New to Boogie's and need help! 2X12 MESA Roadster owner.

[YellowJacket]

Like I said earlier, I actually own an Epi with Gibson pickup too, and it pretty well sounds like mud plugged into my Mesa compared with my Gibson LP Custom...

This was my experience as well. More to a guitar than the pups!

 

[metalhd77]

Hey guys,

To your question on my age and experience pokerrules47, I am 33 years old and have been picking the guitar since I was 12. Only got serious about guitar for the last 10 years or so. I know I should be more savvy about these things, but I never really was one of those kids who locked themselves in there room and practiced 3 hours a day and read guitar magazines for the rest of the day.

I have a LOT to learn yet about playing, and also about equipment and effects, etc. But, it IS a lifelong learning experience. I am just a little behind for how long I have been playing. I love music, and even though I'm not that great of a player, I don't want to give up. I like the thrill of people cheering and dancing when you are on stage in the middle of a killer solo. That's what keeps me coming back.

So, the last year or so is when I really started researching all the ins and outs of tone, and decided to ditch the electronic crap and go with all tube amps on stage. Now I think I am realizing the effects of a low quality guitar through a high quality amp! I can't afford a true Gibson Les Paul right now, at least until the amp is paid for. So I was thinking about going with an electronics upgrade kit (500K pots, switchcraft toggle switch and jack, high quality resisters, and vintage 50's style wiring. Also, a new nut, tuners, Gotoh bridge system, or maybe a Bigsby tremolo?

I would ditch this guitar, but it means a lot to me cuz it was the main guitar I started gigging with 7 years ago in my first band. I think it's a great looking guitar even if it's not a Gibson. It will surely work well for a backup once I do get a Gibson, or a PRS custom.

Thanks to everybody for helping me out. I think I just need to spend more time with the amp and start adding effects one at a time. Also either George Lynch cables or Monster. Whichever is better?

Any of you guys have experience with either? Are there nice cable to be had that don't cost as much as the Monsters?

Also, how big of a issue is plugging the amp directly into the wall without using a power conditioner? I know that will only help clean the power, but you would have to spend $500 on a nice conditioner/line regulator unit. Maybe me and my other guitar player and bass player can go in on a unit?

Thanks guys!

-Jason

 

[YellowJacket]

So, the last year or so is when I really started researching all the ins and outs of tone, and decided to ditch the electronic crap and go with all tube amps on stage. Now I think I am realizing the effects of a low quality guitar through a high quality amp! I can't afford a true Gibson Les Paul right now, at least until the amp is paid for. So I was thinking about going with an electronics upgrade kit (500K pots, switchcraft toggle switch and jack, high quality resisters, and vintage 50's style wiring. Also, a new nut, tuners, Gotoh bridge system, or maybe a Bigsby tremolo?

Don't sink anymore money into that thing, trust me. The only way I'd suggest doing that is if you keep the original electronics and put them back in after you get your new axe.

Listen, what you can do is mess around with the pickup height. Try lowering the pole pieces and raising up the pickup height to cut the highs and phatten up the tone. This should help quite a bit. Just adjust everything until you get it right. Do set up your action while you are at it. If you set up the action first, the guitar will play far better which will make playing it easier and thereby improve tone.

As for guitars, you can ask people here for recommendations of good axes. There are some brands that are really high quality and not notoriously overpriced like Gibson. You actually have to be careful buying Gibsons because they are not all created equal. Some are GREAT instruments, most are mediocre, and some are absolute DOGS, and this is in the $2,000+ price bracket. (two names I hear often are 'Carvin' and 'Heritage')
You can either shop used (try before you buy) or start testing guitars on a regular basis until you can easily identify the exceptionally good ones. For instance, when I purchased my Gibson Les Paul, I tried every guitar in the store. It really helped me narrow down which instrument was worth spending all the $$$s on.

I would ditch this guitar, but it means a lot to me cuz it was the main guitar I started gigging with 7 years ago in my first band. I think it's a great looking guitar even if it's not a Gibson. It will surely work well for a backup once I do get a Gibson, or a PRS custom.

NEVER ditch your first guitar!

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

Jason... go out and try other amps, guitars... stuff. Please!!! Don't spend more money wishing things will turn the way you want them to.
I understand that it may take an effort to find stores or places to try but believe me: Where I live it's way more difficult.

Just try stuff by yourself and as many as you can. Don't listen to opinions like "this amp is garbage" because the tastes vary so much in musicians (specially guitar players) and one of these could be the amp of your dreams. Forget about youtube videos. When choosing an amp you must pay attention to TONE and FEEL. If the tone part is already condemned by the quality of the videos, server, etc., the part that concerns to feel... well, you understand. You must touch and play the **** thing.

Stop trying to transform something into something it wasn't meant to or cannot be.

See this topic I started some time ago

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=41857

I ended selling my Roadster and now I'm looking in a different way

Good luck. Hope you can manage to be happy in music as in life too

 

[pokerrules47]

And don't say "oh but this guitar was cool with other amps" (I used to think this once upon a time too) I answered that question earlier as well - Mesa's are a very honest amp, and if your guitar sucks, a Mesa will certainly let you know about it more than any other amp I have played will.

Good luck with all that other stuff anyway.

Love this quote...

I would add that a Mesa can really make a "good" guitar player shine, but it's going to make a mediocre one sound worse as these amps articulate notes very sharply. It takes some getting used to, and generally will improve one's playing abilities in the mean time.

I am rarely satisfied with my sound when I play alone, but in my band, I am totally happy with it.

My problem is when people come online and blame the $2000 amp they just bought for lousy sound. They usually use adjectives like "flubby" "fizzy" or "lack of gain" etc. Incidentally, even ch1 and 2 in a roadster are considered "high gain", even though there is not as much distortion in the sound, it's still a "high gain" circuit. The "gain" of a circuit does not necessarily mean it's going to be super distorted. People mis-use (read abuse) the gain control on mesa amps more than any other control.

The conversation usually then goes on to explain that they have all kinds of pedals in front, and in the loop of the amp to try and fix tone issues... which to me, is a huge no no... Get a decent tone without anything first... then you can move on to putting effects in, to enhance your "already" good tone, and not fix bad tone.

Another point that people often misunderstand is the use of attenuators, power soaks etc. They are pretty much useless on an amp like a Mesa Boogie, specially the roadster. The roadster *for all intents and purposes** has a built in attenuator (read channel masters and global output knobs). Use these controls to get that "cranked" sound without deafening yourself. But don't kid yourself, it's still going to be F'ing loud... You still have to push the speakers...


My point is, the quest for tone is never ending, and it's a learning curve, and sometimes a very expensive one at that. I have seriously owned probably about 30k worth of different amps effects and guitars in my lifetime. The original post has all the earmarks of the "why don't i sound like X artist on X album" even though he didn't come right out and say it. He's looking for tone that quite simply is beyond the capabilities of any amp, in a bedroom, or sitting in a jam room, or even on a stage. Once the expectations change, appreciation for what you have will be tremendous.

 

[Bruno Petrucci]

The conversation usually then goes on to explain that they have all kinds of pedals in front, and in the loop of the amp to try and fix tone issues... which to me, is a huge no no... Get a decent tone without anything first... then you can move on to putting effects in, to enhance your "already" good tone, and not fix bad tone.

^ This!

If you don't like the tone that you can build from the amp alone, then you must look for other ones in the market

 

[YellowJacket]

Haha, why are we still jumping all over the amp like it is the ONLY potential problem?
The problem might lie somewhere else in the signal chain. Speakers, speaker enclosure, guitar, and pickups are all incredibly strong tone shaping entities that don't get enough press in my opinion. The undergained trebly sound he complains of sounds potentially like a guitar / pickup problem as much as an amp problem. I did explain already how he could adjust the pickup to potentially improve tone. I'm curious how that will workout for him. In fact, that should be the absolute first thing he does.
1) guitar set up.
2) pickup adjustment. I would almost bet money his guitar isn't set up right and setting up his pickups will really give more sustain and beef to the sound.

In my opinion, to get a good tone you have to figure out the GUITAR first of all. The amp only amplifies the guitar and then the speakers shape this further. ONCE he has a good guitar he really loves, THEN he can begin to test the amp and finally what speakers he puts in it. The other option is having multiple different guitars to get different tones. For instance, a Strat and a Tele sound VASTLY different from each other and from a Les Paul. A PRS sounds different again.

I've said this once and I'll say it again. Take thee, thine guitar, and thine amp to a music store. A/B guitars. You hate your tone, you have to identify the CULPRIT! Once you rule out the guitar, then you can move onto the amp and speakers. My approach is to find THE guitar at the store, and then, using that guitar, unhook the internal speakers from the amp and start trying different cabs. If you don't know what speakers are in which cab models, look it up online and write it down if possible. IF the amp is THE AMP for you, you will know it after doing these tests. If the amp is NOT for you, you will also know it. It simply WILL NOT do it for you with any guitar or speaker combination. Trust me, even $20 in petrol is far less $$$s than $300 for overpriced chinese Celestions or $200 for hand picked tubes.

The last thing. Maybe the sound of your ROOM sucks? Rooms are not dead spaces. They have resonance frequencies. There is typically a low one and a high one. The high one sounds paper-y and the low one sounds muddy. No matter what you do, you can't EQ it out. The minute you take the amp to a different room or a rehearsal space, it disappears. Keep this in mind on your quest.


I just have a problem with 'youtube clips' and internet research. For instance, I listened to the Mesa Boogie Electra Dyne vid and it sounded ok. In the video it is just another mesa amp and it sounds like it. When I tried one in person, I was absolutely floored at how awesome it was. So much nuance was lost in the recording process.

As for speakers and tubes this guy is doing too much 'internet research'. He just goes and orders new bottles and speakers for his amp without actually going to a store and trying them. Come on, there are tones of cabs at a music store and you can REALLY get an idea of the tone shaping potential each has.
As for tubes, I hear preamp tubes make a subtle difference. It is really the power tubes that shape the tone more. While I like fiddling with tubes, I discovered that changing the electronics and pickups in my Les Paul changed my tone by miles. I mean the guitar still sounds like a Les Paul but it is so much more clear, even, and phat sounding now!

I'm not saying the swap he is making won't be an improvement. It might be, but then again it might not be. The tubes aren't a bad investment since you always need extras, just don't sell those original speakers right away.

 

[volatileNoise]

And don't say "oh but this guitar was cool with other amps" (I used to think this once upon a time too) I answered that question earlier as well - Mesa's are a very honest amp, and if your guitar sucks, a Mesa will certainly let you know about it more than any other amp I have played will.

Good luck with all that other stuff anyway.

Love this quote...

I would add that a Mesa can really make a "good" guitar player shine, but it's going to make a mediocre one sound worse as these amps articulate notes very sharply. It takes some getting used to, and generally will improve one's playing abilities in the mean time.

+1

 

[jbird]

I would add that a Mesa can really make a "good" guitar player shine, but it's going to make a mediocre one sound worse as these amps articulate notes very sharply. It takes some getting used to, and generally will improve one's playing abilities in the mean time.

Uhh, OK? Ya ever play a Fryette/VHT? Thats articulation and note clarity! Mesa's....Not even...Don't scare the guy off...

 

[volatileNoise]

Uhh, OK? Ya ever play a Fryette/VHT? Thats articulation and note clarity! Mesa's....Not even...Don't scare the guy off...

So everyone that uses a Mesa wouldn't know, yet they are ALL tube amps and with similar EQ/gain stacking too I believe, but maybe with your settings this is true! :lol:

 

[jbird]

Uhh, OK? Ya ever play a Fryette/VHT? Thats articulation and note clarity! Mesa's....Not even...Don't scare the guy off...

So everyone that uses a Mesa wouldn't know, yet they are ALL tube amps and with similar EQ/gain stacking too I believe, but maybe with your settings this is true! :lol:

No, I believe alot of discussions here are about Mesa's "lack" of a "good" lead/articulation sound...On their own!
Sorry, can't digest that a Mesa will make a mediocre player sound worse because they articulate notes very sharp, just the opposite, they are known in most circles as great rhythm machines...That would be opposite of articulate playing!!!
They don't take time to get use to, they take time to dial in!
And no, all tube amps don't have similiar eq/gain stacking? :lol:

 

[volatileNoise]

I am saying an amp like the Pitbull, has a similar stacked gain stage I am pretty sure.

And not everyone likes to run a heap of mids, though this is exactly what it takes to get a crisp cutting sound with a Mesa, not just a muffled rhythm sound like every other bozo that is trying to mimic their metal kid bands on a heavily compressed commercially released CD.

Every time I hit a bum note live, everyone gets to hear it, I play in a 3 piece, and play loud enough to have a bigger sound than many other local bands that have two guitarists.

And my lead sound is awesome, especially with some very subtle effects used, and especially with delicate articulate playing, and the clean sound is exceptionally good too, so again this is ALL in the settings, not in the moronic attitude that a Mesa is a one trick pony.

 

[screamingdaisy]

No, I believe alot of discussions here are about Mesa's "lack" of a "good" lead/articulation sound...On their own!

Good lead tone starts with good touch on the guitar. It's why so many players suffer from "lack" of a "good" lead/articulation sound.

Sorry, can't digest that a Mesa will make a mediocre player sound worse because they articulate notes very sharp, just the opposite,

Depends on what flavour of "Mesa" we're talking about. Recto's are fairly forgiving for a Mesa. The Stiletto and Mark are not.

they are known in most circles as great rhythm machines...That would be opposite of articulate playing!!!

Only if you're a shitty rhythm player. If you lack articulation in your rhythm chops... well, that's your problem. Doesn't mean the rest of us suffer the same fate.

 

[YellowJacket]

No, I believe alot of discussions here are about Mesa's "lack" of a "good" lead/articulation sound...On their own!

Good lead tone starts with good touch on the guitar. It's why so many players suffer from "lack" of a "good" lead/articulation sound.

Screamingdaisy = 100% correct.

I have heard plenty of choppy lead playing in my day. Learning classical cello has really changed my viewpoint on practice approach and approach to legato line.
-Beginner and intermediate guitarists have a habit of ignoring dexterity and simply going for all out speed. This means that notes aren't fretted correctly and / or the pick attack does not match up correctly with when the note is fretted. These problems create a lack of fluidity or sustain when playing. Of course for fast playing you don't notice quite as much but the minute you slow things down, it becomes very obvious.
-I tend to advocate clean practice and playing as a technical foundation. I find that many difficult technique gamuts performed ACCURATELY can go a long way to increasing precision and thereby tone.
-Tension is also a problem. Learn to bring the strings down with 'hand weight' instead of clamping. This releases the hand to move faster and also allows for a vibrato. Trust me, vibrato goes a long way to adding sustain and life to tone.
-Gain. Solid state amps have more gain than most tube amps. Try it, you'll see. I find that the absolutely excessive gain saturation of a solid state amp tends to cover any inaccuracies in the playing.
I heard a guy who had a Line 6 POD running through a solid state guitar amp. He sounded great on that but the minute I plugged him into the Dual, I could hear every flubbed note.
That being said, I think lead playing or soloing requires much more gain than rhythm. I have found that when riffing or chording, I play very aggressively which agitates the strings and thereby gives a strong signal into the amp i.e. PHAT DISTORTION. But when playing solos, one must be gentle with the guitar. If you wack the strings the tone sounds uneven and choppy. Because a gentle attack = less gain, you have to boost gain to compensate. A boost pedal works or simply working the volume knob also works. /essay

Sorry, can't digest that a Mesa will make a mediocre player sound worse because they articulate notes very sharp, just the opposite,

Depends on what flavour of "Mesa" we're talking about. Recto's are fairly forgiving for a Mesa. The Stiletto and Mark are not.

Yes, fairly forgiving for a tube amp. They still are much more HONEST than a solid state or modeling amp.
Re: jbird, I don't care if someone can't 'digest' a fact, it is still a fact. In my experience the more expressive and musical an instrument can be, the more TERRIBLE it will sound in the hands of a beginner or intermediate. OK, consider that a cheap amp is NOT expressive. No matter how hard or soft you play, it makes one sound. With a good tube amp, many sounds are possible depending on how you play. The RESULT is that someone who cannot control this expressive parameter will get many sounds when a single consistent sound is desired.

Not convinced?

Take CELLO for instance. Bow control in and of itself is a *****. Imagine we have a beginner cello with frets. A mediocre player learns how to control the bow but when we remove the frets, all of the sudden the intonation is all over the place. That is essentially what is happening moving up from a solid state amp to a tube amp. Beginners would be much better served to get a 5watt tube amp when starting.

they are known in most circles as great rhythm machines...That would be opposite of articulate playing!!!

Articulation is THE fundamental part of rhythm. Again, lets reference string playing. With bowing I practice bow changes so the sound is an 'awwwwwwww'awwwww'awwwww'awwwwwww with as little break as possible. Think legato or sustain.
Then we have to work on articulations as well. 'Tick' 'Tick' 'Tick' 'Taaaaaaww' 'Tawwww'. For rhythm passage I play with a ticky sound, not with a legato tone. Rhythm IS articulation. Pure LEGATO is the opposite of this, something a string is much more capable of than a guitar.

I don't know about you but I find an elastic feel to be best for solos and an articulate feeling to be best for Rhythm. Just sayin'.

 

[metalhd77]

Very good points and explanation yellowjacket!!

That makes a lot of sense! I definitely need to work on my fretting and technique. Probably should be practicing on an acoustic. If I miss any notes, that is gonna be the most unforgiving instrument to play, so theoretically I will get better?

I always thought I had good dexterity, but you're right about the guitar/amp being forgiving when playing really fast. When I play slow, I think that is when my notes are dying. Need to probably work on my fretting and pick attack to get that "fluid" motion.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Accoustics are good, particularily since there's nothing else influencing the final result (ie, pickups, amp, pedals, whatever).

The only drawback is that an accoustic and electric are very different guitars. To be a good electric player you must (in my opinion) master the entire signal chain. IE, the amp is as much of an instrument as the guitar and you need to learn how to manipulate it with the guitar in the same way that you manipulate your guitar with your fingers/pick (ie, touch).

I'm going to disagree with Yellowjacket in that I don't feel that gain is that imporant for lead, but we've compared notes before and we're not going for the same thing tonally.

I should add that I used to think that the Recto had a mediochre lead tone. It wasn't until recently that I suddenly 'got it', and now that I've got it with the Recto I suddenly have a good lead tone through any amp. This was my own personal 'tone starts with the fingers' revelation.

 

[YellowJacket]

Very good points and explanation yellowjacket!!

That makes a lot of sense! I definitely need to work on my fretting and technique. Probably should be practicing on an acoustic. If I miss any notes, that is gonna be the most unforgiving instrument to play, so theoretically I will get better?

I always thought I had good dexterity, but you're right about the guitar/amp being forgiving when playing really fast. When I play slow, I think that is when my notes are dying. Need to probably work on my fretting and pick attack to get that "fluid" motion.

Acoustic guitar and Electric guitar are different instruments. Best thing to do to improve at electric guitar is to practice on an electric guitar, but using a sensitive and quality amp. I personally like to organize my practice time. I do exercises like variations of that chromatic ascending etude every guitarist knows, but using string crossings and skips as well.
I then work on scales, practicing inversions up and down the fretboard. I also have various sequences I like to use. The important thing is to get CONNECTED with the instrument and work up your technique before launching into playing music. My general suggestion about this is always to practice these warmup exercises clean and with a metronome. As a rule, I start out painfully slowly and then increase speed until it is uncomfortably fast and then back down the tempo slightly and play perfectly. The key here is ACCURACY. Small and accurate motions are best.

Then after this you can put in your favourite record and work on jamming with it. For lead playing, think about building a 'dictionary' of licks that you can put together while soloing. The licks are words and you are trying to tell a story.

For rhythm, learn music. Learn riffs and rhythm parts that sound cool to you and play with a metronome, using different speeds. This will help A LOT!
Of course I haven't been playing guitar lately but when I have time, organized practice goes a long way to helping me develop chops with a minimal time investment. (compared to many other players who would rather just 'play' 3 hours a day)

Just remember, ALWAYS START PAINFULLY SLOWLY. This Haydn C Major Concerto on Cello is a painful reminder of this truth. The third movement is a PIG!

I'm going to disagree with Yellowjacket in that I don't feel that gain is that imporant for lead, but we've compared notes before and we're not going for the same thing tonally.

Yes, I like extra gain saturation for searing solos. For my purposes, I often find that I like either MORE or LESS gain for soloing than what I want for my Rhythm channel. The invention of the volume knob is a WONDERFUL thing!

When I try to use my rhythm settings for lead, two things happen. 1) I am always THWACKING my guitar to try to get more gain out of it. This slows down my picking hand immensely.
2) My playing ends up sounding very similar to a punk rock sort of tone. Think Brian Baker or El Hefe.

If I want #2, then I simply use my rhythm settings! Typically though, the extra gain gives amazing sustain and it just scorches which is simply something I want sometime.

I should add that I used to think that the Recto had a mediocre lead tone. It wasn't until recently that I suddenly 'got it', and now that I've got it with the Recto I suddenly have a good lead tone through any amp. This was my own personal 'tone starts with the fingers' revelation.

Yes. While classical players bemoan a crappy instrument, they generally know that the magic is in the PLAYER. It is just so obvious when you try a $1,000,000 strad and you just don't sound like Rostropovich on it. Also consider that Rostropovich will still sound like Rostropovich on my student cello. (Probably the equivalent of a good Epiphone Les Paul with Gibson pickups. Costs over $4000 new. Go figure)

I think this overblown obsession with gear and tone is exclusive to guitarists, partially because gear is SO inexpensive compared to what the symphony guys need to fork out. ($7,000 vs $30,000 - $50,000 or up) The other problem is that people just are simply unaware of their own part in the signal chain. It was SO obvious to me this summer because I heard several different good players play my rig. What stunned me was how each player sounded so VERY different with my guitar, my amp, and my settings.

When I play, it sounds thick, chunky, beefy and phat. I have a very aggressive and percussive style. The leads scream. When the GNR guy played, the amp sounded much more classic rock almost like a marshall. It was INCREDIBLE. The acoustic guitar sounded like light rock and my metal friend sounded like, well, METAL!

Touch sensitivity on a tube amp is INCREDIBLE. It is seriously amazing the number of tones one can coax out of a 2 channel amp with one guitar!

 

[c.t.d-nicke]

The other problem is that people just are simply unaware of their own part in the signal chain.

Amen


nicke

 

[jbird]

To clarify: I recently did a trade which brought me back to Mesa...A Roadster combo...Love it! On my end was a Fryette/VHT Deliverance. Monetarily it may have not been an exactly even trade, but as players and musical styles, we both came out ahead! I'm primarily a rhythm player, not a bad lead guitarist, but you'll usually catch me riffing in a Helmet style rather than shredding...No shredder by any means. The guy I traded to was a shredder, he loved, and sounded great through the Deliverance! It's a very tight, unforgiving amp, an amp that yes, will showcase mistakes. I find the Rectifiers quite different in response than a Fryette/VHT, they are more forgiving and loose. When the OP was advised that his Rectifier may be unforgiving, would enhance mistakes, and should maybe look for something else, I convened! I do believe the inherent mid-scoop of the Rectifiers make your strings feel slinkier, just as the manual states, and mids create a stiffness. When I talk articulation, I'm trying to convey attack and tightness, not a style or ability of playing. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[YellowJacket]

Well, if you dial in a recto to be flubby it will be. For sake of argument, tube amps ::WHEN COMPARED TO SOLID STATE AMPS:: are much more transparent and honest.
Most people with half a brain aren't going to zero the mids and turn the bass way up for metal. My friend actually dimes the mids on his amp to get as tight a sound as possible. I personally will never run mids past half and I typically turn the bass down to a quarter. Furthermore, turning the gain back to noon for rhythm will give a very tight and articulate tone. Generally speaking, you dial in an amp to be tight and articulate for rhythm and you want more of a slinky or 'elastic' tone for lead playing. At least this is how I think of it.

I don't think the point of the thread is to nitpick over minor differences between tube amps when we were discussing the jump from solid state to tube. Perhaps you convened prematurely.