Lonestar Special output impedance question

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AdmiralB said:
ja22y said:
I don't think that is true. Mismatch is safe when the output is going to a load with higher impedance and not when the load has lower impedance, depedning on how much lower. If the output is at 8 ohm and the cab is 4 ohm, it will draw twice the current then if the cab is 8 ohm. Meaning the tube will be driven twice as hard.

This is potentially disasterous advice. NEVER place a higher (numerically) load on a tube amp.

Lower is safe...the load asks for more current, the tube simply refuses to provide it. And actually, the same is true for higher loads, EXCEPT higher loads create extreme flyback voltages.

Tube amps don't work like solid-state devices.

I'm confused Admiral. Everything I've read (including the Mesa manuals) says a safe mismatch is "...running a higher resistance (for example: 8 ohm output into a 16 ohm cabinet)... A slight mismatch can provide a darker, smoother tone with a little less output and attack. This response is a result of the amplifier running a bit cooler."

Isn't that what ja22Y is saying? If the amp runs cooler when the resistance of the speaker is greater than the ouput resistance, then it stands to reason the amp will run hotter when the opposite occurs? When the speaker load is lower than the output load (as you suggest), won't the tube act like a runaway train until it redlines and self-destructs (hypothetically)?
 
The amp doesn't run any cooler with a mismatch. That's bogus and they should be ashamed of themselves for saying that.

Go here, to R.G. Keen's tube amp FAQ:

http://www.geofex.com/tubeampfaq/TUBEFAQ.htm#mismatch

The salient points:

It's almost never low impedance that kills an OT, it's too high an impedance.

The power tubes simply refuse to put out all that much more current with a lower-impedance load, so death by overheating with a too-low load is all but impossible - not totally out of the question but extremely unlikely. The power tubes simply get into a loading range where their output power goes down from the mismatched load. At 2:1 lower-than-matched load is not unreasonable at all.

If you do too high a load, the power tubes still limit what they put out, but a second order effect becomes important.

There is magnetic leakage from primary to secondary and between both half-primaries to each other. When the current in the primary is driven to be discontinuous, you get inductive kickback from the leakage inductances in the form of a voltage spike.

This voltage spike can punch through insulation or flash over sockets, and the spike is sitting on top of B+, so it's got a head start for a flashover to ground. If the punchthrough was one time, it wouldn't be a problem, but the burning residues inside the transformer make punchthrough easier at the same point on the next cycle, and eventually erode the insulation to make a conductive path between layers. The sound goes south, and with an intermittent short you can get a permanent short, or the wire can burn though to give you an open there, and now you have a dead transformer.

So how much loading is too high? For a well designed (equals interleaved, tightly coupled, low leakage inductances, like a fine, high quality hifi) OT, you can easily withstand a 2:1 mismatch high.


Note that he says the OT can withstand the spikes...that does NOT mean that the tubes can.
 
Roadkinger wrote:
OK... let me see if my thoughts are correct then. So, according to the info on this thread I should be OK running the combo speakers into the optionl jack which is 8ohm and run my recto cab which is 4ohm to one of the other jacks since they are 4ohm. Am I getting it right? Or are the other regular jacks 16ohm?

Roadkinger,

The outputs are:

@30W: optional = 8 ohms, mains = 4 ohms
@15/5W: optional = 16 ohms, mains = 8 ohms

I think you would be best running the two cabs from the two main jacks.

the combination of the 8 ohm and 4 ohm speaker load is 3.7 ohms-fairly close to 4 ohms

if you are set to 30W, the mains are expecting a 4 ohm load, you are at 3.7--close enuff

if you are set to 15/5W, the mains are expecting an 8 ohm load. You are at 3.7, close enuff to 4 ohms (2:1) to be safe.

However--you'd be better off with two matched loads of 8 ohms. the imbalance you have now guarantees that one cab will take most of the power. Can you sell or trade those 8 ohm speakers for two 16's or two 4's?
 
The Greenbacks that are in the recto cab belong to a good friend of mine, so I can't sell or trade them. Maybe i'll just lay down some cash for a pair of 16ohm Greenbacks or Vintage 30's. I run the amp at 30 watts 99% of the time. Thanks ricardo loma vista!!!!!
 
Well, the gig last tnight went pretty good. I ran the combo spakers and the recto cab speakers the the 2 main jacks on the back of the amp. This sounded much better the running the combo speakers to the optional jack and the recto cab to one of the main jacks. The highs weren't comprimised at all. The only thing I did notice was that my clean headroom was effected a little. I had to turn down the gain on both channels from where I usually have it. Is this normal? I s this caused by the way im ruunign the amp?
 
Hey there - another NEW Boogie Board member and a NEW LSS owner.
In fact my first Mesa product ever.

I also find the explanation on the use of the amp's speaker outputs pretty
vague in the manual, as well as on the back plate.

I want to run the internal 8 ohm speaker and add an 8 ohm V30 as an
extension speaker, at the same time. I want to run the power switch(es) @ 30w.

I can sure get it to work, but I am not sure if I have the speakers plugged into
the back panel in the "optimum" way for the amp.

SO....three speaker jacks on the back plate and I am not sure which two to use
for two separate 8ohm speaker cabs.

Boy do I feel dumb
 
Well, there are no outs on my amp marked with an impedance number.
4 ohms or otherwise.
I have 2 outs with lightning bolt, down pointing arrows, that point to
"For 30-15-5 watts"
And one out marked "Optional" For 35 watts
THAT's the strange one.
I will assume that the way that I tried it was what you are suggesting then.
Each of the "main" outs to an 8 ohm speaker.

Do YOU know what is up with the "Optional" For 35 watts output and
what kind of load that one is looking for....for ONE output jack??

Thanks ricardo!
 
Yes. The ones marked main outs are the ones that you plug into.

I can't find a schematic for this amp, but it appears that when four tubes are engaged in 30 watt mode, the optional Jack is from the 8 ohm tap on the transformer and the mains are from the four ohm tap. When you use the combo speaker plus the external speaker you have a four ohm load, so the mains are the ones to use.

In 30 watt mode, when you use just the combo speaker plugged into the main Jack, it's an 8 ohm speaker plugged into a four ohm Jack. That's OK, because Mesa designed for a 2:1 mismatch. But if you match the 8 ohm speaker to the optional 8 ohm Jack, you get a bit more out of the amp 35 watts.

I've tried both, and like the tone and feel of the main Jack's in 30 watt and 15 watt mode.

I believe that the reason Mesa doesn't Mark the outputs as 8 and 4 ohms is because the impedance will change when two tubes are taken out of the circuit in 15 watt mode. So in 15 watt mode, the mains are 8 ohm impedance, and the combo speaker alone with be matched in the main. Adding an extension speaker will create a mismatch when in the 15 watt mode. But again, no problem as its still within the 2:1 acceptable mismatch ratio.

Hope this helps.
 
BTW - I put one of my 8 ohm V30's into the LSS.
Didn't do too much damage in the process. :roll:
I like the sound a lot. Hard to go wrong with a Brit made V30.
It could be jus my magination, but the V30 in the LSS and the Mesa/Celestion in
an extension cab sounds better to me than when it was the other way around.
 
Lonestar Special 1x12 combo

Main Output Jack:

5,15 watt setting = 8 ohm
30 watt setting = 4 ohm

Optional Output Jack:

5,15 watt setting = 16 ohm
30 watt setting = 8 ohm

Many Bothans died to bring us this information...
 
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