Mythbuster? Power tubes have little effect on tone

[simonich]

Power tubes have little effect on tone.

:roll:
I find this statement to be one that could only be made by a non-musician, or even if a trained scientist one who does his listening with electronic instruments rather than his ears. If power tubes have little or no effect on tone than why are there so many different types and preferences when it comes to power tubes. And as for the mythbuster part he sounds more like a mythmaker to me.

Well, uh, that's not what the guy said! :shock:

In the orignal post the guy was said to have asserted "Power tubes have very little to do with tone quality unless they are driven to clip". I think you guys are reading way too much into the guy's statement without understanding the specifics, which the original post lays out pretty well.

What kills me is folks that (hopefully admittedly) don't know much about electronics (which is fine, one can clearly play without knowing) telling a guy who does know the insides of an amp like the back of his hand that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If Geobull's description of what his friend said is accurate, I think the guy is right on. And again, he's not saying there isn't a difference in tone contributed by the power tubes. It's quite obvious he's not that stupid.

 

[phyrexia]

Here's a thought.

I can tell the difference between two types of 6L6 when they're not driven so hard as to clip, so why shouldn't I be able to tell the difference between an EL34 and a 6L6 when they're not driven to clip?

 

[simonich]

Here's a thought.

I can tell the difference between two types of 6L6 when they're not driven so hard as to clip, so why shouldn't I be able to tell the difference between an EL34 and a 6L6 when they're not driven to clip?

I personally can't think of a reason. Though who is suggesting you could not tell?

 

[edward]

Here's a thought.

I can tell the difference between two types of 6L6 when they're not driven so hard as to clip, so why shouldn't I be able to tell the difference between an EL34 and a 6L6 when they're not driven to clip?

I personally can't think of a reason. Though who is suggesting you could not tell?

Geo's acquaintance is suggesting such. I believe that's what phyrxia is suggesting and thus responding to. That if one could tell the diff between two same-family tubes, then one could certainly tell the diff when compared with tubes of a diff family. Furthermore, if the diffs are apparent when *not* driven to clip, then the diffs should be even more discernible when on clip.

Edward

 

[simonich]

Here's a thought.

I can tell the difference between two types of 6L6 when they're not driven so hard as to clip, so why shouldn't I be able to tell the difference between an EL34 and a 6L6 when they're not driven to clip?

I personally can't think of a reason. Though who is suggesting you could not tell?

Geo's acquaintance is suggesting such.

Edward

Ah, ok. I guess I was reading it different. When Geo's friend said "little to do" I didn't equate that to "you cannot tell a difference".

I thought his friend was more making a statement about the the degree to which power tubes affect the tone relative to other parts of the amp signal chain. I didn't interpret what he said as power tubes do not affect tone, which is how I guess some people are viewing what he said.

 

[t0aj15]

In the orignal post the guy was said to have asserted "Power tubes have very little to do with tone quality unless they are driven to clip". I think you guys are reading way too much into the guy's statement without understanding the specifics, which the original post lays out pretty well.

It's exactly the last part of that quote that I disagree with. The point I was trying to make is that I don't have to push an amp into clipping to hear a significant difference in power tubes. The rest of his dialog is pointless to me because it's merely an explanation of a statement I already disagree with.

 

[lyman]

Power tubes have little effect on tone.

:roll:
I find this statement to be one that could only be made by a non-musician, or even if a trained scientist one who does his listening with electronic instruments rather than his ears. If power tubes have little or no effect on tone than why are there so many different types and preferences when it comes to power tubes. And as for the mythbuster part he sounds more like a mythmaker to me.

Well, uh, that's not what the guy said! :shock:

In the orignal post the guy was said to have asserted "Power tubes have very little to do with tone quality unless they are driven to clip". I think you guys are reading way too much into the guy's statement without understanding the specifics, which the original post lays out pretty well.

What kills me is folks that (hopefully admittedly) don't know much about electronics (which is fine, one can clearly play without knowing) telling a guy who does know the insides of an amp like the back of his hand that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If Geobull's description of what his friend said is accurate, I think the guy is right on. And again, he's not saying there isn't a difference in tone contributed by the power tubes. It's quite obvious he's not that stupid.

well put.

 

[nomad100hd]

you guys are cracking me up!

BTW in the same amp different power tubes will sound different because 6L6 like to see a different optimal load than EL34 like to see. When switching tubes the load doesn't magically change to be optimized for each tube type.

I will say i can tell an EH 6l6, JJ 6l6, China 6L6 from each other in the same amp in a blind folded test. I can also tell if an amp has an EH 12ax7 in it, because i hate the sound of them so much. I could probably tell if an amp has a JJ 12ax7 but other than that i can't tell. I also build and repair tube amps myself.

You guys should see where on other forums, people will argue about how different caps, pots and resistor sound. It will crack you up!

 

[simonich]

you guys are cracking me up!

I will say i can tell an EH 6l6, JJ 6l6, China 6L6 from each other in the same amp in a blind folded test.

Yes! Someone did a blind test!

And yes, you're right. I'm even cracking myself up on this thread. 8)

 

[212Mavguy]

I'm cracking up too! Kudos for all here, despite the differences in opinions there is a lack of nastiness in the posts, thanks! Simonich and nomad100hd, +1 from here for the content of your posts. Strongly agree with both of you.

And happy tube rolling everybody!!!

All right, who's going to start a thread on speakers versus tubes for the biggest difference in tonemaking??? Or are we all in agreement on that one? :wink: Peace, rhythm, and tone.

 

[Joshusama]

My experience with the self-biasing THD Bivalve (which takes any octal-based power tubes) confirms pretty much what the friend says; before clip, the sound is not appreciably distinct from power tube to power tube. However, once in clip, the character of each type become quite noticeable indeed. This amp was based on exploiting this principle and serves a good way to control most, if not all, other variables (i.e. same circuit, transformers, speakers, preamp tubes, etc.)

I'm not a salesmen, but if you want more info:

Bivalve Manual for info: http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:z5sAqrnc8iAJ:www.thdelectronics.com/BiValve_Manual_080105.pdf+thd+bivalve+cathode&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

 

[waxnsteel]

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5144931
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5144956
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5144983
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5145014

For those I played through the Road King with the channel masters maxxed, and the solo/master/loops bypassed, and recorded a direct output signal into my recording interface. Then I used a reamp box to replay the exact performance once through the 6L6s, then through the EL34s. The only knob I adjusted was to select 6L6s or EL 34s. All the rest of the knobs stayed put. There's only one variable - the power tubes.

VERY LITTLE difference.

Here's a similar study with my Budda. It has one preamp channel, but can switch between 2 6L6s(with a master volume) and 4 EL84s(with an attenuator). Again, high volume. Most likely too loud for most clubs around here.

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5117704

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5117689

This one was a bit less "scientific" - I just played, then switched and played almost the same thing again.

And that's a cathode biased amp. Both amps are being pushed very hard. If you TRULY hear a difference, the only way you'll get me to believe you're not kidding yourself, at least regarding these amps or the Randall power amp, post me clips. Hold it to one variable - don't move the mic, knobs, change guitars, speaker cabs... you get the point - if you don't it's because you don't want to.

I am of the opinion that speakers/cabs make a much bigger difference, and power tube type makes little difference. Definitely not to the effect that putting EL34s in your mesa will make it sound like a MArshall.

Here's a clip of 3 different cabs.
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5247205

 

[waxnsteel]

Power tubes have little effect on tone.

:roll:
I find this statement to be one that could only be made by a non-musician, or even if a trained scientist one who does his listening with electronic instruments rather than his ears.

I find this statement to be ridiculous. There are plenty of musicians (and I use the term loosely) who can't tell the difference between tubes and modelers, and plenty who don't even care.

 

[simonich]

+1 8)

 

[waxnsteel]

I'll take your silence to mean myth confirmed :lol:

 

[nomad100hd]

don't have the same amp with different tubes, but i can clearly tell a difference and can tell what tubes are in an amp from just listening to them in most cases. I would suggest if you want to hear clips try over at SE Watt people are putting different power tubes in VJ and you can tell a differnce.

 

[simonich]

don't have the same amp with different tubes, but i can clearly tell a difference and can tell what tubes are in an amp from just listening to them in most cases. I would suggest if you want to hear clips try over at SE Watt people are putting different power tubes in VJ and you can tell a differnce.

Clearly a difference can be heard. The discussion is really about the amount of difference when the tubes are not clipping. When clipping the difference is dramatically clear. I can't tell when people post they can hear a difference if they are referring to a power section that is not clipping, or one that is. The "myth" is only about the former.

 

[waxnsteel]

I have to disagree. It may be dramatic in some amps (I have not heard any) but those amps I used to make the clips are full tilt, and the differences are very slight even using the original uncompressed files and listening through my studio monitors (only Mackies, but they're accurate enough). I've heard slight differences, like slightly extended lows, a hair more mids, but nothing dramatic.

EL 34s in a tweed bassman don't make the amp sound like a JTM 45, or vice versa. Play that Bassman through a 4x12 with greenbacks, and it WILL sound very much like the Marshall does. Same as running the Marshall through the bassman's speakers (assuming properly matched impedance) and it will sound very much like the bassman. Those amps use the same circuit design. Components are different, but the largest contributors to those differences are the speakers/cabs, and the transformers.

I'll bet in some of those amps, like the Superbaby, Univalve, GT Solo, Bivalve, there's a more noticeable change, but the Circuit design and speaker/cab choice - IMO and E - are what truly define the amp's flavor. If anyone has any clips created in a somewhat controlled manner, I'd love to hear them.

You want marshall out of your fender, change speakers, try some pedals, or get a Marshall.

Believe me, I wanted the tube swapping feature to make a big difference in those amps. It just doesn't. I just love the sounds I get out of em.

****, I type too much.

 

[nomad100hd]

I've heard different 6l6's make my amp sound like totally different amps if I hadn't gave them away i'd make some clips. I could make some clips of my VJ with 2 different brand of el84 and they would both sound different. So i don't see why 2 different kinds of tubes would sound the same. Though your clips do sound the same to me. wait i have a link to a clip of a HO that they change power tubes in and you can clearly hear a difference.

http://annex.ax84.com/media/ax84_m158.mp3

change occurs after the feedback

I think a lot of difference is also in how the tube responds to your playing.

 

[waxnsteel]

I've heard different 6l6's make my amp sound like totally different amps if I hadn't gave them away i'd make some clips.

I wish I could have heard that. I've heard differences after a biasing, after tube changes (same brand, and different brand), and while there are subtle differences, I'd never say they sounded like totally different amps. I don't dispute that it's possible, just hasn't been my experience.

Even in the clip you posted, though I did favor the first part to the second, still sounded like very much the same amp.