Mark V with 6CA7 or EL34? Any opinions if you tried them

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bandit2013

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I keep rolling preamp tubes, sounds great for a while but yet too much of too much is too much. Speaking in terms of high frequency response is too intense. I am willing to try the 6CA7 or EL34 route and was wondering if anyone here has ventured in that direction. I do like my 6L6GC tubes but sometimes the upper frequencies are just over the top. I have done everything from different power tubes, different preamp tubes, different speakers, different guitars, pickups, you name it except stuff pillows in front of the amp ( I may actually try this). I could wear ear plugs but that defeats the purpose.

I do know that EL34 have more roll off on the upper frequency range, but lower bass response as well, some newer versions of the EL34 have a bit more low end than others which would include the substitution tubes like 6CA7.

Any thoughts or experience with the alternate power tubes to 6L6?
 
I tried EL34's in my Mark IV in the past and didn't care for them. I use a TC Electronics G Major 2 in my loop for delays and such and what I've been doing is using the parametric EQ as a low pass filter to accomplish this. Just adjust the frequency until you find the spot that works for you and dial it down. I think mine sits around the 8K mark and I run at about -5db. I really like the sounds I'm getting. I take this same approach on my Triaxis as well.

Anyway, I know this doesn't solve the problem via tube swapping, but it's how I ended up dealing with it.
 
I use a version of the EL34 from JJ, the E34L. I like the EL34 sound a lot, but when I switched, I didn't hear as big a difference with the Mark 5 as I had with other amps.

I don't think you will get much high frequency attenuation by switching power tubes.

I play guitars with low output, bright-sounding pickups and I play in a very reflective room. Naturally, my EQ has to compensate, but I do get there. I had to abandon using other people's setting early on. They just didn't work for me.
 
I appreciate the response, thank you.

Some days the amp sounds amazing, and some times it just ice picks my ear drums. All this being said, tone, gain and EQ set the same. I think it boils down to the Power tubs changing character as they age. The low frequency response is still there as it was when the tubes were new. It is far worse with the power switch set to full power and not so bad with variac power setting. Power tubes are SED =C= with approximately 540 hours of use. I have already burned through a set of 7581 in the mark V in a short time, put them in the Mark IV and they sounded like new. It is more than obvious that the Mark IV has a different bias on the A/B circuit than found on the Mark V. I may consider adding a bias mod to the V, running the tubes too cold just limits the tube's full potential. I guess I could check to see what the total ampere reading is on the standby switch before I do anything. All I need are small alligator leads for my meter so I can get my hands out of the circuit when I flip the switch.

I think I may just get a matched quad of the JJ6CA7 just to hear the difference if any.

I am planning on getting another amp that uses EL34 as standard with the 6L6 as optional through bias switch. It is not a Mesa and I am not expecting it to be (Carvin V3). I just want to broaden my arsenal of tone. I am not one that is convinced that one amp will do it all, unless you get into the modeling type, but I am not one in favor of Digital amps since they lack that natural temper of the tubes. Also the digitizing introduces digital artifacts into the tone.
 
I have to consider the speakers once again. The EVM12L has a frequency range from 80hz up to 7kHz. Perhaps a different speaker with a different response range would cut down the upper register to aid in rolling off the ice pick effect.
 
Got a quad of EH EL34 in the MkV. I really prefer them over 6L6GC, the amp is really more tight and bass could be set to a higher level without bluring everything.
 
I never had issue with the bass. I usually drive it up to get all I can from the EV.
I found an easy trick, move the amp to different room that did not have a large brick wall (fireplace). Now both V and IV sound great without ice pick in my ear.

Any change in tonal character with EL34? Looks like EL34 will be the next option. Maybe Kt77?
 
Found them more focussed. Sound has a nasal touch with less sparkly highs. For sure you'll loose a bit "whoooomp", at first it seems a bit tiny. If you play in a band the guitar find it's place more easily IMO, no more battle with the bassist (yeah right, the 7" guy who look like a bear)
 
The band days are long gone I am afraid... Perhaps some day that may happen again.

I am looking for more tone, different than what I can get with 6L6. Actually I love the wing = C= combined with the EVM speakers. Recently I have been experimenting with a Fane speaker. That thing is sweet and can deliver wicked tones. The EV by itself in an open cab seemed a bit loose on the low end but got tight and punchy in a sealed cab along with 3 others. Fane on the other hand is tight and punchy in an open combo. I am sure I will get more bass response if I put it in a sealed cab similar to the EV. I would say Fane is more comparable to V30 without the nasal tone and no beaming of high frequencies. Actually it is more balanced than the EV. I am considering the RA100 head with a custom cabinet. I love the Mark V with all it offers. Even the Mark IV is awesome through a 412 cab. What I like about the RA100 is that it is not voiced to be a Mark Series clone.

I will have to get a quad of EL34 or 6CA7 just to try it out. If I can get that classic Brit tone with a tube change I can rule out the RA100 (are you kidding me? having another amp would be a good thing right? )
 
I currently have EL-34s in my Mark V. The harsh highs on the V with the stock 6L6s were part of the reason, and since my other Mesas have 6L6s in them, it's good to have one with EL-34s too.

Aside from adding meaty midrange grind and crunch to your sound, one of the big benefits is indeed that they make highs a bit more tolerable, less "icepick-in-your-ear". I could never use the bright switch (on channel 3) for band playing when I had 6L6s in my V, or the cold, piercing highs would have made my ears bleed!

I wouldn't say you necessarily lose that much lows if you use tubes like SED =C= EL-34s - the lows may be a little less prominent because they are masked by the strong midrange punch, but you can still get them. You may need to turn up the bass pot on your V to achieve that. And with EL-34s, you actually can do that - without getting the mush and flub your amp is prone to give you if you turn the bass pot past 9 o'clock with 6L6s.

Channel by channel, this is how I feel SED EL-34s compare to the stock Mesa 6L6s:

Channel 1: While the smoother, prettier, shimmering highs on the EL-34s are certainly an improvement over the cold, thin, tinkling 6L6 highs, the clean sounds definitely lose some body and bloom. To compensate, you have to scoop your sound slightly and especially turn up the bass pot. But that will only get you so far - this channel simply works better with the 6L6s.
If you mainly stay on channel 1, keep the 6L6s, and use your EQ to tame the piercing highs. Simple as that.

Channel 2: If you haven't heard this on EL-34s, you haven't heard what your channel 2 is capable of! Period.
No, EL-34s will not turn your Mark V into a Marshall...but they will give your Edge and Crunch modes a distinctly British accent. Those two modes make a lot more sense that way. Add an overdrive to an EL34-powered Edge or Crunch mode, and you've got instant late 1970s/80s heavy rock sound!
As for the Mark I mode...wow. Just wow. With EL-34s, it's unlike any other sound I've ever heard from any Mesa amp. It's like an ultra-hotrodded Marshall. Except that it doesn't sound like a Marshall at all. No, it sounds more like what a Marshall wants to sound like when it grows up. And you can even use the Thick mode and turn up the bass knob in your rhythm playing and sound even bigger (not flubby and tubby like with 6L6s).
With EL-34s, the Mark I mode is easily my favorite distorted sound on the whole amp - and yes, that's counting the channel 3 modes. The Mark I mode is so much bigger and badder. With EL-34s.

Channel 3: This is mostly a matter of taste. Some people will prefer EL-34s here, some will prefer 6L6s. Obviously the EL-34s will give you more midrange grind and crunch, while 6L6s will make your channel 3 modes sound more massive and more modern. Roughly, if your ideal metal sound is from the 1980s or early 1990s, you will probably like the EL-34s better on channel 3. If your ideal metal sounds are from the Rectifier era, you will probably like the 6L6s better here. I went with EL-34s but that's at least partly because I have a couple other, 6L6-loaded Mesas in my arsenal.
Also, with EL-34s, the lack of piercing ice-pick highs is a big advantage on channel 3 - I can actually use the Bright switch now.
 
LesPaul70,

Thank you for your description of the 3 channels with the EL43's. You have described the tones I am after.
I was considering getting another amp geared towards classic rock/vintage cleans + a little grit to add. The RA100 was beginning to appear to be the answer to that quest along with a custom 412 stuffed with Fane Medusas. I may still get it but would like to experiment with the V and other tube options. I do like the wing = C= 6L6 tubes, but the high end is a bit over the top even with an EV cabinet. Attempts to reduce the highs leaves the rest of the tone darker than I desire.

If it turns out that EL34s are the way to go, the Wing =C= will find a happy home in the Mark IV. That amp is perfect with the SED's.

I may go the 6CA7 rout, and or EL34 EH.

I would agree, the bright switch in CH3 is getting more use than expected (on/off/on/off... like a child playing with a light switch or the never ending eye exam "better or worse, better or worse". ) Presence control dialed out in most cases.
 
Dove up to Raleigh this morning. I had two objectives, EL34 and a 1x12 cab. Spotted a used Electro Dyne combo at Sam Ash so I had to play it. It was set up with 6L6GC's. I know it should sound similar to the RA100 so why not try it out. May end up taking it home.... Something about the combo's, they just do not impress me, but I did get to thinking I could stuff the Fane into it and make it sound really good. That was not my goal today. Found a match quad of EL34EH , they only had one set of 6CA7 in the PM brand. 80 bucks for the EL34's (NC tax is a bit steep). I could have waited and just ordered them online. (wait, are you serious, me wait?...ha...). All I can say is quite a different tone out of the Mark V. Best to experience on your own since recordings may not reveal the actual sounds and such. I played for two hours which was enough time to get the tubes to warm up. I went though every single mode possible that the amp could deliver. My starting point was with all stock mesa tubes. I put them in early this morning and gave the SED 6L6 a workout. That was the deciding point to make the trip up to Raleigh. I like the SED's they are a great tube but 6L6 in general can get bright. I think the Mark V is toned a bit brighter than the Mark IV, I never had the ice pick issue with that amp through the single speaker or through the 412 (after swapping out the V30's). The SED's are now in the Mark IV (makes for a great wicked tone).

channel 1: clean, fat = not bad, actually seeded almost as bright as the 6L6. Tweed mode = Awesome! I did not like this mode very much with the 6L6. Now it sounds refined, Vintage tone that I was looking for but could not get with 6L6.

channel 2: Edge and Crunch are much better. I had the same opinion on the Edge as I did on the Tweed. Now it actually sound s good. Crunch just has more of a vintage tone too. I lost that 3D swirl I got with the SED but it still sounds good, actually I thing a lot better. Disappointed with Mark I. I will have to mess around with the tone controls to dial in something that may improve my first impressions.

channel 3 : Wow, what happened to the ice pick? I had no idea that the presence control would do anything in extreme mode. It made no difference with 6L6, now it actually does something. Mark IV and Mark II both sound better. I really like the triode mode, more distinguished than before. Pentode mode is still great.

Sooner or later I will try 6CA7's but for now I am digging the EL34EH tubes. I think I satisfied the RA100 need. This Mark V has it all! (except for tail function on the effects loop).
 
Glad to hear you liked your EL-34s!

bandit2013 said:
Disappointed with Mark I. I will have to mess around with the tone controls to dial in something that may improve my first impressions.

My fault, probably. Because of my liberal praise for the MkI mode with (SED) EL34s, your expectations were too high. :lol:

Yeah, I guess it might not work for everybody. As for where I'm coming from, I'm currently playing 1970s (hard) rock style stuff, although with slightly more gain and slightly more modern sound. The Mark I mode (w/ EL-34s) gets me in the ballpark...and beyond. It's like the dream sound for that kind of music, on steroids. Our tastes might not entirely match.

Next time I have a band practice (very late this month, presumably), I will try to remember to write down my MkI mode settings and post them. Maybe they will be of some use. The settings I have currently dialed in aren't of much use - the MkI mode needs more volume to do it justice.
 
The mark 1 mode did not sound terrible. I am still using the typical tone, gain, presence, etc... settings that I have used with the 6L6. I did get around to changing the preamp tubes and now the amps sounds even better.
V1 = Tung Sol
V2= Ruby high gain
V3 = JJ high gain
V4 - V6 = Mesa stockers
V7 = Sovtek LPS. (I only have one of these, :cry: had to swap it out of the Mark IV)

Above tubes are what is left over from Doug's tone kit. I may try a different tube in V2 to see if I can reshape the tone of the Mark 1 mode. Right now I love what I am hearing. Time to focus more on guitar playing than trying to get a sound I like from the Mark V.

My taste in music has changed over time, now I am beginning to get into the 70's stuff. So the change from 6L6 to EL34 was the step in the right direction. Nothing was lost in the clean channel, still bright with bell tone qualities similar to 6L6 but it is not brittle in the tweed mode like it was. That is a huge +. Moving over to the other side of the Atlantic (EL34) has opened up the Pandora's Box of the Mark V, yes it's in there. I am discovering new tones that I could not get from the 6L6. Now I have the best of both worlds at my disposal, Mark V with EL34 and Mark IV with 6L6 wing = C=. Have to run both amps at the same time just to hear the difference.
 
I used the EL34's for almost a week now. They sound good but always felt like something was missing. There may have been more definition in all channels and different modes but that power tube saturation was harder to get at the typical volume levels I normally use. Perhaps the tubes I got were a bit on the cold side or late distortion. I put the SED 6L6GC back into the V and could not be happier with them. I did try the EL34 in the outer most sockets on the Mark IV. That too was not well received. First impressions of the EL34 were good, but that did not last long, and once I returned the bias back to 6L6 and stuffed the SED's back into their respective sockets I impressed all over again with that familiar tone that I was longing for. With the right tubes, the Mark V soars above the rest. I can tone down the abundant highs with the EQ.

Also in Variac mode, the EL34 sounded very thin and became brittle in tone. 6L6 tubes provides that spongy tone with reduced power setting. I may try the EL34's again some other time say when the SED's need replacement. Perhaps a KT77 or 6CA7 would have been a better choice. When ever I get around to ownership of an RA100 the EL34 experiments may continue, but for now I will stick with the 6L6 in the Mark V.
 
I can relate to both tubes now that I have them. EH EL34 are not all that bad. They do have some good character to them but just not what I was looking for. I am now using a pair of the EH EL34 as an integrated quad in my Mark IV along with TS7581. That sounds almost as good as the JJ6CA7 in the Mark V. The integrated quad of EL34 and 7581 provides more definition to the Mark IV lead channel. At least I will make use of the EL34 tubes.

JJ6CA7 in the Mark V, I must have some really good tubes, since they sound awesome. I have been using all voice modes of all three channels (tweed and edge modes were intolerable with 6L6GC tubes, now they sound great!). I did like the SED wing C 6L6GC but they were a bit bright. TAD 6L6GC-STR are great tube as well (not part of this topic).

JJ6CA7 brings out more vintage tone in CH1 and CH2 all depends on how you set the gain. Pushing the gain on CH1 clean or fat will definitely bring out that old Fender soft clip. On Tweed, it almost rivals the Crunch voicing of CH2. As for CH3, you will get a bit more compression without ice pick highs. You can still get brightness if you dial it in.

For preamp tubes, I am running the stock Mesa 12AX7A tubes. They were the most quiet with no input signal. I was getting power supply hum with Tung Sol and EH tubes. The Mullard reissue tubes were okay, they sounded good up to a point then began to transfer tube rattle noises. At first I thought it was coming from the 6CA7, nope, did the tap test on all the tubes and fount the Mullards to be the culprit. The short plate mesa (JJ or Ruby?) tubes performed the best with the JJ6CA7. I did find them to be a bit harsh with 6L6GC (SED wing c, TS 7581, Mesa STR440, Svetlana copy). The TS and EH 12ax7 helped to reduce the brittle ice pick tones but not able to quench it since the power tubes were the primary cause.

JJ6CA7 (as well as TAD6L6GC-STR) provide that harmonic complexity of the SED =C=, sound very similar in tone without being brittle on the top end. JJ6CA7 are my top list tube, TAD6L6GC-STR falls to a close second.
 
One last note since I mentioned the Mark IV. Various power tubes in the Mark IV combo sound the same. It is very hard to distinguish tone differences of the combo amp through the single speaker between 6L6GC (SED=C=, Svetlana copy (new sensor marketed Reflektor company in Saratov Russia. I call them Svetlana copy since the SED is the original Svetlana tube), Tung Sol 7581, and the Mesa STR440. However, it is completely a different tone when pushing a 412 cab. The SED =C= tubes were the best and the Tung Sol 7581 came in second.

The Mark V is more refined in tonal character than the Mark IV. I am sure things would be different if I only had the combo version of the V and no other cabinets to channel the amp through. Tone response may be similar with different tubes. So far I have tried Tung Sol 7581, (obviously Mesa 6L6GC str 440) Svetlana copies (almost identical to TS7581) Groove tubes NOS relabeled SED =C= (GT6L6R-2 stock from early 90's, may be Original Svetlana before they changed name to SED), TAD6L6GC-STR, and retired Mesa 6L6GC-STR420 (Chinese coke bottle tubes similar to SED but inverted internals with getter cups on pin side), JJ6CA7 and EH EL34. The best sounding tube to me is the JJ6CA7. This tube has all of the character of the TAD and SED 6L6GC, a slight hint of the Mesa STR420, some of the mid range of the EL34 when pushed, runs a bit on the hot side like the EL34. If you want a more vintage tone for your Mark V, jj6CA7 is where it is at. If you want that chuga bass for that metal grunge you can get that too. I have not tried the EH6CA7, perhaps they offer similar character. I will stick with the JJ6CA7 a primary resource for the Mark V. Not quite sure how long they will last though. If they keep up with the SED =C= I will be very happy. So far my ears are happy and so is my bank account since they cost far less. Perhaps I should say the tubes are terrible so the price stays low. I will consider stocking up on the jj6Ca7. I may give the EH6CA7 a try just to hear the difference.
 
Bump to old thread!
Sorry, didn't want to start a new thread since this topic had been discussed and thought it could be helpful.

I recently played around with tubes in my Mark V and the JJ 6CA7 power tubes made a nice difference. Thicker mids, tighter palm mutes overall. Highs are warmer and smoother. Leads seems just as fat.

Next I want to try JJECC83s preamp tubes.
 
Been using 34’s for 10 years. Loved what they did for the EQ on dirty tones. But I also use greenbacks which are another awesome match for the MK V. But I’m very much a classic rock/metal player. I don’t care for modern metal tones.
 
I agree with skoora. It’s the music you play that guides you. I’ll bet that everyone has a genre bias. That genre bias will cause you to favor one tube, and its tonal characteristics, over another. I prefer the el34’s in the mark v. I like a tight bass but NO ICEPICK! That desire is driven by my bias to older rock/metal. Therefore: the el34 :)
 
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