, have no sustain, so immediately after the attack peak comes the decay phase, which is the time from the attack peak until the death of the note.

The release phase applies to most instruments as well. It is the time it takes the note to die off if the instrument has a "note release" mechanism. On pianos, when you release a key, the dampeners fall back onto the strings, and thus they are dampened. Obviously, this does not happen instantly. There is a small period of perhaps 200-400ms where the dampeners quickly silence the note. This is the release period. On a guitar, it would be much shorter. It is the time from when you lift your finger off a fret and a note ceases to exist.

Anyway, hope it helps!
 

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