Super clean cleans

[echoes420]

Ok, so here is the deal...

I just recently took my first jump into the world of Mesa... by buying a 2 channel Dual Rectifier from the local Craig's List. (serial #R-015441) I am absolutely in love with the sound of the distortion, but the cleans just aren't bright enough for my liking... and I tried every possible combination of eq'ing and switches and buttons on the back.

My question here is... what is the Mesa clean channel supposed to sound like?

I know I thought I should be able to coax a nice Tim Mahoney(311) clean tone out of it, considering he used these things for years, but that I cannot.

Could the tubes just be old or could the type and brand of tubes be my culprit? It has Mesa EL-34s in the power section and an all Groove Tube preamp section. I am also pushing a Fender Metalhead cabinet, which has 4 100-watt celestions in it and runs at 4 ohms... but is a very solid cab. I know everything has an effect on tone, I am just curious as to how much my clean tone would improve with different tubes and/or a new cab.

Also a second quick question... what Mesa footswitch is the best match for a 2 channel Rec?

 

[MusicManJP6]

Hey man, welcome to the forums and congrats on the new amp! The Rectos are not known for their clean channel to be honest. I hate to be the one to tell you this! You'll most likely have to crank the presence, treble, and mids a good amount to get the brightness you want. OR, you can set the mode to crunch and keep the gain way down and crank the master to brighten it up. I'm a 311 fan too, but can't imagine his clean tones coming from a DR!

Mesa's footswitch should be best for your amp (of course). Check their site and you should be able to order the factory one new (pretty costly!) or check the classifieds here or check ebay for a used one and save yourself some cash.

 

[mwalluk]

Oddly and ironically enough, try using some pedals to make a clean tone. A touch of verb/chorus/flange/tremelo/etc and an EQ pedal can brighten it up. Also congrats on the amp, I just picked up my first Mesa as well last night. It's a Dual Rectifier Trem-O-Verb.

 

[mwalluk]

You also may want to try using an open back 212 cab instead of the 412. the 412s are great for overdriven/distortion tones, but an open back are the best for cleans.

 

[MusicManJP6]

You also may want to try using an open back 212 cab instead of the 412. the 412s are great for overdriven/distortion tones, but an open back are the best for cleans.

Didn't think of this! Def worth a try...

 

[Old BF Shred]

You say it has Mesa el34's in it? That amp may sound brighter with 6L6's....that's the "standard" tube for that amp. Also if the '34's are Mesa str447's, they are not the best el34. The str 450's are supposed to be much better, although, granted, I have not used them....yet. I do know the 447's are indeed the worst sounding el34 I've tried in my Ace.
My point is you may have some room for improvement, if you plan on running el34 in this amp.

But you may need to try 6L6's to see if that's the tone you seek.
Just a suggestion, as I have found output tubes seem to make a big difference in most amps.

There are guys here who have more experience with the Rectos and hopefully they'll pipe in with more info for you.

Good luck!

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

You say it has Mesa el34's in it? That amp may sound brighter with 6L6's....that's the "standard" tube for that amp. Also if the '34's are Mesa str447's, they are not the best el34. The str 450's are supposed to be much better, although, granted, I have not used them....yet. I do know the 447's are indeed the worst sounding el34 I've tried in my Ace.
My point is you may have some room for improvement, if you plan on running el34 in this amp.

But you may need to try 6L6's to see if that's the tone you seek.
Just a suggestion, as I have found output tubes seem to make a big difference in most amps.

There are guys here who have more experience with the Rectos and hopefully they'll pipe in with more info for you.

Good luck!

EL34s have always sounded brighter to me than 6L6s, including those in Rectos... :shock:

To the thread starter, I say run the crunch mode and back off on your guitar volume, and see how it goes...

 

[mwalluk]

Try checking out avatarspeakers.com they make really good cabs with great speakers for cheap. I forgot what speakers are you using again? Some need to be cranked before a good tone can be heard. Like the other poster said, try tube swapping. JJs are great tubes. The guiatr and pickups you are using could also be affecting the tonal quality. The wood and electronics play a factor. I can get a good clean tone, but it still has room for improvements since I'm using EMGs.

 

[echoes420]

Thank you all for the quick advice.

The cab idea would probably be ideal in a recording situation, but I am using this as a live rig and need the 4x12 for the distortion. I have however not ruled out buying two Mesa 2x12's(mainly because it is so loud through the 4x12, even at low volumes)

As for the 6L6's... I am certainly going to do that very soon, just to see the difference in sound... but should I also get a different brand of tubes for the preamp section? I see a lot of people on here recommending all brands except for Groove Tubes. How much difference would a different brand like say EH or even Mesa make in the overall tone?

 

[mwalluk]

Stay away from Eh, stick with JJs or Tungsol

Truthfully, you don't need a 412 to gig, I've gigged with a 1x12 and a 2x12 respectivey. That suffices enough. Couple reasons, you're able to crank your amp up louder since you have less speakers thus you have the ability of reaching that sweet spot sooner. Also, for large crowds you should mic your cab, that way the music is more line level and balanced coming through the PA. The only way you would need a 412 is if your playing stadium shows.

 

[Silverwulf]

Truthfully, you don't need a 412 to gig, I've gigged with a 1x12 and a 2x12 respectivey. That suffices enough. Couple reasons, you're able to crank your amp up louder since you have less speakers thus you have the ability of reaching that sweet spot sooner. Also, for large crowds you should mic your cab, that way the music is more line level and balanced coming through the PA. The only way you would need a 412 is if your playing stadium shows.

Well, I both agree and disagree with this. While I don't think it's absolutely necessary to have a 4X12, I couldn't imagine gigging without one. I couldn't imagine cranking my Triple through a 1X12 and trying to get the sound I usually have. It's just not going to happen. Some venues we play - where we are mic'd - have such horrible stage mixes half the time that my 4X12 blasting behind me is the only way I hear myself with horrible stage monitoring and a 10k watt PA blasting. I just prefer the 4X12 on all fronts, whether it's a large stage or small bar. Whether or not I need it is subject to debate, but it's certainly my preference.

For the clean sounds, I do tend to crank my Treble and Presence. Also, try cloning Modern Red to Vintage and see if that helps you.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Stay away from Eh, stick with JJs or Tungsol

Truthfully, you don't need a 412 to gig, I've gigged with a 1x12 and a 2x12 respectivey. That suffices enough. Couple reasons, you're able to crank your amp up louder since you have less speakers thus you have the ability of reaching that sweet spot sooner. Also, for large crowds you should mic your cab, that way the music is more line level and balanced coming through the PA. The only way you would need a 412 is if your playing stadium shows.

Ugh, them JJ preamps were horrible in the Mesa I tested out... :?

 

[Anonymous]

First off, your clean channel doesn't have to sound awful; I've gotten passable cleans out of my TR 2 channel. There are two ways I've found to get pretty decent cleans. One is to crank the presence knob (which actually is a treble roll-off and when dimed, doesn't have an effect on the signal), put the presence up pretty high, turn the mids down some for a Fender chime, and leave the bass around noon. Then, keep the gain low and the volume high.

The other way I've found is, as someone suggested, clone the vintage channel to be like the red. Use similar EQ settings, and that'll be about as good as it can with your current setup.

Now, one thing I would recommend for substantially better cleans is to get 6L6s. They're much better for cleans, and I prefer them for distorted tones in Rectifiers as well.

As for cabinets, if you want to get the best tone possible out of your Recto, I would recommend sticking with a 4x12. It's overkill for a lot of gigs, but there's no way to get a big sound with a small cabinet. You said you were looking into the Fender Metalhead cab, and I actually think you should reconsider. If you want the quintessential Recto tone, you have to get a Recto 4x12. I started off with a Basson cabinet, and was unhappy with my tone for a year! The second I plugged into a Recto cab, all my tone troubles were behind me. Now, if the Recto cab is out of the question, I would really recommend you stick with something that has V30s. The reason they're great with a Recto is because they don't push bass frequencies out the way higher powered speakers will.

With speakers, you always want a certain amount of speaker breakup, and the V30s work exceptionally well because where higher powered speakers will continue to push out ridiculous amounts of bass, the V30s will strike a great balance and compliment your Recto nicely.

Hope that helps!

 

[echoes420]

First off, your clean channel doesn't have to sound awful; I've gotten passable cleans out of my TR 2 channel. There are two ways I've found to get pretty decent cleans. One is to crank the presence knob (which actually is a treble roll-off and when dimed, doesn't have an effect on the signal), put the presence up pretty high, turn the mids down some for a Fender chime, and leave the bass around noon. Then, keep the gain low and the volume high.

The other way I've found is, as someone suggested, clone the vintage channel to be like the red. Use similar EQ settings, and that'll be about as good as it can with your current setup.

Now, one thing I would recommend for substantially better cleans is to get 6L6s. They're much better for cleans, and I prefer them for distorted tones in Rectifiers as well.

As for cabinets, if you want to get the best tone possible out of your Recto, I would recommend sticking with a 4x12. It's overkill for a lot of gigs, but there's no way to get a big sound with a small cabinet. You said you were looking into the Fender Metalhead cab, and I actually think you should reconsider. If you want the quintessential Recto tone, you have to get a Recto 4x12. I started off with a Basson cabinet, and was unhappy with my tone for a year! The second I plugged into a Recto cab, all my tone troubles were behind me. Now, if the Recto cab is out of the question, I would really recommend you stick with something that has V30s. The reason they're great with a Recto is because they don't push bass frequencies out the way higher powered speakers will.

With speakers, you always want a certain amount of speaker breakup, and the V30s work exceptionally well because where higher powered speakers will continue to push out ridiculous amounts of bass, the V30s will strike a great balance and compliment your Recto nicely.

Hope that helps!

That does help... but that is approximately where I am running the eq and the channel is cloned like you say. I guess I have achieved its greatest clean tone possible with the current tube and cab setup. It is clean... just not as clean as I have become used to with the in your face brightness of my solid state Metalhead. I have a whole 6L6 tube kit on the way from a place called Eurotubes. Even ordered new rectifier tubes.

Though, the only reason I am using the Metalhead cab is the fact that they are there at the rehearsal spot. They are all I have right now... but I guess I am in the market for a Mesa cab now. I have always liked matching components, pretty much everywhere in life.(All of my car audio is Kenwood...speakers, deck, amp, etc.) I figure when they are testing things, they are probably using what they have there, which is likely the matching component.

What would be the difference between a full on 4x12 as opposed to buying 2 separate Mesa closed back 2x12s? If I was to buy the 4x12, it would be the straight one anyway, as I don't like those 2 top speakers of the slant cab assaulting my ears.

 

[stephen sawall]

The reason to use one cab over a other is a matter of tone and taste.
I have done gigs with a 1x8 in speaker. It was miked and sounded fine.
At this time I prefer 10x12's.

 

[Anonymous]

What would be the difference between a full on 4x12 as opposed to buying 2 separate Mesa closed back 2x12s? If I was to buy the 4x12, it would be the straight one anyway, as I don't like those 2 top speakers of the slant cab assaulting my ears.

The biggest difference will be in tone. The 4x12 Recto cab has a very deep sound to it that really works well the way a 2x12 doesn't.

Now, that is not to say there aren't advantages to 2x12s. First off, they're easier to transport and more portable. Second, and this is what I would definitely consider, is that the 2x12s will be tighter and more articulate since they are moving around less air.

Which is better? It will be up to you. Weigh in on what's important, but I can say that there is no match for the tone of a 4x12 Recto cab, which is precisely why I own one and not 2 2x12s.

At this time I prefer 10x12's.

Is this a typo or do you really use 10 12" speakers?!

 

[stephen sawall]

2(4x12)&1(2x12) ~ celestion 2x 85,2x H30,2x greenbacks,4x V30. Wired to a 4 ohm load.

 

[Anonymous]

2(4x12)&1(2x12) ~ celestion 2x 85,2x H30,2x greenbacks,4x V30. Wired to a 4 ohm load.

Nice! I'll bet that sounds incredible!!

 

[stephen sawall]

It is a very full sound. I like a lot of lows this is the only way I get what I want. A lot of people think it is for volume. That is not it at all. It is all about tone. I have 15 or so 12's and 18 x10's.

 

[Gtr_Pkr]

Stay away from Eh, stick with JJs or Tungsol

Truthfully, you don't need a 412 to gig, I've gigged with a 1x12 and a 2x12 respectivey. That suffices enough. Couple reasons, you're able to crank your amp up louder since you have less speakers thus you have the ability of reaching that sweet spot sooner. Also, for large crowds you should mic your cab, that way the music is more line level and balanced coming through the PA. The only way you would need a 412 is if your playing stadium shows.

In my TR I have Gold Pin EH 12AX7's. They have been pretty reliable and they have an awesome sound. I've got those tubes in my Marshall Major as well. My opinion is that they are great tubes.

While the TR cleans are not Fender, why would they be, I can get a decent twang out of it with single coils. My solution to the clean problem is to pair my TR with my 4x10 Bassman clone. Great setup.