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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
I like it by itself actually. Also I do not plan on opening up my 212 cabs for a speaker swap as those are ideal as they are.
Not exactly sure how the EV and OTR will behave in a common cab. I basically jumped on them for Combo or 1x12 cab use.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:21 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
Since I have decided to get another Vertical 212 to use with the JP-2C, I have not abandoned the OTR speaker. It has good qualities to it. Last night I spent most of the evening running the Mark V combo paired with the 1x12 open back wide body cab that I mounted the other OTR speaker. The two speakers add the depth the Mark V is lacking and since the amp is still bright even with the 12AT7 installed (V4 and V6) it sounds great with the OTR. I used to do the same with the EV speakers when I had one loaded in the Mark V but I generally used CH2 crunch most of the time. I like having a satellite speaker so I can move it into different positions in the room to get more spread or separation between the cabs. I did try the Mark V on top of the 1x12 but the cab is a bit narrow in its footprint and seemed unstable on the carpet (may have too much padding) that I did not want to risk leaving it that way in case it would fall over on the dog. On a hardwood floor no problem. That extension cab definitely adds the punch to the mix. The JP-2C on the other hand sounds great but seems a bit dark in tone when using the single 112 cab. Although as an accent with the 212 I gain a bit more fullness in the tonal spectrum.

How would it sound an a sealed 412, damn is that tempting. If the speaker was available in a 16 ohm format I would probably consider a speaker swap in one of the 212 cabs. I believe there would be more of a benefit in the 412 cab than the 212 as those are on the dark side of the spectrum. the 412's (depending on the speaker) seem a bit overly bright when pushing the envelope (V30) or just sounds like something is missing (EV). Perhaps some day I will get to more to pair with the EV in the one OS Recto cab, but that will have to wait.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
However, the 1x12 open back widebody Mesa cab along with the Mark V combo each with the OTR speaker is just kick ass. I got used to the speaker while using the 12AT7 in V4, and on for a short term in V6, now all preamp tubes are 12AX7 and the Mark V never sounded better. This speaker actually kept the Mark V off of the "for sale, used amp" list. I am loving the V more and more every day such that it is getting more use than the JP-2C. For me this was the best mod I have ever done and perhaps removal of C39 was a help. You can really drive these speakers hard and push the bass up a bit more than you could with the V30 or MC90. The single 1x12 cab will work with the JP-2C but the Mark V is a definite yes and would recommend this speaker for specific use in a Mark V combo or extension cab. It will sound a bit dull from the start out of the box but does not take long to loosen things up. The highs will bleed out eventually as well as midrange swell near the end of the break in period. Thanks for the suggestion Jnoel64!

Forget the EV, I may eventually get 4 more and rebuild my OS Recto cab. Will have to hear the Roadster though the OTR first before I decide on it.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:09 am 
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Mark III
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Thank you for taking the plunge, Bandit! I will eventually wind up with at least one of these. I just have to wait until after the first of the year, but it will happen.

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TC-50, Electra Dyne, Mark V, Road King I
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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Mark II

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:46 pm
Posts: 85
bandit2013 wrote:
However, the 1x12 open back widebody Mesa cab along with the Mark V combo each with the OTR speaker is just kick ass. I got used to the speaker while using the 12AT7 in V4, and on for a short term in V6, now all preamp tubes are 12AX7 and the Mark V never sounded better. This speaker actually kept the Mark V off of the "for sale, used amp" list. I am loving the V more and more every day such that it is getting more use than the JP-2C. For me this was the best mod I have ever done and perhaps removal of C39 was a help. You can really drive these speakers hard and push the bass up a bit more than you could with the V30 or MC90. The single 1x12 cab will work with the JP-2C but the Mark V is a definite yes and would recommend this speaker for specific use in a Mark V combo or extension cab. It will sound a bit dull from the start out of the box but does not take long to loosen things up. The highs will bleed out eventually as well as midrange swell near the end of the break in period. Thanks for the suggestion Jnoel64!

Forget the EV, I may eventually get 4 more and rebuild my OS Recto cab. Will have to hear the Roadster though the OTR first before I decide on it.


Dang dude you really love this speaker that much with the V?

If you wouldnt mind I would love to hear what it sounds like now that its broken in.

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Mark V, Mk III blue stripe combo Organic Timbre speaker, JP-2c, Triple Rectifier (reborn multiwatt)
Marshall 1960 full stack, 2 Mesa vertical 2x12, 1 Mesa thiele with EVM 12l black label.
LTD EC-1000x3
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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
It works well with the Mark V as mine is very bright to start with. Even with the 12AT7 in V4 it has been difficult to remedy. Thought the Celestion Red Back or the Crème Alnico 90W as a fix but the OTR just has some balls to it. Sort of similar to the EV but not as bright also with the midrange improvement the OTR fits the Mark V quite well. I bought the other speaker to run with the JP-2C which was not all that bad, a bit dark in character but with the Mark V it sounds great. The way I see it, the Mesa Vertical 212 loaded with V30 is to the JP-2C as the OTR speaker is to the Mark V. Throw in some bright 12AX7 tubes and a 12AT7 into V4 and H.S. this speaker works with the V. Note that it is a dark toned speaker or has more roll off on the higher frequencies which helps the Mark V more than I expected. The amp still sounds a bit thin with the V30 but definitely much thicker with the OTR. the speaker is not as dark as it was out of box, or in the recording that I posted in the Mark amp forum.

I will see what I can do in a week or so when I can find some time. Will probably have to delete something in my account to add another recording. I am planning on using the Mark V in a project along with the JP-2C but have not formulated a plan at the moment. That may take a bit longer as I will have to figure out what to play on the drums and bass to go with it. Was also considering adding the Roadster too.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:37 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
Regarding the OTR Rhapsody speaker: This is one of the better sounding speakers I have used with the Mark V so far. The Celestion Crème Alnico 90W was also amazing but had a deeper character, more of a vintage tone and plenty of top end under restraint. The OTR in comparison is not overly voiced in the Vintage department and does have similar character to the EVM12L speaker from which it was conceived. You can drive it very hard and it delivers and remains complaint at lower volume levels. I am finding it very difficult to flub out like I could with the MC90. I do like that speaker in a separate cab and sounds way better in the 112 open back extension cab than the Mark V combo with the same speaker. Go figure. I can get close to the JP-2C tone with two of the OTR speakers running in parallel on the 4 ohm taps (tone does change on the 4 ohm taps as well as the current). Loudness is comparable to the OS Recto 412 when pushed hard but still retains bottom end without the shrill of ice or thinning out at higher volume levels.

Use with the JP-2C seemed to provide more restraint on the top end than desired as this amp is not extremely bright to start with. However the most ideal cab to use with that amp seems to be the Vertical 212 cab, adding another just makes it more impressive, so much it seems unreal. It depends on position of the speaker, raise it off the floor and the midrange dominates if it is at ear level. Position and perspective of the sound (where you are relative to the speaker's axial center ) will dictate what is the dominant tone you will hear. Same would apply to the V30 mounted in any cab, at center all you get is the upper mids and top end, off axis you get a more full tone. The OTR may not be the best speaker as that does not exist. However it does deliver some good tone and characteristics from the Mark V that I struggle to get with other speakers. To me it is like having a new amp and one that can run with the 100W amps pushing larger cabinets. Also it brings me back to the Mark III combo days.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:11 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
Unfortunately I did not have the time to get any recordings done this weekend as I had too much home work to do than I realized. Perhaps during the week if I am able I will try to see if I can manage something.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
I tried to make a recording of the Mark V and broken in OTR. Not turning out all that great at the moment. Perhaps I am just not into it today. Also I have no plan on what to play, like usual... When I hear myself it is more of an incentive to want to give up than to continue. Perhaps that would be a good thing to do. :cry:

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
I figured I may as well post this..... I did record something but not very good. I may render it and post that.. Not sure the speakers are broken it yet but decided to pull them out of the Mark V combo and the extension cab. They did work the best with the Mark V due to its inherent tone but still had too much vintage vibe to satisfy me. Top end frequency roll off was a bit too much. I think they will blend well with the EVM12L Black Label speaker I have loaded in an OS Recto 412 cab. I tried the blend with two extension cabs and the Mark V and that was much better than using two OTR speakers. When I get to it I will find out soon enough how they will sound in a 412 cab with the EV speaker. Things change once you get speakers into a sealed box vs two open back cabs. I did not notice any response difference between the EV and the OTR like I did with the V30 and the EV so it should work out.

They are very loud speakers and can dish out the air when driven hard, just like the EV. Got to find out and see what happens.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:28 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
Bump:

I did attempt to swap two EV speakers with the two OTRs in my EV loaded 412. I got as far as removing the rear panel and soon discovered it would be more work than desired to remove any of the EV speakers. I used rubber tape to seal them to the baffle and that would require a wide blade chisel to free them. Oh well, better luck next time. What inspired me to want to change was the TC-100 when I ran that cab with it. Then I compared it with the JP-2C and the Roadster and realized it was best to leave the EV speakers as is. Shortly following that discovery (again) I decided to run the Mark V that I restored with its MC90 Speaker as well as the wide body 112 open back cab. Usually when you come back to something you can easily make a better decision than jumping the gun and making a radical change. MC90 speaker is OK but not ideal with my Mark V. I could not get over how nice the OTR speaker sounded on the clean but seemed to loose my interest in the high gain arena. I manages to install one of the OTR speakers I had already mounted in the Mark V. This time I was going to abandon the 12AT7 in V4 and tune the preamp to the speaker, this also required a power tube change from the Mesa 6l6GC str440 to the Preferred series 6L6GC (Shuguang) that are basically the same as the TAD 6L6GC-STR and the Ruby 6L6GCBSTR tube. I had bought them a while back for use in the Mark V but I did not use them for long as I had the MC90 in the amp at the time. Preamp section: V1 and V3: Mullard Long plate 12AX7, V2: stock Mesa, V4 and V5: JJ ECC803s (long plate) V6: stock Mesa, and finally V7: NOS Chinese Beijing square getter tube that had a match triode pair with gain at 110. Now that made a huge difference with the OTR speaker. Since I decided to drop the idea to make the Mark V sound closer to the JP-2C, why not just make the Mark V sound its best? And now it does. Next task is to return the OTR speaker back to the 112 wide body cab. This will provide a bit of flexibility for the Mark V, having just one OTR is great, running two in parallel even better or I could opt to run the OTR in the combo with the EV in the deep 112 cab that I also have. I did not give up on the OTR, just had to rethink how I was going to use them and dial in the Mark V to take advantage of the OTR characteristic. No wonder why I was so excided over this speaker from the start.

When I get back into action again I will attempt to get a recording of this as someone had asked a while ago. This time I think I turned my love/hate relationship with the Mark V into more love, less hate. The 12AT7 mod worked great in V4 but it did not cure the brittleness of CH2 and CH1 (tweed). What helped was the Mullard 12AX7 long plate in V1 and V3 as they provide more balance from bottom to top end with a bit or high frequency roll off. The long plate version of the JJECC83s (stock) actually has similar characteristics but a more controlled bottom end and not as brittle in V4 and V5 as the Mesa 12AX7. The JJ ECC803s is a tube worth having in your preamp tube kit. Actually this may be the first time I noticed how reactive the Mark V can be with volume roll off on the guitar I am getting a similar effect as I get with the JP-2C, it cleans up nicely and does not drop dramatically in volume. It sounds a bit different but I actually like the Mark V now, more than I did a few days ago. Main reason I pulled the OTR speaker, I was getting the Mark V ready to sell. I was done with it. Now as before the OTR saved the day but with a tube job made everything more desirable. I was able to go an hour with the amp and not get tired or fatigued (irritated) to what I was hearing. :P

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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 Post subject: Re: Organic Timbre
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:49 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2920
Location: North Carolina
Had a fix for CH2 of the Mark V, I used a 7025 Chinese tube in V2 which is a brighter than the Mesa but not overpowering to the point I would not be able to stand edge mode. Also got around to installing the OTR in the Mesa wide body extension cab (again). I did try the OTR in the Mark V combo combined with the MC90 in the extension cab and that did not work out so good as the MC90 sounded like it was going to launch the voice coil through the cone. End result of going back to 12AX7 tubes in the Mark V (after C39 removal) has rendered the amp totally useful and I actually enjoy playing it now. Those who love the V30 with the Mark V better off keeping the 12AT7 in V4 and or V6 (which ever choice you made). Of course this is subjective.... what else could it be?

Running the pair of OTRs in parallel was awesome, and it gets better if you pair up the OTR with an EV black label (this one has extended top end but lack the midrange, OTR does not have the extended top end and plenty of midrange, both have similar character at the bottom end of the spectrum). Too bad I was unable to change two of the EV speakers with the two OTR in my OS Recto EV loaded 412 cab. My next project would be to get one of the older vertical 212 cabs with metal grill and total load impedance of 4 ohms or 8 ohms split, open top and ported bottom. OTR up top and EV black label on the bottom would be a kick-a$$ cab ( assuming the speakers in it are not of the EVM 12L black shadow variety).

Why am I bringing this up? My next round of sound tests was with the TC-100. Combined OTR and EV BL was amazing. I think I like that better than the Vertical 212 cab. Too bad they do not make those speakers in a 16 ohm voice coil. At 4 ohm total load it was killer. I have no plans on changing my Vertical 212 cabs as they cost enough as is and sound great. Would rather refurbish a used 212 cab. As for the Mark V, if yours sounds brittle on CH3, the OTR will cut that top end and higher frequencies will be filtered out and the end result is a manageable tone with a hint of vintage character and yet sounds different on clean which provides enough chime and sparkle with tight and bold bottom notes. I am glad I took them back out of the boxes they shipped in and making use of them once again.

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Current amps: TC-100, TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100


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