rectifier - diode or tube?

[oyster]

Someone earlier said that mathematically there is virtually no difference between the two alternatives. The curiosity was that the single rectifier uses a diode while the triple and dual rectifiers use tubes for this purpose. :?:

What does a rectifier do exactly (convert AC to DC??) and what difference does it make whether this function is done by a tube or the other alternative (silicon diode?)? :?:

Does it actually make any verifiable difference to the sound of the amp in the end and is this difference actually something you can measure or hear, or is it just something people to brag about ("it has a tube rectifier, nothing but the best for me")? I'm not looking for unreliable opinions but rather, verifiable fact. :?:

Thanks

 

[RR]

The curiosity was that the single rectifier uses a diode while the triple and dual rectifiers use tubes for this purpose. :?:

The Triple, Dual as well as other M/B that has the label "dual rectifier" which includes Trem-o-Verb, Maverick ... has a switch that you can select either diode or tube rectifier.

What does a rectifier do exactly (convert AC to DC??) and what difference does it make whether this function is done by a tube or the other alternative (silicon diode?)? :?:

Rectifier supplies voltage to the power stage tubes (EL34s, 6L6s, EL84s etc ...)

Does it actually make any verifiable difference to the sound of the amp in the end and is this difference actually something you can measure or hear, or is it just something people to brag about ("it has a tube rectifier, nothing but the best for me")? I'm not looking for unreliable opinions but rather, verifiable fact. :?:

This is unreliable opinion, but for me, if I myself is playing the guitar and someone is switching the rectifier selection between diode or tubes, (I'm not sure but you should put the guitar amp on standby first before switching to the rectifier), I can tell the difference.

There's a difference in the attact and feel, and chime.

Now if someones else is playing, I can't truthfully say "you are playing with the tube rectifier, ... that's the diode rectifier."

Hard to explain but I've been playing the guitar for 30+ years and played my share of vintage, boutique amps ... and I'm sure others on this board could tell the difference.

In the late 60s just about all or rather most guitar amp manufactures just about abandoned tube rectifiers in place of solid state. So even some of classic amps such as Twins, Plexi, Super Lead are using solid state rectifiers.

Personally its up to your style to determine what you favor. Heavy Metal would prefer diode since its very aggressive. Some don't even care for tube rectifier. Now alot of tube aficionados would prefer tube rectifiers.

Randall Smith if I'm mistaken had a patent of "dual rectifier" switching between solid state or tubes. I think the patent ran out already so everyone else is doing it.

 

[tele_jas]

I personally like Tube rectification. It feels more reactive to my playing, but like the above post said:

if someones else is playing, I can't truthfully say "you are playing with the tube rectifier, ... that's the diode rectifier."

, I wouldn't either and I may not be able to tell if I accidently have it set on diode instead of tube and someone asks me which mode I'm in. But If I'm doing a side by side comparison, I can tell a difference and I perfer tube.

 

[no soul]

a rectifier is simply a device in the amplifier that converts AC (from your walls outlet) into DC (which is what the amp runs on)

ALL amplifiers have a rectifier of one sort or the other, it just so happens that for almost 40 years most amps have solidstate rectifiers instead of tube.

Replacing tube rectifiers with solidstate rectifiers as an industry standard was actually a very logical thing to IMO. For one, it makes production cheaper, which arguably passes savings onto consumers (arguably).

Also, just like any other case, solidstate rectifiers are much much much more reliable than their tube counterparts.

Within any given design a solidstate recto is going to be louder, clearer, and more focused. So to me, though Ive gotten in many heated debates over this, the difference between a tube recto and solid within the same design (Dual Recto being a great example) is more a difference in dynamics than tone. And by tone I mean the propper definition of tone, as in timbre, where as in common use dynamics would be included in the term.

So what you generaly get with a tube Recto is SAG. The most simple explanation is that when you hit a note, it will swell and seem to get a bit louder and bigger AFTER the attack. This can be used nicely for single note leads and such, but for more precussive rhythmic type playing, it can be kind of annoying.

Are Tube Rectos superior to Solidstate? Not at all, nor is the inverse true.
Its completely up to preference, but most people arent going to have an opinion on the matter since amps with tube rectos these days are pretty rare. However, if anything you will find people with tube rectos converting them to solidstate, not the other way arround.

Interesting thing is, why did Mesa decide to put such a vintage type of technology on a very modernly voiced amp?

 

[tele_jas]

So what you generaly get with a tube Recto is SAG

I think thats what I like, it's almost feels like a compression kicking in and maked my sound more "snappy" on the cleans and works GREAT for country chicken pickin' and popping the strings.

I played an early '70s Fender Deluxe almost exclusively from the age of around 13 until just recently (I'm 33), I think I just got used to the entire tube sound (power, preamp and rectifier). I then tried a solid state amp (several acutally) and I think that may be what I missed the most, that "SAG". That may be why I liked my dual (t-verb) better than my rectoverb. When you explained it that way, the SAG theory, that all makes sence to me.

 

[oyster]

Cool, thanks guys.

I have a single rectifier and really love the tone.

Sounds like maybe the sag / feel could be different with a tube rectifier but the one in the single recto is solid state and there is no option to choose tube instead.

If mesa felt tube rectifier was "better" why wouldn't they have chosen that for the single recto? Simply cost?

As a mod, could the rectifier be changed to tube from solid state?

 

[RR]

If mesa felt tube rectifier was "better" why wouldn't they have chosen that for the single recto? Simply cost?

As a mod, could the rectifier be changed to tube from solid state?

Yes, its more cost effective for MESA to stay with solid state (diode) rectifier on some of their line of amps. Besides even their earliest amps MarkI, MarkII and Mark III were all solid state rectifier.

I think, not sure though, Mark I reissue and Mark IV may have tube rectifier / solid state rectifier switch. Not sure though. I'll have to look that up.

(IMO) tube rectifiers were brought on by the boutique guitar amp manufacturers like Matchless, Victoria, Bruno, etc ... there was demand for 'that' vintage tone. So to leave all stone uncover, these manufactures included tube rectifier. Randall Smith did one better and added both solid state or tube rectifier with a switch selector.

The difference its so subtle not sure if its worth it for you. Now for a discriminating ear, maybe that subtly is worth it. I like tele_jas prefer tube rectifier in most but not in all cases in music style. I'm very diverse in music style so I'm just happy MESA has amps with both tube and solid state rectifier.

I would think its possible to add a switch to choose from tube or solid state rectifier. But then whoever does the work has to do some real serious work on your single rectifier like drilling out a socket for the tube rectifier.

The best thing is try an amp with tube rectifier. You many have to play with it for an hour to notice the difference.

Tube rectifier -vs- solid state rectifier is one of those debates:

"nitrocellulose -vs- polyurathane finish guitars"
"one-piece guitar body -vs- multi-piece guitars"
"bolt-on neck guitars -vs- glued-on neck guitars"
"Fender" -vs- "Gibson"
"Less filling" -vs- "taste great"
"Chevy" -vs- "Ford"
"Harleys -vs- Indians"
"Republicans" -vs- "Democrats"
"Hooters" -vs- "Crazy Horse"

I think you get my drift. No one wins yet everyone argues.

 

[no soul]

If mesa felt tube rectifier was "better" why wouldn't they have chosen that for the single recto? Simply cost?

As a mod, could the rectifier be changed to tube from solid state?

they dont think its better, and as I mentioned already, most people dont think its better.

yeah you could probably convert it, but it would be cheaper just to buy a dual recto.

and yes, the vast majority of Mesa amps are solidstate recto.

 

[no soul]

If mesa felt tube rectifier was "better" why wouldn't they have chosen that for the single recto? Simply cost?

As a mod, could the rectifier be changed to tube from solid state?

Yes, its more cost effective for MESA to stay with solid state (diode) rectifier on some of their line of amps. Besides even their earliest amps MarkI, MarkII and Mark III were all solid state rectifier.

I think, not sure though, Mark I reissue and Mark IV may have tube rectifier / solid state rectifier switch. Not sure though. I'll have to look that up.

(IMO) tube rectifiers were brought on by the boutique guitar amp manufacturers like Matchless, Victoria, Bruno, etc ... there was demand for 'that' vintage tone. So to leave all stone uncover, these manufactures included tube rectifier. Randall Smith did one better and added both solid state or tube rectifier with a switch selector.

The difference its so subtle not sure if its worth it for you. Now for a discriminating ear, maybe that subtly is worth it. I like tele_jas prefer tube rectifier in most but not in all cases in music style. I'm very diverse in music style so I'm just happy MESA has amps with both tube and solid state rectifier.

I would think its possible to add a switch to choose from tube or solid state rectifier. But then whoever does the work has to do some real serious work on your single rectifier like drilling out a socket for the tube rectifier.

The best thing is try an amp with tube rectifier. You many have to play with it for an hour to notice the difference.

Tube rectifier -vs- solid state rectifier is one of those debates:

"nitrocellulose -vs- polyurathane finish guitars"
"one-piece guitar body -vs- multi-piece guitars"
"bolt-on neck guitars -vs- glued-on neck guitars"
"Fender" -vs- "Gibson"
"Less filling" -vs- "taste great"
"Chevy" -vs- "Ford"
"Harleys -vs- Indians"
"Republicans" -vs- "Democrats"
"Hooters" -vs- "Crazy Horse"

I think you get my drift. No one wins yet everyone argues.

+1

 

[Bren10]

Guys, Here's something:
A rectifier tube has a Cathode and an Anode. It is a "Diode" just like the transistor version which is called, in many cases, a "Silicon Diode". It's kind of like a light bulb with a solar panel next to it. That's how it works. AC goes to the cathode... Electrons fly off of it and go to the anode... Those electrons then go to the cathode of your power tupes as DC. Or, at least that's the way I understand it.

Anyway, I have no opinion about tube rectifiers. I don't have a single amp that has one. Also, my dream Mesa/Boogie amp and it's runner up are solid state rectified. So, I don't think I'll be owning a tube rectified amp in the near future. I just thought it seemed like there was some confusion about the term "Diode".

I think, sometimes, amps and guitars are played up by terminology. Like "Class A" for instance. I'm not knocking Class A amps but the Class A sound is pretty specific and only different, not better. I'm trying to prevent the term "Diode" from becoming a bad word in terms of tone.

You should also know that I agree with y'all. I can't tell the difference unless I'm playing.

Cheers!

 

[tele_jas]

After all is said and done, I don' think there is anything wrong with SS rectifiers.... It all boils down to what you like. I'm not knocking SS rectifiers, I just perfer tube . I don't have a bad taste in my mouth about SS rectifiers either, just perfer tube and that may all be a mental thing too..... You know were all guitar players and guitar players are kind of nuts

What other profession (or hobby) goes the total opposite way as technology? I mean, computers are lighter, smaller and faster than ever.... I even have a cell phone that has a faster processor than a computer I had 5 years ago :shock: But all of my amps are using 60+ year old technology and weigh a ton! Face it, we're all nuts!

 

[AMG1]

I would'nt buy an amp based on rectifier type.

The first amp I remember playing with a tube recto was a Heartbreaker. I thought there was a difference in the feel.

To be honest I know I've played others that had a tube recto years ago, like a Deluxe Reverb but I never knew it.

I dont know who did it first in terms of modern amps but when people got wind you could use a tube in the Bassman reissue many got excited. Of course you cant leave out Gerald Weber who wrote many many articles in VG praiseing tube rectifiers.

Bottom line for me is if the amp sounds good it sounds good.

 

[oyster]

Ok there is probably a subtle difference you can hear/feel.

I considered the single, dual and triple rec once I realized this was the tone for me... but I chose the single rec for lower power rating (50W vs. 100W / 150W). I would not conceive of using that much power and I wanted to get power tube clipping over a range of levels at a more reasonable volume level.

So any possible improvement in sound from a tube rec in certain situations, would be outweighed by the improvement in sound (IMHO) to be had by clipping the power tubes...with a 50W amp this can obviously be done at a lower volume level and a wider range of clipping possibilities are more easily available. I realize the relationship between power rating and volume is likely nonlinear but is a reasonable conclusion?

Thanks guys

 

[tele_jas]

On a Dual rectifier, you can pull the inner two or outer two power tubes and one rectifer tube and run the amp at 50wts.... Just be sure to change the speaker over to the next lower ohm plug (Ex: if you're running a speaker/cab rated at 16ohms you will now run it at 8ohms). I spoke to a mesa tech and they said you can safely do this. Then you get the lower wattage (50wts) and rectifier choice. Just some FYI

 

[RR]

Now we're really getting into "Tone Quest".

Yes, you can remove two of the power stage tubes and use one rectifier tube. I tried it, it was fine

BUT the output transformer is still a larger (100watt+) transformer so you don't get that "saturation" like a 50 watt amp. And in amp design, output transformer as well as many other components makes your amp tone.

I tried to be diplomatic about tube rectifier -vs- solid state rectifier. But here's my story about tube rectifier.

All my amps were solid state rectifier exception of my Silverface Princeton. It was Class A, dual 6V6s, 5YA-or something rectifier tube.

Anyway, I wanted to keep up with times (90s) and decided to purchase a shred amp so I bought MESA's Trem-o-Verb. I suppose I could have bought a Dual Rectifier but after reading Guitar Player Magazine's critique on the Trem-o-Verb, I thought for my use, Trem-o-Verb suit me fine.

The red channel, modern gain, diode, bold was what I was looking for, a shredders tone.

So I started exploring the Trem-o-Verb, switch to "Spongy", "tube rectifier" and playing with the Orange Channel "Vintage Gain", or"Red Channel "Blues" mode.

Then I realize this amp could do "rock -n- roll" sixty-ish stuff too. A bit loud but never the less it had this subtliness like older amps I used to play.

I had my friends that visited listen to the difference (between solid state -vs- tube rectifier), claimed there was a subtle difference but it was hard to distinguish. So it really the "ear of the beholder".

For one thing, I don't want to make it a "tube -vs- solid state" debate. I don't like when posters tries to make themselves feel like a "privilege one" boasting they have "this" and "that" that no else has. Or claiming it makes a big difference to have "this" or "that".

But believe me, if say tomorrow I only had to play solid state rectifier amp, that's fine with me. Most of my amps are solid state rectifier and I'm happy with their tones.

Am I getting hypocrite?

So best bet, try an amp with a "tube rectifier". You maybe a canidate of this type of amp because you said you like to push the power state tube distortion. That tells me you have a discriminating ear.

 

[no soul]

I realize the relationship between power rating and volume is likely nonlinear but is a reasonable conclusion?

Thanks guys

Understatement of the century.

I really need to get a mod to make a sticky post about that the relationship of power vs volume.