IIC+ - GEQ - Mesa Pedal or F n' C

[Crimson King]

As previously posted, I'm picking up a factory IIC+ SR that I'm very excited about. While not fussed about the lack of the wired GEQ, I fully intend to add an eq in the loop. I appreciate that the frequencies don't match up, and the Mesa is likely infinitely higher quality, but I currently have a cheap Danelectro Fish n' Chips that sent some much more expensive pedals packing (albeit while running into Marshalls and Hiwatts).

So, am I likely going to gain much functionality by going the Mesa EQ pedal route over the Fish? Will it sound much better? Are there any other pedals or rack pieces that I should be looking at instead?

Btw, how do analog delays sound in the loop? Thanks.

 

[Markedman]

I have a C+ SRG and I get a great sound without the GEQ engaged. If you're looking to sound like Metallica or Pantera, you'll need an EQ in the loop, otherwise If you work the tone knobs enough, after a couple of months you may like the amp without an EQ in the loop. I say after a couple of months because I've found that after a couple of hours of intense listening my ears fade and the next day the amp sounds different, usually the tone is too brittle for me, so I start all over but after time my sound has finally arrived. The type of speaker and cabinet, pick up and guitar is very important and so are the tubes in attaining a great tone. The C+ makes for a great metal machine and if the fish and chips sounds great, still try some others, I didn't like some boost pedals in the loop, others worked fine. I would definitely try the Mesa GEQ, it's made for this. I was using an MXR micro amp in the loop for boost which worked great but now I'm using the GEQ for boost and I love that because the boost is nice and focused compared with just raising the volume.
I have a T-rex delay that is in line because I only want to delay the guitar signal, YMMV on that.

 

[Crimson King]

I have a C+ SRG and I get a great sound without the GEQ engaged. If you're looking to sound like Metallica or Pantera, you'll need an EQ in the loop, otherwise If you work the tone knobs enough, after a couple of months you may like the amp without an EQ in the loop. I say after a couple of months because I've found that after a couple of hours of intense listening my ears fade and the next day the amp sounds different, usually the tone is too brittle for me, so I start all over but after time my sound has finally arrived. The type of speaker and cabinet, pick up and guitar is very important and so are the tubes in attaining a great tone. The C+ makes for a great metal machine and if the fish and chips sounds great, still try some others, I didn't like some boost pedals in the loop, others worked fine. I would definitely try the Mesa GEQ, it's made for this. I was using an MXR micro amp in the loop for boost which worked great but now I'm using the GEQ for boost and I love that because the boost is nice and focused compared with just raising the volume.
I have a T-rex delay that is in line because I only want to delay the guitar signal, YMMV on that.

Hey, thanks - that was very helpful. I'll be using my '13 Gibson R8 for the most part along with my old Strat Plus. The combo has a MS12 in it, so a EVM12 might be an option down the line.

Not to sound cheap but $250 for an EQ is not negligible, especially if a $30 pedal will get me there as well. Just not sure if it will be a night and day difference. Of course, there's the Presonus EQ3B that Mike was apparently recommending at some point - and those are only about $100 used (although they've received pretty bad reviews).

 

[revgsmall]

I have a IIc+ with no GEQ and a Mark III with. I've also owned other IIc+ amps fully loaded. I always come back to my 100 watt IIc+ with a reverb unit in the effects loop. I don't feel any need to have a GEQ on it. My Mark III is a different story, I am glad its there as it rounds out the amp quite nicely. Of course all this depends on that kind of music you are doing which is?????

 

[LesPaul70]

Personal opinion - don't skimp on the EQ pedal. You've got one of the greatest amps ever built, why compromise its tone with cheap pedals? The chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And in my experience, a weak pedal can be just that.

The example I can give is the huge improvement in tone I experienced when I moved from a Boss GE-7 to an MXR EQ. The Boss was leftover from my 1980s band and it turned out to be plain unusable with Boogies - even when all sliders were set to neutral, it colored the tone too much, making it sound cheap and plasticy. The MXR, OTOH, retains the amp tone I love.

(Today, the weakest link in my sonic chain...is me. :lol: )

Of course, if you don't hear a difference with the FnC pedal, you can safely ignore what I said above...

 

[ryjan]

In this particular scenario you get what you pay for.

 

[psychodave]

My 2C+ has a GEQ and I've tried turning it off and using a Boogie 5 band EQ in the loop. While using the EQ in the loop ok, the stock onboard GEQ sounds 100% better. I only play high gain and think any Mark series amp without a GEQ sounds like an AM radio. Just my opinion. :lol:

 

[Buster Leggs]

My 2C+ has a GEQ and I've tried turning it off and using a Boogie 5 band EQ in the loop. While using the EQ in the loop ok, the stock onboard GEQ sounds 100% better. I only play high gain and think any Mark series amp without a GEQ sounds like an AM radio. Just my opinion. :lol:

I'm sure your just kidding about the AM thing (sort of) but I don't doubt your comparison with the on board GEQ and the boogie 5 band in the loop. I've actually never heard any feed back on the matter (on board vs boogie eq) so I can only believe that in your opinion you have a valid point. You also said that you play high gain, probably very high gain and I think under those circumstances the EQ becomes much more an integral part of the desired tone. I'm more in the revgsmall camp. I have pluses with and without on board GEQ's. And even when I'm playing through one with a GEQ, I don't use it. The only time I've ever used it was a couple of times when playing in a very funky sounding room to compensate. I'm also not a extremely high gain player. It dose surprise me that the boogie EQ doesn't come close to the on board, I know it enters at a different point in the signal chain (I think) but my understanding was that the boogie EQ pedal mirrors the on board EQ. But then again that's just me and I've so much to learn. Oh yeah, just my opinion.

 

[Brad737]

Dave, have you tried running the EQ directly into the input? Just wondering how it would sound there. I just got my first Boogie, and it doesn't have EQ, so I was planning on getting the Mesa Five Band Graphic pedal.
Thanks,
Brad

My 2C+ has a GEQ and I've tried turning it off and using a Boogie 5 band EQ in the loop. While using the EQ in the loop ok, the stock onboard GEQ sounds 100% better. I only play high gain and think any Mark series amp without a GEQ sounds like an AM radio. Just my opinion. :lol:

 

[psychodave]

Of course my AM radio comment was tongue in cheek, but the sounds I'm after, I have no use for the Mark amps without the GEQ engaged... Just as someone may never need to use the GEQ. :wink: :lol: I do like the Boogie EQ a lot. At first I was adjusting too much and it overpowered everything I use with it. Now I just use it a tad here and there, although it is fun to scoop the mids on both the GEQ and 5 band in the loop. :lol:

Brad, I just tried the boogie EQ in front without the GEQ and it is ok, but nothing special. Sounds almost like a fuzz pedal if you drop the mids or increase the bass too much. Using it sparingly and adjusting the input and output levels yields better sound.

 

[Brad737]

Thanks, Dave. My IIC (soon to be +) doesn't have EQ, so I think my best option is the Five Band in the loop.
Thanks,
Brad

Of course my AM radio comment was tongue in cheek, but the sounds I'm after, I have no use for the Mark amps without the GEQ engaged... Just as someone may never need to use the GEQ. :wink: :lol: I do like the Boogie EQ a lot. At first I was adjusting too much and it overpowered everything I use with it. Now I just use it a tad here and there, although it is fun to scoop the mids on both the GEQ and 5 band in the loop. :lol:

Brad, I just tried the boogie EQ in front without the GEQ and it is ok, but nothing special. Sounds almost like a fuzz pedal if you drop the mids or increase the bass too much. Using it sparingly and adjusting the input and output levels yields better sound.

 

[Crimson King]

Thanks for all the help. I ordered the Mesa 5-band, so we'll see. From talking to Mike B., the Mesa 5-band in the loop is just the same and perhaps a tad better - hence my decision for the pedal instead of installing/upgrading the GEQ.

Also - just edited the post since I read Dave's follow-up. DAVE - are you saying the pedal is more powerful in shaping than the stock GEQ?

 

[LesPaul70]

Brad, I just tried the boogie EQ in front without the GEQ and it is ok, but nothing special. Sounds almost like a fuzz pedal if you drop the mids or increase the bass too much. Using it sparingly and adjusting the input and output levels yields better sound.

That's to be expected.
Placed in front, it is before your preamp gain and will have an effect on how hard the different frequencies hit the preamp. In other words, it functions as a kind of adjustable boost pedal, not so much as a tone control.

In the loop, it allows you to sculpt your tone by finetuning the frequencies, which is closer to what the onboard GEQ does.

 

[Crimson King]

My 2C+ has a GEQ and I've tried turning it off and using a Boogie 5 band EQ in the loop. While using the EQ in the loop ok, the stock onboard GEQ sounds 100% better. I only play high gain and think any Mark series amp without a GEQ sounds like an AM radio. Just my opinion. :lol:

I'm sure your just kidding about the AM thing (sort of) but I don't doubt your comparison with the on board GEQ and the boogie 5 band in the loop. I've actually never heard any feed back on the matter (on board vs boogie eq) so I can only believe that in your opinion you have a valid point. You also said that you play high gain, probably very high gain and I think under those circumstances the EQ becomes much more an integral part of the desired tone. I'm more in the revgsmall camp. I have pluses with and without on board GEQ's. And even when I'm playing through one with a GEQ, I don't use it. The only time I've ever used it was a couple of times when playing in a very funky sounding room to compensate. I'm also not a extremely high gain player. It dose surprise me that the boogie EQ doesn't come close to the on board, I know it enters at a different point in the signal chain (I think) but my understanding was that the boogie EQ pedal mirrors the on board EQ. But then again that's just me and I've so much to learn. Oh yeah, just my opinion.

Factory installed GEQs are right before the loop. So in a sense, a pedal in the loop gives you more variety in terms of tone manipulation. Also, from speaking to Mike/Mesa, the 5-band is the same EQ as that installed in their amps. Same components operating at the same voltages.

 

[loylo69]

Wrong. The on-board GEQ is after the effect loop.
And wether it is before or after might not give more variety in terms of tone manipulation. I'd have to test this configuration in order to check if i can feel sonically what you are assuming.

The 5 band GEQ pedal by Mesa works with a 9V power supply. But there may be a built-in voltage multiplier inside the pedal to make it work at the same voltages as the on-board GEQ, around 30V. So I'm inclined to believe you and what MB told you. Thank you for those informations.

 

[Brad737]

That's great to hear. I just got my Boogie last week, and in the meantime I've played two others, both with GEQ. The GEQ makes a HUGE improvement to my ears. Since the onboard EQ comes after the loop, I think running the pedal in the loop should sound almost perfect.
Thanks!

 

[Crimson King]

Yes, might have got before/after mixed up, but it shouldn't make a practical difference if there is nothing pre-wired encumbering it in either applicable direction. My point about the added functionality was that it gives you the choice of eq'ing a modulated tone or modulating an eq'd tone. I'm not assuming this, there's a very really practical difference between the two generally.

Also, yes, there is multiplier in the pedal - I think there's even a post by a Mesa customer service rep on here or rig-talk confirming.

Again, the lowly fish n' chips in the loop sounds great and adds very little noise. If the the pedal even slightly improves upon this, I'll be content - especially after speaking to MB about this.

 

[psychodave]

My 2C+ has a GEQ and I've tried turning it off and using a Boogie 5 band EQ in the loop. While using the EQ in the loop ok, the stock onboard GEQ sounds 100% better. I only play high gain and think any Mark series amp without a GEQ sounds like an AM radio. Just my opinion. :lol:

I'm sure your just kidding about the AM thing (sort of) but I don't doubt your comparison with the on board GEQ and the boogie 5 band in the loop. I've actually never heard any feed back on the matter (on board vs boogie eq) so I can only believe that in your opinion you have a valid point. You also said that you play high gain, probably very high gain and I think under those circumstances the EQ becomes much more an integral part of the desired tone. I'm more in the revgsmall camp. I have pluses with and without on board GEQ's. And even when I'm playing through one with a GEQ, I don't use it. The only time I've ever used it was a couple of times when playing in a very funky sounding room to compensate. I'm also not a extremely high gain player. It dose surprise me that the boogie EQ doesn't come close to the on board, I know it enters at a different point in the signal chain (I think) but my understanding was that the boogie EQ pedal mirrors the on board EQ. But then again that's just me and I've so much to learn. Oh yeah, just my opinion.

Factory installed GEQs are right before the loop. So in a sense, a pedal in the loop gives you more variety in terms of tone manipulation. Also, from speaking to Mike/Mesa, the 5-band is the same EQ as that installed in their amps. Same components operating at the same voltages.

I'm sticking with what I said, I thought the onboard GEQ sounded better than the boogie EQ in the loop (but using the loop was still very cool). I don't think the boogie EQ pedal has transistors in it like the onboard GEQ. The onboard sound sweeter to me. I wonder if anyone else has made the comparison? FWIW, I have 2 Boogie EQ pedals... so I do like them.

 

[Crimson King]

I'm sticking with what I said, I thought the onboard GEQ sounded better than the boogie EQ in the loop (but using the loop was still very cool). I don't think the boogie EQ pedal has transistors in it like the onboard GEQ. The onboard sound sweeter to me. I wonder if anyone else has made the comparison? FWIW, I have 2 Boogie EQ pedals... so I do like them.

That's cool, but what you're saying seems inconsistent. You say the onboard is 100% better, but later say that the pedal is also very cool but just not as good. Not trying to nitpick, but either you're really into hyperbole or your tastes/opinions change by the minute. Also, they don't appear to match up with general recommendations out there that an EQ in the loop - much less a Mesa EQ - matches closely with the onboard GEQ.

Mesa has repeatedly told me and has posted on the web that it's the same EQ, using the same parts. In fact, they actively persuaded me to choose the cheaper pedal than paying more in retro-fitting my amp.

Finally, have you compared your GEQ equipped IIC+ with non-EQ model running the pedal in the loop? Given the noted differences between the EQ and non-EQ models, and the fact that you can't equate them by merely turning off the EQ, I think that's a more accurate comparison. Otherwise it's apples to oranges.

 

[psychodave]

I'm sticking with what I said, I thought the onboard GEQ sounded better than the boogie EQ in the loop (but using the loop was still very cool). I don't think the boogie EQ pedal has transistors in it like the onboard GEQ. The onboard sound sweeter to me. I wonder if anyone else has made the comparison? FWIW, I have 2 Boogie EQ pedals... so I do like them.

That's cool, but what you're saying seems inconsistent. You say the onboard is 100% better, but later say that the pedal is also very cool but just not as good. Not trying to nitpick, but either you're really into hyperbole or your tastes/opinions change by the minute. Also, they don't appear to match up with general recommendations out there that an EQ in the loop - much less a Mesa EQ - matches closely with the onboard GEQ.

Mesa has repeatedly told me and has posted on the web that it's the same EQ, using the same parts. In fact, they actively persuaded me to choose the cheaper pedal than paying more in retro-fitting my amp.

Finally, have you compared your GEQ equipped IIC+ with non-EQ model running the pedal in the loop? Given the noted differences between the EQ and non-EQ models, and the fact that you can't equate them by merely turning off the EQ, I think that's a more accurate comparison. Otherwise it's apples to oranges.

I was just trying to be more polite in my 2nd response. But, again, the onboard GEQ is yes, 100% better to me. BUT, it wasn't like the pedal EQ sucked. I just heard a big difference. If I had a choice, I would take the onboard GEQ 100% of the time over a non GEQ. There was a non GEQ 2C+ for sale on TGP for $800 last year and it sat for a long time. If I thought it sounded close with an EQ in the loop I would have bought it and enjoyed it.

I have spoken to someone at Boogie and they agreed with me that the pedal is NOT the same as the onboard GEQ. No need to have a pissing match about it though and I'm not going into my conversation about it.

I have not tried it through a non GEQ equipped 2c+. I only played one non GEQ 2C+ and I didn't like it.

Bottom line is if someone likes their amp with a EQ in the loop then that is great. No need to worry about what I think. 8)