3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

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dlabrecque
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by dlabrecque » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:42 pm

If your footswitch effects loop in/out no longer works, you could try doing it with your effects unit. It would likely mean some customized patch programming where you turn off relevant effects with a foot tap on your effects unit instead. Or, more simply, you could have some patches that use effects and some that don't.
Dave Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts

Dual Rectifier Roadster
4x12 Rectifier Slant Front
1x12 Compact Open Back

Boss MS-3 and various pedals
2002 Gibson SG
2006 Fender MIM Stratocaster
2006 Fender MIM Telecaster
2004 Taylor 510CE

cscotto
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by cscotto » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Hello Everyone,

I just bought a 3 channel Triple Rectifier, and I want to mod the loop to serial. I read through the whole thing, and I have to say I agree with 94Tremoverb. I would not do the other mod. In fact, I just did for lack of a better term the "Mix Pot Serial Mod" tonight, and it works perfectly. I got the mod from the Boogie Board a few years ago, but I cannot seem to find the original post. I have pictures and a schematic that I will add. Here are the details:

1) All functions remain intact: solo switch and FX switch (however, not as you would expect).
2) The Send knob still controls the volume into the effects unit.
3) The Mix knob does nothing.
4) If you remove the cable when the loop is engaged, there is no sound. No bleed through of any signal bypassing the loop.

I only noticed one strange bit of behavior. When you switch the loop out with the footswitch, the volume drops as if some of the signal is going to ground, which makes it seems like the FX switch is not working. In order to hear the normal volume, you have to have the loop engaged. This may be a problem with my particular Triple since my Tremoverb which has the same mod does not behave this way.
On the Tremoverb, with the loop selector switch set to external switch, the F/X switch simply switches the effects in or out. The loop active master is active with both the effects switch on or off.

Here is the "Mix Pot Mod:"

Image
Image
Image
Roadster Head
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RDW1988
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by RDW1988 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:38 am

Hey guys,

I'm new here, and I'm the owner of a 3ch Dual Rectifier.
The effects loop is a parallel one, and I'd like to mod it to a serial.

I opened up my rectifier, but I'm not sure which wires I need to cut.
Do I need to cut all three of them, or just one?
Here's a pic I took.

Image

cscotto
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by cscotto » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:41 pm

bortx wrote:hi, I took my 3 channel dual to a technician after failing to mod it myself (it would still have some unprocessed signal going through the loop), he did it (tone was better after his mod) and still I had some residual signal passing through it. I told him, he did some tests and told me that the residual signal was due to some "grounding return" (whatever that means, providing i translated it correctly hehe) and the whole grounding scheme had to be rearranged...

Basically the residual signal I was hearing was very low (and wouldn't get lower when I crank the amp's volume) but still sucked tone if I tried to delay the 100% of the signal a few miliseconds as I am trying to do.

If I put a 1 sec. delay in the loop 100% wet, I will hear the guitar as I play it very quiet and a second later I will hear the delayed signal much louder. I'm using the TC Gforce and I'm sure the returned signal is 100% wet

anyone's got any information about this? any idea? I wrote mesa boogie but had no reply yet
I did the FX Mix Pot Mod to my 3 channel Triple. I get some residual signal when pull the cable from the FX unit out of the return to the amp. I started another thread to try and track down the source of this "bleed." I saw the reply from Boogie on the V4 tube. I am skeptical.
I tried your 1 second delay, and the results were interesting. First, I have a G major 2. I set the kill dry to off, so all the signal goes through the effects processing. Next I chose a dynamic delay and set it to 100% wet and 1 sec. I plucked a note. By the way, this was on Channel 3 with high gain settings. At first, all I heard was the delayed note, 1 second after I plucked it. A little closer listening, and I hear the guitar string when I pluck the note as if the guitar was not plugged into an amp. 1 second later, I hear the note coming from the G Major-2. Next, I put my ear next to the speaker, and plucked the note. This time I heard the note coming from the speaker but it is no louder than plucking the string without being plugged into the amp. In fact, it is lower than that because I had to have my ear next to the speaker to hear.
Once, I set the G Major 2 back to its original settings (kill dry off), I do not hear any bleed through or tone suck. I am going to just be satisfied with it for now.
I am still going to try to track down the source of the bleed through, and if I find it I will post it in the other thread.

All the best
Roadster Head
Triple Rectifier 3 channel (Multi-watt)
Mark V
4 Rectifier 4X12 Cabs
RG-16 and Effect Gizmo switching systems
Mastermind, Liquidfoot Pro, Ground Control Pro
Eventide Time and Mod Factors
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cscotto
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by cscotto » Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:47 pm

Hi RDW1988,

I do not know why I cannot quote your post, but I will describe the wire to remove. The three you have circled are correct, but you only remove the wire on the far left facing the picture. In other words, labeling the wires 1, 2, and 3 from left to right facing the picture, you remove wire 1. If you look closely at the pad it is soldered into, you can see a little trace that connects it to the trace above it. That long trace comes from the Send pots middle wire or wiper pad. Make sure put electrical tape on the exposed wire end.
HTH
Roadster Head
Triple Rectifier 3 channel (Multi-watt)
Mark V
4 Rectifier 4X12 Cabs
RG-16 and Effect Gizmo switching systems
Mastermind, Liquidfoot Pro, Ground Control Pro
Eventide Time and Mod Factors
Lots of pedal

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mikey383
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by mikey383 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:47 am

cscotto wrote:
bortx wrote:hi, I took my 3 channel dual to a technician after failing to mod it myself (it would still have some unprocessed signal going through the loop), he did it (tone was better after his mod) and still I had some residual signal passing through it. I told him, he did some tests and told me that the residual signal was due to some "grounding return" (whatever that means, providing i translated it correctly hehe) and the whole grounding scheme had to be rearranged...

Basically the residual signal I was hearing was very low (and wouldn't get lower when I crank the amp's volume) but still sucked tone if I tried to delay the 100% of the signal a few miliseconds as I am trying to do.

If I put a 1 sec. delay in the loop 100% wet, I will hear the guitar as I play it very quiet and a second later I will hear the delayed signal much louder. I'm using the TC Gforce and I'm sure the returned signal is 100% wet

anyone's got any information about this? any idea? I wrote mesa boogie but had no reply yet
I did the FX Mix Pot Mod to my 3 channel Triple. I get some residual signal when pull the cable from the FX unit out of the return to the amp. I started another thread to try and track down the source of this "bleed." I saw the reply from Boogie on the V4 tube. I am skeptical.
I tried your 1 second delay, and the results were interesting. First, I have a G major 2. I set the kill dry to off, so all the signal goes through the effects processing. Next I chose a dynamic delay and set it to 100% wet and 1 sec. I plucked a note. By the way, this was on Channel 3 with high gain settings. At first, all I heard was the delayed note, 1 second after I plucked it. A little closer listening, and I hear the guitar string when I pluck the note as if the guitar was not plugged into an amp. 1 second later, I hear the note coming from the G Major-2. Next, I put my ear next to the speaker, and plucked the note. This time I heard the note coming from the speaker but it is no louder than plucking the string without being plugged into the amp. In fact, it is lower than that because I had to have my ear next to the speaker to hear.
Once, I set the G Major 2 back to its original settings (kill dry off), I do not hear any bleed through or tone suck. I am going to just be satisfied with it for now.
I am still going to try to track down the source of the bleed through, and if I find it I will post it in the other thread.

All the best
There is a design flaw in the Rectos that does not allow the loop to be 100% serial. At best, you'll have about 90/10.

Although according to a few threads I've read, Mesa will not acknowledge this flaw.

I did the serial loop mod on my 2 channel Dual, and still had dry signal coming though the amp.
Guitars:Schecter C-1 Classic, Ibanez RG7321, Epiphone LP Supreme
Amps:70's Earth head
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Past amps '95 Dual Recto, '96 Dual Recto, Stiletto Trident, 3 ch. Triple Rec

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glassjaw7
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by glassjaw7 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:22 am

mikey383 wrote:
cscotto wrote:
bortx wrote:hi, I took my 3 channel dual to a technician after failing to mod it myself (it would still have some unprocessed signal going through the loop), he did it (tone was better after his mod) and still I had some residual signal passing through it. I told him, he did some tests and told me that the residual signal was due to some "grounding return" (whatever that means, providing i translated it correctly hehe) and the whole grounding scheme had to be rearranged...

Basically the residual signal I was hearing was very low (and wouldn't get lower when I crank the amp's volume) but still sucked tone if I tried to delay the 100% of the signal a few miliseconds as I am trying to do.

If I put a 1 sec. delay in the loop 100% wet, I will hear the guitar as I play it very quiet and a second later I will hear the delayed signal much louder. I'm using the TC Gforce and I'm sure the returned signal is 100% wet

anyone's got any information about this? any idea? I wrote mesa boogie but had no reply yet
I did the FX Mix Pot Mod to my 3 channel Triple. I get some residual signal when pull the cable from the FX unit out of the return to the amp. I started another thread to try and track down the source of this "bleed." I saw the reply from Boogie on the V4 tube. I am skeptical.
I tried your 1 second delay, and the results were interesting. First, I have a G major 2. I set the kill dry to off, so all the signal goes through the effects processing. Next I chose a dynamic delay and set it to 100% wet and 1 sec. I plucked a note. By the way, this was on Channel 3 with high gain settings. At first, all I heard was the delayed note, 1 second after I plucked it. A little closer listening, and I hear the guitar string when I pluck the note as if the guitar was not plugged into an amp. 1 second later, I hear the note coming from the G Major-2. Next, I put my ear next to the speaker, and plucked the note. This time I heard the note coming from the speaker but it is no louder than plucking the string without being plugged into the amp. In fact, it is lower than that because I had to have my ear next to the speaker to hear.
Once, I set the G Major 2 back to its original settings (kill dry off), I do not hear any bleed through or tone suck. I am going to just be satisfied with it for now.
I am still going to try to track down the source of the bleed through, and if I find it I will post it in the other thread.

All the best
There is a design flaw in the Rectos that does not allow the loop to be 100% serial. At best, you'll have about 90/10.

Although according to a few threads I've read, Mesa will not acknowledge this flaw.

I did the serial loop mod on my 2 channel Dual, and still had dry signal coming though the amp.
That really sucks. My amp would be 100% perfect for my needs if the loop wasn't designed this way. :( I think I'm to the point where I'm going to buy a power amp and slave out for delay and verb.
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DS-1
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by DS-1 » Sun Feb 20, 2011 8:55 am

I have a Triple Rectifier that always sounded bad with loop enabled, even with only a patchcord from send to return, so with no effect.

The problem is: with the loop on (with or without effects in the loop, it doesn't matter), lowering the Output level and going up with the Master on every channel, it adds some fuzzy distortion to the sound.

Example: with the loop off, on the green channel I have a really nice clean sound having master and gain set at 12 o' clock. If I use the same setting, enabling the loop, I have a really fuzzy clean channel, no matter how I set the Output master.

I did the parallel/serial mod, just unsoldering the dry end of the Mix pot, but I didn't fix the problem.

Then, I tried to do a more focused serial mod, removing the 2 J175 from send/return circuit, as reported on the first page of this thread.

Again, I still have the fuzzy sound problem. I even tried to swap some preamp tubes in the s/r position. No way to fix it.

Can you please tell me if this is "normal" for the Rectifier users?

dlabrecque
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by dlabrecque » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:41 pm

DS-1 wrote:Can you please tell me if this is "normal" for the Rectifier users?
I'd say no. I don't have fuzzy sound problem. The serial loop mod is alleged to be able to fix a "sound suck" issue that's about phase cancellation from a digitally processed (slightly delayed due to processing latency) signal in the FX loop mixing with some of the original dry signal.

Realize that only one channel is clean on a Recto. The other(s) is/are meant to be fuzzy, dirty, distorted.
Dave Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts

Dual Rectifier Roadster
4x12 Rectifier Slant Front
1x12 Compact Open Back

Boss MS-3 and various pedals
2002 Gibson SG
2006 Fender MIM Stratocaster
2006 Fender MIM Telecaster
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DS-1
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by DS-1 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:05 am

dlabrecque wrote:
DS-1 wrote:Realize that only one channel is clean on a Recto. The other(s) is/are meant to be fuzzy, dirty, distorted.
I know this. I'm able to ear the real Recto sound, with the loop off.

Unfortunately, I have this problem and I really don't know how to fix it.

I only removed the 2 s/r J175, not the J175m, but I suppose it is used for the mute channel switching, so I don't have to remove it, isn't it?

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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by dlabrecque » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:08 pm

DS-1 wrote:
dlabrecque wrote:
DS-1 wrote:Realize that only one channel is clean on a Recto. The other(s) is/are meant to be fuzzy, dirty, distorted.
I know this. I'm able to ear the real Recto sound, with the loop off.

Unfortunately, I have this problem and I really don't know how to fix it.

I only removed the 2 s/r J175, not the J175m, but I suppose it is used for the mute channel switching, so I don't have to remove it, isn't it?
I don't know how the circuitry works, sorry. If you're getting a fuzzy clean channel for no good reason, I'd say there's something wrong with your amp. Mind sounds nice 'n' clean with the FX loop in our out. Your problem doesn't sound like it's related to the serial/parallel issue, BTW.

Why don't you call Mesa tech support and see what they say?
Dave Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts

Dual Rectifier Roadster
4x12 Rectifier Slant Front
1x12 Compact Open Back

Boss MS-3 and various pedals
2002 Gibson SG
2006 Fender MIM Stratocaster
2006 Fender MIM Telecaster
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DS-1
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by DS-1 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:21 pm

Unfortunately here in Italy there isn't a good technical support for Mesa amplifiers.

I've written a mail to the american Mesa Boogie, I hope they can tell me more.

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mastora
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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by mastora » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:42 pm

Try putting the send/return pots at the back of the amp to 12 oclock position.

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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by DS-1 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:50 am

I've tried, but it works in the same way.

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Re: 3 channel Triple Rectifier Loop Mod.(Parallel to Series)

Post by dlabrecque » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:01 pm

Are you certain you're sending a clean tone into the amp? Have you tried it with several different guitars?

Also -- are you sure you're not overdriving the amp's input? All pedals turned off? Passive pickups on the guitar?
Dave Labrecque
Becket, Massachusetts

Dual Rectifier Roadster
4x12 Rectifier Slant Front
1x12 Compact Open Back

Boss MS-3 and various pedals
2002 Gibson SG
2006 Fender MIM Stratocaster
2006 Fender MIM Telecaster
2004 Taylor 510CE

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