I'd like to use my mark lll effects loop and my Studio 22 effects loop at the same time. How is this achieved? A/B/Y box ? JHS switchback? Will it still be stereo with the connection or just looped in mono? Thanks for any info.
using effects loop in stereo?
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To start, you will need an isolated A/B/Y box for the front end of each amp. I use the Mesa Switch track so I can select either amp or both. Helps to eliminate the ground loop effect or noise issues. Also allows for phasing of the two amps. If you do not mind running both amps all the time, the alternative is a signal splitter than has one circuit transformer isolated like the Lehel P-Split III. Since that is not buffered, you may get a slight tone variation on the isolated circuit.
As for the FX loop of each amp, and a stereo effect pedal you can use it with both amps.
Example is the Strymon BigSky which has left and right channels. Boss DD-200 is another example. I actually use both. Try to keep the FX circuits separate, one amp stays left and the other amp stays on the right channel. They will share a common ground as it would be the chassis ground. It should not have a ground loop issue like the front end of the amp. I have mixed and match different or same amps using stereo effects. Note: if the effect unit is mono to stereo output, that will not work with two amps and is better used with a stereo power amp ordeal. If you accidentally mix the left and right circuits you will end up slaving into each amp from the other. I have done that by mistake without any issue or have tried it on purpose.
The only time things do not work out as intended is when one amp has a stronger send level than the other. MWDR and Roadster, it works but the MWDR seems to have a higher signal strength in the FX loop than the Roadster. Also tried same with the JP2C and MWDR.
I run stereo setups all the time. I mostly keep the two amps the same as I have two RA100s, Badlanders, and Triple Crowns. It depends on the effect unit. some will not share content between channels and some will. Strymon BigSky will transfer the wet signal to the right side if only using the amp on the left circuit (selected by the ABY switcher). I will hear the reflections in the other amp but not the dry signal. Same with the Boss DD-200. However, the Strymon Timeline does not transfer any wet signal to the other channel. There may be a means to get that effect with some hidden features or internal switch or jumper.
In the image below shows a simple stereo connection. The Boss DD-200 was where the two sends from each amp came in. The left and right channels (A/B) from the boss outputs went to the left/right channel of the BigSky. The left/right outputs of the BigSky then went to the inputs A/B of the Boss EQ-200 and then to the return of each amp. The Mesa Switch Track was used only to prevent the ground loop noise on the inputs of each amp in use. Driven by a single cable to the guitar. In this example, I was using two RA100s. I have done the same thing with the JP2C + Badlander, or other amps in combination to include JP2C + TC100, TC100+TC50. JP2C+MWDR, etc.
It is not difficult to achieve it. However, if you do not have an ABY switch with isolated outputs or signal splitter with at least one isolated output it may be difficult to get to that stage of sound quality. I am actually looking to get another Mesa Switch track so I can run a quad of amps. Bummer that would also need to add more FX pedals to the setup. I already do not have enough room to start with after adding a third amp in the mix. Not blending the stereo FX with the center channel though. That orange box just behind the row of FX pedals closer to the amp on the right is a Lehel P-split III I am using to isolate the center amp (RA100). The direct out from that drives the Mesa Switch track for the two BADs running in stereo.
As for the FX loop of each amp, and a stereo effect pedal you can use it with both amps.
Example is the Strymon BigSky which has left and right channels. Boss DD-200 is another example. I actually use both. Try to keep the FX circuits separate, one amp stays left and the other amp stays on the right channel. They will share a common ground as it would be the chassis ground. It should not have a ground loop issue like the front end of the amp. I have mixed and match different or same amps using stereo effects. Note: if the effect unit is mono to stereo output, that will not work with two amps and is better used with a stereo power amp ordeal. If you accidentally mix the left and right circuits you will end up slaving into each amp from the other. I have done that by mistake without any issue or have tried it on purpose.
The only time things do not work out as intended is when one amp has a stronger send level than the other. MWDR and Roadster, it works but the MWDR seems to have a higher signal strength in the FX loop than the Roadster. Also tried same with the JP2C and MWDR.
I run stereo setups all the time. I mostly keep the two amps the same as I have two RA100s, Badlanders, and Triple Crowns. It depends on the effect unit. some will not share content between channels and some will. Strymon BigSky will transfer the wet signal to the right side if only using the amp on the left circuit (selected by the ABY switcher). I will hear the reflections in the other amp but not the dry signal. Same with the Boss DD-200. However, the Strymon Timeline does not transfer any wet signal to the other channel. There may be a means to get that effect with some hidden features or internal switch or jumper.
In the image below shows a simple stereo connection. The Boss DD-200 was where the two sends from each amp came in. The left and right channels (A/B) from the boss outputs went to the left/right channel of the BigSky. The left/right outputs of the BigSky then went to the inputs A/B of the Boss EQ-200 and then to the return of each amp. The Mesa Switch Track was used only to prevent the ground loop noise on the inputs of each amp in use. Driven by a single cable to the guitar. In this example, I was using two RA100s. I have done the same thing with the JP2C + Badlander, or other amps in combination to include JP2C + TC100, TC100+TC50. JP2C+MWDR, etc.
It is not difficult to achieve it. However, if you do not have an ABY switch with isolated outputs or signal splitter with at least one isolated output it may be difficult to get to that stage of sound quality. I am actually looking to get another Mesa Switch track so I can run a quad of amps. Bummer that would also need to add more FX pedals to the setup. I already do not have enough room to start with after adding a third amp in the mix. Not blending the stereo FX with the center channel though. That orange box just behind the row of FX pedals closer to the amp on the right is a Lehel P-split III I am using to isolate the center amp (RA100). The direct out from that drives the Mesa Switch track for the two BADs running in stereo.
Welcome to the forum.
bandit summed it up well.
Dom
bandit summed it up well.
Dom
Scriptyon
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Hi, why do you need the RA100? You can also use the poweramps of the mesas, right? And then you send the signal to the speaker/s.
And one quick question, if you use just one cab, will it still be stereo?
All wrong. All you need is dual in/out with one button routing switch. you set fx always on for both amps, and this one switch will either route each amp through effects, or bypass the fx and simply return the send to return. The switch needs dual fx loops, one for each amp.
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On
Some of your pedals are stereo. The easiest way to do what you want is to just use the pedals outputs.
One speaker is mono no matter what you put into it. Two independent speakers in one cab may be run stereo. Stereo is best with one or more speakers each side.
Some of your pedals are stereo. The easiest way to do what you want is to just use the pedals outputs.
electric mayhem
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Shawnohio answered it and to add:
when you combine signals (a no-no) any 180 degree out of phase frequencies will cancel giving you dead spots. I imagine 2 in phase signals would give a volume swell.
when you combine signals (a no-no) any 180 degree out of phase frequencies will cancel giving you dead spots. I imagine 2 in phase signals would give a volume swell.
Scriptyon
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Thanks, so could you name one example of that dual in/out one button routing switch?
The easiest way to run in stereo is with two identical amp and speaker combinations.
Guitar—>AMP #1 INPUT—>FX Send—>Stereo pedal (mono input). From there you would send one of the stereo outputs back to the FX Return of Amp #1, and the other stereo output to the FX Return of Amp #2.
A ground loop hum could develop (I’ve never had that issue). Also when using different amps you run the risk of being out of phase with the other amp. This can be corrected with an ABY box with isolated outputs and phase adjustment on one of the outputs, but only really needed if there are the problems I mentioned.
I’ve been running Stereo for a few years now and never had those issues with using identical amps, your mileage may vary
.
I have to remember to grab a couple of pics of my current stereo rig at the next rehearsal.
Maybe I’ll do a ‘Rig Rundown’ video LOL.
Dom
[edit] Turns out I do have pictures from when I had the rig at home:
https://boogieforum.com/threads/stereo-tc-100-rig.87239/
Guitar—>AMP #1 INPUT—>FX Send—>Stereo pedal (mono input). From there you would send one of the stereo outputs back to the FX Return of Amp #1, and the other stereo output to the FX Return of Amp #2.
A ground loop hum could develop (I’ve never had that issue). Also when using different amps you run the risk of being out of phase with the other amp. This can be corrected with an ABY box with isolated outputs and phase adjustment on one of the outputs, but only really needed if there are the problems I mentioned.
I’ve been running Stereo for a few years now and never had those issues with using identical amps, your mileage may vary
. I have to remember to grab a couple of pics of my current stereo rig at the next rehearsal.
Maybe I’ll do a ‘Rig Rundown’ video LOL.
Dom
[edit] Turns out I do have pictures from when I had the rig at home:
https://boogieforum.com/threads/stereo-tc-100-rig.87239/
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Carl Martin Route Box | Reverb
Okay, so it is two buttons, but they are easily close enough to hit together. Or make a simple overlay that will activate both together. you have to set the switches on/off properly before you'll get the action you want.
You run YOUR amp 1 FX send into the INPUT. you run bypass or FX return Y jacked to YOUR amp 1 FX return. You run YOUR amp 2 FX send to the OUTPUT. you run bypass or FX return Y jacked to YOUR amp 2 FX return. This works because a signal can run in either direction. I accept my Nobel prize. It's one of those, easy once explained to me things. like E=MC2. You may have to mod any filters if a problem. You may also get a little noise from the loops. You could build your own, here are plans that you could see the loop shunt to ground part of building your own... Brilliant! Effects Loop Switch Boxes | General Guitar Gadgets
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Scriptyon
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Thanks for everything!
Scriptyon
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Thanks for the info!The easiest way to run in stereo is with two identical amp and speaker combinations.
Guitar—>AMP #1 INPUT—>FX Send—>Stereo pedal (mono input). From there you would send one of the stereo outputs back to the FX Return of Amp #1, and the other stereo output to the FX Return of Amp #2.
A ground loop hum could develop (I’ve never had that issue). Also when using different amps you run the risk of being out of phase with the other amp. This can be corrected with an ABY box with isolated outputs and phase adjustment on one of the outputs, but only really needed if there are the problems I mentioned.
I’ve been running Stereo for a few years now and never had those issues with using identical amps, your mileage may vary
I have to remember to grab a couple of pics of my current stereo rig at the next rehearsal.
Maybe I’ll do a ‘Rig Rundown’ video LOL.
Dom
[edit] Turns out I do have pictures from when I had the rig at home:
https://boogieforum.com/threads/stereo-tc-100-rig.87239/
The best thing to do is wire one yourself. This switch is used for "true bypass" on fx pedals, they also use it in the ProCo Rat (at least they used to) Carling DPDT Push-Button Switch Its a DPDT or Double Pole, Double Throw switch. You can wire it with two independent inputs, and route each to two independent outputs. So amp 1 FX Send and amp 2 FX Send are routed in, and the path is to either go back "untreated" into the respective amps FX loop returns, or through a cable to the pedals... The last loop pedal output for each side is Y jacked with the (no pedal for that side) output back into the respective amp's FX loop return. So now you can control the route to either loop pedals or just a "jumper" between your FX send and FX return. But note, it may not be "silent", and there may be some residual pedal path noise (probably low level) even when not routing through pedals. The whole thing should cost around $60-70 including the enclosure, jacks, and switch.
Another important consideration is that the path through your FX loop is "treated" in most Mesas, meaning it's going to run through a circuit and some tubes. I've "jumped" my FX loop with just a cable to hear what it would sound like with no pedals, and I did not like the sound. It may just be adjusting things, or getting used to it for it to sound "better". Some people like the sound of it and always jump their FX loop so their signal goes through it, even with no pedals. But that's something you'll have to test as well.
There are a couple of other ways what you want to do can be done, including modding your amps' circuits or taking them to a tech. It's budget driven. I'd experiment and make the box myself if I wanted to do it. I've also seen some cheap aluminum switch boxes you could stick together for $20/each and hit both buttons with one foot, or choose left or right. If it were me, I would want independent and dual, because I often use the right channel with no mods.
To keep it simple and avoid all the downsides, may I humbly suggest you do what I do, which is run my gain pedals first, then I use a NUX ModCore Deluxe stereo pedal to split the signal (which it does well, even when off). I run the right out into my mod and delay, into the left amp. I run the left out into my right amp straight from that point. The only reason i invert left and right is it sounds better with my particular amps. Bottom line is you mono gain, split, mods and delay go into front of left, dry from that point into right. It sounds wide and fantastic. There is a subtle natural delay with two amps anyway, due to different circuits, yeah I use two different amps, not identical ones. it rips this way for me, no issues. You'd have to playing a large venue for this not to work, in which case you're better off running your split stuff through the board to FOH and letting your soundman handle some of the chores.
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Some amps have a reverb switch which controls the FX loop too, and if you had two identical amps, you could probably rewire the footswitch jack for those amps to accomplish what you want as well. But you'd probably have to get two of those amps, vs. sub $100... lol It's your world!
The RA100 is a dry signal of sorts.
I am more of a hobbyist of sorts. I do play in a band, more of a jam thing than any professional performance but when I am with the group, I am the drummer. I have played guitar unfaithfully for the past 43 years (give or take a year). Drums and bass for far less time. Started in the past 8 years.
My rig is simple. I run all of the amps in the setup. The single guitar cable connects to a Lehel P-Split III which is nothing more than a transformer based signal splitter. Direct in and direct out will run to the RA100 input. The isolated output will feed into a Mesa Switch Track that is an AB/Y buffered and isolated A, B, A+B or mute. I don't really need to use the Lehel P-Split III as I can use the tuner out from the Mesa Switch Track. I have done that before but had a noise issue. I have also made use of 2 Lehel P-Splits to branch the two outputs of the Mesa switch track into a total of 4 amps. For a trial experiment only. You are then stuck with two amps per channel on at all times. The Mesa Switch Track is the essential part of pairing up two tube amps as the outputs are completely isolated from the input circuit. The buffering takes care of the signal loss due to the isolation transformers. No DC coupling will occur between the two amps which prevents unwanted noise, ground loop issues and such. As for the FX loops on each amp, they generally are not prone to ground loop issues but it can happen.
The BigSky reverb is a stereo in/stereo out type of effect. I used it in a Hall effect of sorts that has some delay and other slight flavors of things to make two amps sound like a huge rig. Not exactly like a guitar doubler effect that uses short delays and slight phase variations based on a tape or drum delay machine. Each effect channel in the BigSky marked as left and right are used with each amp in the stereo setup. As long as both amps are active, I will get the effect from both amps even when set to A or B on the Mesa switch track as it will provide reflection copies on each channel of the active signal path. I do use a stereo delay as well, may as well call it a parallel effect as it has a left and right channel. However, there are some that to not reflect signal between both channels and some that do. Meaning if the signal strength on one channel is high and the other is low, you only get the dry and delay on the stronger channel. That tends to go away if both amps are pushing the FX signal when the Mesa Switch track is set to A+B. I would say it is a parallel method for stereo since the FX loops are making use of a stereo effect that shares content from left to right without coupling the two loops together. A parallel mono mode would be if there are separate effects on each loop. This would be more of a tandem method. That is probably what my setup is.
Traditional method is done with a mono to stereo effect. One signal is returned to the FX loop of the sending unit and the other output is sent to a return of another amp. This will bypass the preamp of the other channel. One could also use a signal splitter and route it back to the original amp return and send the split signal to a mono to stereo effect to feed a stereo power amp. There are so many ways to do this. I am doing it the easy way with just two amps. (making use of the preamp and power amp of each).
RA in the mix is running its own FX loop of sorts fully independent of the Badlanders.
Badlander clean and crush will be in phase with the RA clean and Hi gain. Badlander crunch will be in phase with the RA lo gain. I could use a TC100 or TC50 to do the same thing. Switching channels is a difficult task as I do not have any midi control units that can do that on the fly for me. Since I barely change channels it is no big deal. More of a set and forget and make use of the guitar volume if I want to clean things up.
I did have a MWDR in the center. What was nice was the mute feature. However, keeping the phase in check with the MWDR and Badlanders meant that I could not switch channels with the 2 Bads and maintain phase. You generally do not get dead spots as the amps will not completely cancel out each other when using separate cabinets. I have also use the OS Recto 412 in a stereo mode and never got any complete cancellation. When the amps are in phase it will be louder, if out of phase, it sounds more like two guitar pickups giving you that quack sound (referencing a Stratocaster).
Just a two amp method of different types will create a unique sound when they are both active. Running more than two amps does add some complexity and may give you more than you expect or kill the stereo effect as it may depend on which is more dominant. I found the MWDR as the center channel did take away more than what I wanted if it was too loud. Once I got to that happy median place and put the two bads into mute, the MWDR was barely contributing. The RA method or even the JP2C in the center point acted more like a boost enhancing the two outer amps.
Just to make things more complex and probably over the top is the quad setup. I will need another Mesa Switch Track to make it work. Probably another Strymon BigSky too. Again, the two Badlanders run the outer space. On the inside we have a JP2C on the right and a missing amp on the left center. I am expecting delivery of the Mark VII very soon.
In this set up, one Mesa Switch Track will connect to the two amps on the left, the other Mesa Switch Track will connect to the two amps on the right. One BigSKy to service the FX loops of the outer two amps, the other Bigsky to service the FX loops of the inner pair. I also have a Srymon Deco which can do the double tracker thing. mono to stereo output. This will allow me to have more effects commonly used on the front end of the signal chain, then split it with the double track effect to feed into each Mess Switch Track. This will then provide a combination of left (A, B, A+B, Mute) and right (A, B, A+B, Mute). That should provide enough flexibility. For the time being, I will have to make due with splitters if I want the full rig going at once after I get the VII. Or just stick with two amps at a time and not use the other two. The suspense is killing me. Not sure what to expect yet.
The speakers at each end of the setup are from the bass amp. I need to move them back to their original position as that shook the shelves and cabinets in the kitchen to the point everything was moving around, few things dropped to the floor. It was like having a poltergeist. That was the experience of the last jam session I had with some friends a few days ago. I usually play drums for that. However, when I am on guitar, it is the full rig (minus the missing amp).
If you look at the floor in front of the amps, the two effects next to the JP2C footswitch are in the JP loop. The stuff to the left is what is used in the stereo rig. I can switch the Bads to clean or crush as those channels will be in phase with the JP2C. Since the JP lacks a mute, I can set the clean channel to do nothing or one of the lead channels dialed out completely. Bads have not mute either but the Mesa Switch Track has that built in. The end result of the three is just out of this world. I would say it is like a Coliseum IIC+ model (Simul-Class +100 power). The Bads are the EL34 part and the JP2C is the 6L6 Class A/B part. Ok, it is simulated Simul-Class that goes above and beyond a single amp.
Scriptyon
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MIDI control will require a controller, and MIDI capable devices. If your amp is not MIDI capable you will need a MIDI switcher to interface with the amp. RJM Music and Voodoo Lab are two common brands.
There are many ways to apply MIDI, it really depends on what you want to do.
If you want to control your MKIII & Studio 22 you will need some kind of MIDI switcher to interface with the amp. If your effects are not MIDI capable you will need a MIDI controlled loop box to switch them in and out of the signal path
I use Voodoo Labs gear, I find it very road-worthy and easy to use once setup. I also put a link to my rig setup in a previous post in this thread.
https://voodoolab.com/product-category/switching/
I have a Ground Control Pro as my controller, a GCX for my non-MIDI pedals, and before I had the TC-100, a Control Switcher for my non MIDI capable amp. Using all one brand is usually the easiest setup to get all devices working, but if you have some basic knowledge of how MIDI actually works you can mix and match, you just need to make sure all the MIDI devices are compatible You will also need to make sure you do not have multiple devices that use the same MIDI commands on the same MIDI channel or your rig will be chaotic.
You should educate yourself a bit on how MIDI works before you dive-in. Also, once you have a plan of what you want to do you should map it out before you start to build.
Here is a good read on using MIDI in a guitar rig:
https://guitar.com/guides/essential-guide/guitarist-guide-to-midi/
It may look a bit complicated at first, but once you understand the basics and apply it in a simple scenario you will realize just how easy and convenient MIDI control can be.
Hope this helps,
Dom
There are many ways to apply MIDI, it really depends on what you want to do.
If you want to control your MKIII & Studio 22 you will need some kind of MIDI switcher to interface with the amp. If your effects are not MIDI capable you will need a MIDI controlled loop box to switch them in and out of the signal path
I use Voodoo Labs gear, I find it very road-worthy and easy to use once setup. I also put a link to my rig setup in a previous post in this thread.
https://voodoolab.com/product-category/switching/
I have a Ground Control Pro as my controller, a GCX for my non-MIDI pedals, and before I had the TC-100, a Control Switcher for my non MIDI capable amp. Using all one brand is usually the easiest setup to get all devices working, but if you have some basic knowledge of how MIDI actually works you can mix and match, you just need to make sure all the MIDI devices are compatible You will also need to make sure you do not have multiple devices that use the same MIDI commands on the same MIDI channel or your rig will be chaotic.
You should educate yourself a bit on how MIDI works before you dive-in. Also, once you have a plan of what you want to do you should map it out before you start to build.
Here is a good read on using MIDI in a guitar rig:
https://guitar.com/guides/essential-guide/guitarist-guide-to-midi/
It may look a bit complicated at first, but once you understand the basics and apply it in a simple scenario you will realize just how easy and convenient MIDI control can be.
Hope this helps,
Dom
