New Video: C90 (Black Shadow) vs Vintage 30 Speaker Compare

[HaggertysMusic]

I posted this in the Mark V forum as well, but I think it can be of benefit to anyone considering a boogie combo. Boogie will gladly put a vintage 30 in place of a C90 at no extra charge, and it's crucial that you get the speaker with the right voice for your tone. Here's a video we made with the Mark V combo, showing the differences between these two classic speakers.

Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lJYmOKC4h0

 

[YellowJacket]

WOW, they are surprisingly different. Never underestimate speaker choice in shaping tone. You guys are really doing great with all the comparison vids. I'm sure it helps people out immensely.

Strange thing, I generally like the sound of a c90 better when I hear it live than when it is recorded. IN my oversized 2 x 12 I have a c90 and a v30. It splits the different and works very well tonally.

 

[HaggertysMusic]

WOW, they are surprisingly different. Never underestimate speaker choice in shaping tone. You guys are really doing great with all the comparison vids. I'm sure it helps people out immensely.

Strange thing, I generally like the sound of a c90 better when I hear it live than when it is recorded. IN my oversized 2 x 12 I have a c90 and a v30. It splits the different and works very well tonally.

In the Mk V combo it's opposite for me... I prefer theC90 recorded over hearing it live...

We had a lonestar 2x12 with a c90 + v30 and it was sweet. I may have to order a 2x12 rec loaded with both.

 

[MesaENGR412]

I love my V30/C90 X-patterned cabs. The speakers seem to blend really well together to broaden the overall tone structure of both of my heads. A little more "dynamic," if you will, than an all V30 cab. We also recorded with one head to a C90 (EL-34 I think) and one head to a V30 (6L6) on my band's new album and the tone turned out great. Didn't even have to re-amp, just ran them in stereo like I do live. Super stoked on how they sound recorded. Thanks for the demo. If I needed a dealer to buy amps through, I'd seriously consider you guys. You seem to go the extra mile to show the gear that you sell, and you know it well. I respect that a lot.

-AJH

 

[YellowJacket]

WOW, they are surprisingly different. Never underestimate speaker choice in shaping tone. You guys are really doing great with all the comparison vids. I'm sure it helps people out immensely.

Strange thing, I generally like the sound of a c90 better when I hear it live than when it is recorded. IN my oversized 2 x 12 I have a c90 and a v30. It splits the different and works very well tonally.

In the Mk V combo it's opposite for me... I prefer theC90 recorded over hearing it live...

I haven't ever tried a Mark V. I'm just much more of a Marshall guy. My favourite Mesa amps are my 2 channel Dual and the Electra Dyne.

We had a lonestar 2x12 with a c90 + v30 and it was sweet. I may have to order a 2x12 rec loaded with both.

The Mesa Road King 2 x 12 comes with both speakers and that cab tears. I also will go down to the grave recommending the Mills Acoustics MACH212B. Seriously awesome design. It sounds wide, huge, and tight all at the same time.

I love my V30/C90 X-patterned cabs. The speakers seem to blend really well together to broaden the overall tone structure of both of my heads. A little more "dynamic," if you will, than an all V30 cab. We also recorded with one head to a C90 (EL-34 I think) and one head to a V30 (6L6) on my band's new album and the tone turned out great. Didn't even have to re-amp, just ran them in stereo like I do live. Super stoked on how they sound recorded. Thanks for the demo. If I needed a dealer to buy amps through, I'd seriously consider you guys. You seem to go the extra mile to show the gear that you sell, and you know it well. I respect that a lot.

-AJH

Do you find that the combination of c90s and v30s reduces fizz and improves the lead tone of the recto? Do you run 6L6s or EL-34s?

 

[Rkorn]

It is what i figured it was... the c90 is more balanced right?? is seems so!!!
Great video haggertys!!!

 

[GuitarGuy503]

V30 all the way.

 

[YellowJacket]

The v30 definitely is a great speaker for the Mark V.

 

[MesaENGR412]

Do you find that the combination of c90s and v30s reduces fizz and improves the lead tone of the recto? Do you run 6L6s or EL-34s?

Yes, I think they do to my ears. Together, they compliment each other and seem to enhance the other speaker's shortfalls. I run both types of tubes. One head has 6L6's and goes to one cab, the other head has EL-34's and goes to the other cab. Both are bold variac, EL-34 head runs recto tracking, 6L6 head runs silicon diodes on all three channels. I blend everything :lol:

-AJH

 

[J.J]

Another great vid from Haggerty's. You have done a great job of capturing how both speakers sound.

Personally I like the V30 for crunch tones and the C90 for clean and high gain.

One other thing that I also notice that I am not sure was captured in the video is that the V30 seems to breakup much earlier when the volume is increased. What level were the amps set to for the video ?

For a 4x12 , speaker beakup or cone cry would not normally be heard with the V30 or C90, but for a 1x12 combo , it is not to hard to get there with a V30.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Very good and accurate demo.

The V30 is thicker in the mids, breaks up earlier, is 'dirtier' overall, and has less top-end, and less really deep bottom end (not as easily audible over Youtube though - the V30 almost sounds bassier, but it's really in the low mids). The C90 is cleaner, more open-sounding and hi-fi, and has deeper lows and brighter highs. The V30 is often described as bright but this demo clearly shows that it's not - the peak is in the upper mids, not the treble.

But as Yellowjacket says, they sound even better together - the two sounds 'fit around' each other perfectly, the V30 gives you the thickness and punch and the C90 the width and clarity. If you have to pick just one it depends on the amp, and what you're trying to get from it.

 

[HaggertysMusic]

Another great vid from Haggerty's. You have done a great job of capturing how both speakers sound.

Personally I like the V30 for crunch tones and the C90 for clean and high gain.

One other thing that I also notice that I am not sure was captured in the video is that the V30 seems to breakup much earlier when the volume is increased. What level were the amps set to for the video ?

For a 4x12 , speaker beakup or cone cry would not normally be heard with the V30 or C90, but for a 1x12 combo , it is not to hard to get there with a V30.

I would say the amp was at a moderately loud volume! 90 Watt power setting, no fx loop, master set a bit over 1/4 of the way up.

 

[HaggertysMusic]

Very good and accurate demo.

The V30 is thicker in the mids, breaks up earlier, is 'dirtier' overall, and has less top-end, and less really deep bottom end (not as easily audible over Youtube though - the V30 almost sounds bassier, but it's really in the low mids). The C90 is cleaner, more open-sounding and hi-fi, and has deeper lows and brighter highs. The V30 is often described as bright but this demo clearly shows that it's not - the peak is in the upper mids, not the treble.

But as Yellowjacket says, they sound even better together - the two sounds 'fit around' each other perfectly, the V30 gives you the thickness and punch and the C90 the width and clarity. If you have to pick just one it depends on the amp, and what you're trying to get from it.

On the clean channel, I heard more BASS with the V30, sitting right next to it. Maybe it was low mids... but I could feel the cleans hit my gut!

From what everyone is saying here, one of each seems like the way to go. We will have to try it. Just ordered in a Royer R121 and P-SOLO preamp for our videos.... does this mean I need two now?!?!?! :shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[YellowJacket]

But as Yellowjacket says, they sound even better together - the two sounds 'fit around' each other perfectly, the V30 gives you the thickness and punch and the C90 the width and clarity. If you have to pick just one it depends on the amp, and what you're trying to get from it.

Yes, the c90 / v30 combination really de-fizzes the Dual Recto. You can hear in the video how it sounds like the treble frequencies are emphasized with the v30 gain tone, while the presence frequencies are emphasized with the c90 gain tone. It makes sense how when you combine them, the tone really balances well.

I'm contemplating a Greenback / G12H Heritage (55Hz Resonant Frequency) matchup to create the same balancing effect for vintage and low volume applications. Maybe the G12H 30 Anniversary would be better but I understand it has more extended highs. I get the impression that the highs of either flavour of G12H 30 are in a different frequency than that of the Greenback or V30. I was also very surprised that the Greenback and v30 are actually very similar sounding speakers save for the massive breakup a Greenback yields. In my thiele cab, they both seem to peak at around the same frequency which makes that cab very fizzy at low volumes. It is only when I turn it up that the fizz disappears and the massive crunch takes over. Considering that my Mock212B is supposed to be my cab for LOUD playing, it is pretty counter intuitive that it is actually capable of better low volume tones than the cab I had built for that specific purpose! For low volumes, you can't beat lower wattage vintage speakers which sound so much less stiff when the amp is almost off!!

From what everyone is saying here, one of each seems like the way to go. We will have to try it. Just ordered in a Royer R121 and P-SOLO preamp for our videos.... does this mean I need two now?!?!?! :shock: :shock: :shock:

VERY YES!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

BTW, I love hearing your chops. Do you do session work on the side? When you play, the dynamics, phrasing, and expression are all so polished. I really appreciate that!

 

[HaggertysMusic]

VERY YES!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

BTW, I love hearing your chops. Do you do session work on the side? When you play, the dynamics, phrasing, and expression are all so polished. I really appreciate that!

When I asked for a $2000 mic and preamp for our videos, the higher ups gave me this look: :roll: So, I don't really want to ask for a second one!

So MAYBE this would work. Road King 2x12. Royer R121 placed in between both speakers at a distance, SM57's close miced on each speaker, and blend them all together.

Thanks for the compliment on my playing. I think I'm pretty terrible, to be honest. There are so many great players out there! I don't think I'm anywhere close to being a 'session' guy who can look at charts and instantly process what's happening. I just enjoy playing and recording, and I'm fortunate enough to have a job that lets me do that! It's so awesome being able to walk into work every morning and just be excited and happy to be there. The Haggerty family are incredible people to work for.

 

[94Tremoverb]

So MAYBE this would work. Road King 2x12. Royer R121 placed in between both speakers at a distance, SM57's close miced on each speaker, and blend them all together.

I think that would be an excellent way to record it. That way you could also generate three samples from each performance to show the different tones and the combination tone, with *exactly* the same playing. Or, pan the 57s hard left and right and center the Royer so listeners can choose which to listen to as they go along.

 

[HaggertysMusic]

Panning the 57's is a great idea. I bet that would be just an awesome recorded tone!

We got the Royer and P-SOLO in today...... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Absolutely an incredible improvement in audio quality. Everyone who has heard it has dropped their jaw! We recorded some violin with it today, and my goodness it just made that violin sing!