Changing Tubes in the LSS

[Jared Purdy]

Hi, I'm new to the Mesa world, and have recently purchased a LSS. So far so good, though I haven't had for more than a few days. When I bought a Fender PRRI last summer, I noticed some tonal characteristics that I didn't like, so I did some searching on the web and found some answers. I changed all of the stock GT tubes for Tung Sols, and put a 12AY7 in V1 as with a 12AX7 in V1, the amp crapped out at about 5/10. My question, and this is in response to what I have read from some posters on this site, who say that the LSS doesn't have enough head room to be used in a club (unmiked), has anyone tried different manufacturer's tubes (like Tung Sol), and/or has anyone tried a 12AY7 in V1 to boost the head room?? I don't gig, so I'm not too worried about it crapping out. 30 watts is extremely loud in a house!
Thanks.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Just because the sound is clean doesn't mean there's more "headroom".
The 12AY7 has a gain factor of 45.
The 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100.
So, a 12AY7 has 55% less gain than a 12AX7.
As you have no doubt noticed, this yields a cleaner sound. This does not mean "more headroom". It means LESS.
In order to obtain the same degree of distortion as a 12AX7, the 12AY7 must be turned up roughly 55% more. You run out of room on the knob, see? To get the same sound as 3 on a 12AX7, the 12AY7 has to be cranked to 5.
That's less head room, not more. Headroom occurs when you get the sound you want and have lots of room left over to turn it up further without distortion.
Headroom means it's clean AND loud. 30 watts is nice and loud when doing it by yourself, but drummers, bass players, keyboards, and vocals quickly steal your headroom. The test is to run the master volume all the way up. Can you still get a clean sound with the rest of the band blasting? If not, you have just run out of headroom.
Hope this helps

 

[Jared Purdy]

Just because the sound is clean doesn't mean there's more "headroom".
The 12AY7 has a gain factor of 45.
The 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100.
So, a 12AY7 has 55% less gain than a 12AX7.
As you have no doubt noticed, this yields a cleaner sound. This does not mean "more headroom". It means LESS.
In order to obtain the same degree of distortion as a 12AX7, the 12AY7 must be turned up roughly 55% more. You run out of room on the knob, see? To get the same sound as 3 on a 12AX7, the 12AY7 has to be cranked to 5.
That's less head room, not more. Headroom occurs when you get the sound you want and have lots of room left over to turn it up further without distortion.
Headroom means it's clean AND loud. 30 watts is nice and loud when doing it by yourself, but drummers, bass players, keyboards, and vocals quickly steal your headroom. The test is to run the master volume all the way up. Can you still get a clean sound with the rest of the band blasting? If not, you have just run out of headroom.
Hope this helps

So, to compensate for the decreased volume (hense less head room, as yu put it), how about a better OT? When I put a better OT in my PRRI, it pushed the head room (volume)back up, and it also increased the ceiling for clean sound - substantially. With the 12AY7 in there as well, the yukky sound that the speaker was making past 5/12 became a thing of the past.

 

[fishyfishfish]

The OT is about the best you can get so I would try a super clean speaker like a EV, put the amp on a stand off the ground, and or add an extension cab with an EV or sim. speaker. Using a AY7 instead of a AX7 will clean up the preamp but you will need to crank up the output to compensate for the loss of volume in the preamp adding powertube distortion in the mix, so I would go with all AX7's in the preamp section.

 

[Jared Purdy]

Thanks for the reply, It's not somehtng that I am concerned with, and I don't plan on playing around with the tubes or the OT, though I would consider a Celestion G12 Gold. I asked the question as I keep reading posts from players who either use it or have used it, but claim that it doesn't have enough clean head room in a band situation. I found it odd, but hey, that's what they are saying! I don't use mine in a band, but I know how loud 30 watts is, and you could always mike it, if need be. On the other hand, I have read some posts from players who have used the amp in a 5 watt setting with a band (including a drummer).

 

[dangit]

Thanks for the reply, It's not somehtng that I am concerned with, and I don't plan on playing around with the tubes or the OT, though I would consider a Celestion G12 Gold. I asked the question as I keep reading posts from players who either use it or have used it, but claim that it doesn't have enough clean head room in a band situation. I found it odd, but hey, that's what they are saying! I don't use mine in a band, but I know how loud 30 watts is, and you could always mike it, if need be. On the other hand, I have read some posts from players who have used the amp in a 5 watt setting with a band (including a drummer).

i play the lss in clubs in a pretty loud blues based rock band w keys (always too loud!), harp player thru bassman (usually too loud!), bass, and drums (too loud too!) on the 5watt setting most of the time. no problem. sometimes i use 15 watts. i only use 30watts outdoors or if they're really pissing me off.

 

[Jared Purdy]

Thanks for the reply, It's not somehtng that I am concerned with, and I don't plan on playing around with the tubes or the OT, though I would consider a Celestion G12 Gold. I asked the question as I keep reading posts from players who either use it or have used it, but claim that it doesn't have enough clean head room in a band situation. I found it odd, but hey, that's what they are saying! I don't use mine in a band, but I know how loud 30 watts is, and you could always mike it, if need be. On the other hand, I have read some posts from players who have used the amp in a 5 watt setting with a band (including a drummer).

i play the lss in clubs in a pretty loud blues based rock band w keys (always too loud!), harp player thru bassman (usually too loud!), bass, and drums (too loud too!) on the 5watt setting most of the time. no problem. sometimes i use 15 watts. i only use 30watts outdoors or if they're really pissing me off.

Let em' have it with the 30 watt setting! That'll teach em'! That 5 watts is sublime eh!

 

[Jared Purdy]

Just because the sound is clean doesn't mean there's more "headroom".
The 12AY7 has a gain factor of 45.
The 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100.
So, a 12AY7 has 55% less gain than a 12AX7.
As you have no doubt noticed, this yields a cleaner sound. This does not mean "more headroom". It means LESS.
In order to obtain the same degree of distortion as a 12AX7, the 12AY7 must be turned up roughly 55% more. You run out of room on the knob, see? To get the same sound as 3 on a 12AX7, the 12AY7 has to be cranked to 5.
That's less head room, not more. Headroom occurs when you get the sound you want and have lots of room left over to turn it up further without distortion.
Headroom means it's clean AND loud. 30 watts is nice and loud when doing it by yourself, but drummers, bass players, keyboards, and vocals quickly steal your headroom. The test is to run the master volume all the way up. Can you still get a clean sound with the rest of the band blasting? If not, you have just run out of headroom.
Hope this helps

So, to compensate for the decreased volume (hense less head room, as yu put it), how about a better OT? When I put a better OT in my PRRI, it pushed the head room (volume)back up, and it also increased the ceiling for clean sound - substantially. With the 12AY7 in there as well, the yukky sound that the speaker was making past 5/12 became a thing of the past.

Thanks for the clarification. I did put a 12AY7 in V1, and it worked. Tonally, or sonically, I think that it sounds better to. I'd like to try a 5751 as 1/2 way between. And ditto, I also put a better OT in, a BillM Audio TO20, that him and Dave Allen engineered, and have Heyboer make for them. big improvement. For added measure, I put a CelestionG10 Gold alNico in as well. Beautiful sounds from that speaker.