Mark IIC++ Hetfield mod

To me i think your missing the point of the gain. Its not the amount of gain that you experience in the + to ++ but its structure of it. Heck my V mini has more gain in mark IV mod than my ++, But the + and ++ have that mellow sag to the gain that is "one of a kind." +'s have it, ++'s have a bit more.

Thanks for this clarification.

Could it be possible to hear what a IIC++ sounds like ? Could someone post a guitar part in normal IIC+ sound and the same thing in C++ mod. I assume it is easy to switch between normal and ++ mod of course.


Thanks.

There are only a hand full of C+ to C++'s that can do just that on the fly.. If you send a C+ to mike now a days to be ++'ed it will most likely only be ++ now..

decker said:

One (last) question : does the Mark IIC++ have more or less gain than the Mark IV ?

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The Mark IIC++ still has less gain than my Blue Stripe and the Mark IV. Like kippiejr said it is just more of what the IIC+ does well. Mike B. told me before I got the mod done, If you like what the C+ does but want just a little more out of it, that is what the ++ mod is for.

Could it be possible to hear what a IIC++ sounds like ? Could someone post a guitar part in normal IIC+ sound and the same thing in C++ mod. I assume it is easy to switch between normal and ++ mod of course.

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jemwiz00 and I will do a short comparison video hopefully this Sunday of a Mark IIC+ SRG and a Mark IIC++ DG. I have the tubes that came with the C++ still in it. The C+ tubes are really nice so this will be a good comparison IMO. Plus, we have matching cabinets! I have a feeling I can nail the SRG tone exact, then the C++ goes from there to 11 or more, you'll see. It's gonna be fun!!

Simul IIC++ VS. Coliseum C+

I've been back home as of late with time on my hands to compare my two IIC+'s.

The Coliseum has an incredible amount of tightness and punch to it when playing fast rhythms, but lacks some of the warmth of the Simul. The Simul's warmth is better for leads, but lacks the tightness of the Coliseum. It's a very noticeable difference. I honestly can't decide on which I like more. I'm trying to see if I can get the Simul to tighten up, but can't seem to get it there. Mind you, this is even with the 105 transformer. The Coliseum transformer is massive compared to the 105, which is what makes me believe that's where the difference lies.

After all this though, I can't help but feel as though Hetfield's long head Crunch Berries is most likely a Coliseum as well...? It is just so tight, and it sounds tight like the albums. What are your thoughts? Has anyone ever seen the back of CrunchBerries? It could very well be a Simul Coliseum.

Elpelotero said:

After all this though, I can't help but feel as though Hetfield's long head Crunch Berries is most likely a Coliseum as well...? It is just so tight, and it sounds tight like the albums. What are your thoughts? Has anyone ever seen the back of CrunchBerries? It could very well be a Simul Coliseum.

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I would say you're half right: His head probably isn't a coliseum, but he ran it into other power amps, and most notably they used the Mesa Strategy 400 power amps during the Justice and Black Album days which is probably a lot closet to the Coliseum power section than a normal SimulClass.

Somewhat related, and I don't think it's come up yet, has anyone looked inside a C++ to see what actually gets changed? What the schematic differences are? What might need to be done to do the mod yourself?

Here you go, guts - http://www.flickr.com/photos/100168049@N04/27251217473/in/dateposted-public/

kippiejr said:

To me i think your missing the point of the gain. Its not the amount of gain that you experience in the + to ++ but its structure of it. Heck my V mini has more gain in mark IV mod than my ++, But the + and ++ have that mellow sag to the gain that is "one of a kind." +'s have it, ++'s have a bit more.

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Maybe your amps were different, but the two 2C++ heads I own have a ton of gain. More than my stock Mark III (not my Coli Mark III++) and more than the Mark V:25 and JP2C. The ++ mod also tightened up the amp a lot as well. I much prefer the ++ mod of a stock 2C+.

Any way I look at it, neither amp leaves me craving for more gain! My C++ and JP2C are fairly equal in gain and feel. My particular Mark llC++ is remarkably similar in sound to my JP2C. Way, way, way more closer in sound and feel than any Mark III is, which, IMO is the closest tone to a C+. I would say Mark 3's have more gain than Mark ll's or the JP2C, but it's close, it depends on which tubes you use. If you turn the gain all the way up and it's not enough, your tubes are shot!

I'm curious...what do you all mean when you say "gain"? It means different things to different people. Some guitarists think of it as the amount of compression/sustain. Other guitarists think of it as how quickly you can get feedback. Yet other guitarists think of it as the amount of distortion / fuzz. These are all different things.

If you define what you mean by "gain" it might clear up whether we're talking apples-to-apples or apples-to-oranges.

Chip

For me, gain is distortion. Useable or not. Steve Vai, Joe Satriani are examples of known players who use a lot of gain in their tone whereas Hendrix used a lot of over-drive and volume that can only be achieved at a loud enough volume to get the speakers interacting with the guitar.

I have a confirmed by Mesa Boogie just the other week a factory built Mark IIC+ with a ++ mod done by Mike B in 2016. It has a switchable ++ mode, done by either pulling the mid pot or using a footswitch connected to the Slave Jack on the back. I have taking a few photos of the internals so you can see the relay fitted for this purpose. I have many more photos of the internals if anyone wants to see them. Sorry for all the links I don't know how to attach photos any other way. When I spoke to Mesa they confirmed that there is so much misinformation on this specific website about these amps and mods, maybe Mike B is just getting forgetful. I was also told there is nothing written down, no schematic no paper work on this mod at Mesa so when Mike goes (retires) so does the ++ mod.



https://drive.google.com/open?id=1j1m4hpytyqa_UGxJJQoHn_ZOaBsGVpx3

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Kx7qbTGCsItGQMCxmORCgsHwdI6_YZCh

https://drive.google.com/open?id=17OPD8Xo732u84YDCJKFNiGh4pEl89GWo

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-OP9yTZ_WKghpP4pRi0s2Rd5ENwftozq

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-WxdJeoNcldLz4ql6n15lVm8NWyIRgJj

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BejoZvOoK6CcBJM-EaX7Xjz-zRGk74D8

Much of this is true - there is SO much misinformation about the update and mods. Also, correct - it is all in Mike B's head. However, when he "retires" from Mesa, it doesn't mean he won't be doing the work!

True, but he may do a lot less of them and it and may cost a lot more, he might not have access to parts he once had etc. Just my thoughts. I'm surprised he's not fed up of it already. He's probably wishing that Mesa would just re issuse these amps all at ++ level so people can just buy new ones instead of modding old ones. Although he maybe was hoping that the JP2 was going to be that, as far as I know its not IIC++ level? Is it?

The JP2C can get very hairy when the shred mode in engaged, but it still falls short of the gain that a C++ has. It's a "Mark II Super C+" according to the badge inside the head shell.

True, but he may do a lot less of them and it and may cost a lot more, he might not have access to parts he once had etc. Just my thoughts. I'm surprised he's not fed up of it already. He's probably wishing that Mesa would just re issuse these amps all at ++ level so people can just buy new ones instead of modding old ones. Although he maybe was hoping that the JP2 was going to be that, as far as I know its not IIC++ level? Is it?

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I'm sure you have a far better insight to Mike B's wishes than Boogie over this... The III R2 channel is basically a switchable ++. Check out the relay on your +/++ and wiring off the power board to power the relay. It's basically the same. I'll draw up a schematic though for you soon though.

Regarding the reissue... a factory IIC+ or ++ is not some simple PCB design to reissue. It's a IIC board (even the 'factory' RP11A/SP11A IIC+s) with a load of mods and wires and extra stuff done (the +) during the production phase. High level of work and craftsmanship involved and very hard to do on a high production output level. There's a reason the III with the single PCB came into existence which is basically a switchable IIC+/++ with a few differences allowing a high level production output due to being just one piece and no wires/mods.

Much of this is true - there is SO much misinformation about the update and mods. Also, correct - it is all in Mike B's head. However, when he "retires" from Mesa, it doesn't mean he won't be doing the work!

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I hope you guys (or more specifically Mike B) don't mind me documenting the IIC, IIC+ and ++ as much as I can on here exactly because of this misinformation? My fear is taking work away, but at the end of the day if people realise the amount of work and skill involved to do it 99% of them will just pay the money to have it done! It's such good value for money and that's one of the best things about Boogie is the customer service and their extremely reasonable prices for any servicing or factory work! Why would you send it anywhere else?! (international shipping prices being the only barrier). My understanding is that you pay Mike B separately anyway for any + mod work done at the moment. So if he chooses to continue doing this after he officially 'retires' what's the difference?

Jst reading through the older posts on this topic and am in disbelief at the stupidity of people again based on misinformation. My understanding (and Authorized Boogie might be able to let you know prices) that the following mods are available from Mike B:

IIC+ (upgrade from a IIC)
IIC ++ (hardwired in. Cannot be turned off)
IIC+/++ (switchable via a relay like on the III but for an additional cost). As mentioned earlier in this thread a few left the factory like this, others have been modified subsequently and this switchable +/++ basically became the R2 channel on the III, although with a few differences.

does anyone know if the mid-gain switch in the back of the mark IV tries to emulate the c++ extra gain? thanks