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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:52 pm 
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Icarusuki wrote:
Just to jump into the fray:

TL;DR version: You have different guitars and their sounds differ. That is normal. If you want to figure out why they sound different, look at the pickups first, not the fret board material.


** Please note that I am only talking about similar or identical guitars with the same model pickups.

Icarusuki wrote:
None of this should be construed to mean that Elvis cannot hear the difference. Maybe he can. Sometimes the hoof beats you hear are Zebras, not horses.... but when Occam's Razor is applied, taking into account all that we know about bias and human perception, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and we don't have that.

~Icarusuki


I don't disagree that pickups can have more of an effect than wood in many or most cases (the exceptions are that some pickups are so similar that switching between them has little effect). It would be ludicrous to claim that they do not.

My point is that it is similarly ludicrous to claim the woods do not affect tone. Seriously, anyone who has played a bunch of the SAME EXACT guitar model must have noticed a difference from guitar to guitar. In my own experience, I have owned guitars that were the same model, with the same pickups, but with different woods (either different body wood or different fingerboard wood or both). I have also read about and spoken with other players and luthiers who have similar experiences. There should be no question that wood makes a difference. If it REALLY did not, then manufacturers would make all guitars from the cheapest wood and call it a day, other than a few boutique guys. I defy anyone to play a Basswood guitar vs a Swamp Ash or Mahogany guitar with the same shape and pickups and find no difference. As an example, I had a basswood guitar that I could not get to sound the same as identical mahogany and alder guitars (I tend to stock up on similar body styles or guitar models). I went through several sets of quite different pickups, but the guitar always sounded spongy. I took it to a luthier who confirmed that the electronics and wiring were fine and that this had been his experience with basswood as well.

As much as Boogie does not design their amps around wood types, neither do they design around pickups. Imagine if you could play only humbuckers through a JP-2C. Or only DiMarzio through the Mark V. I think you may be reading too much into Authorized's comment.

I am familiar with Occam's razor, but I really don't see these as extraordinary claims. I can also point to significant evidence to back it up. If you want real science, I think it would be relatively easy to measure guitars of varying woods with a spectrum analyzer to find the frequency and impulse response, much as they do with speakers. I'm fairly certain that Line 6 must have done this to make the Variax guitar models. The hard part would be getting the collection of instruments together.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:35 pm 
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Man I'm always in this over on the Fender forums. I'm not going to be drawn into it too much here. Except to say. Even Paul Reed Smith says fretboard has little to no affect on tone.
And my own one. Concluding that electric guitars garner their sound on the same principles as acoustic guitars is erroneous. An acoustic guitar has it's amp built in. That's all the body is for, it's an amplifier.

But loads of love and everyone tell me I'm wrong. I don't care and won't argue the point. I love this forum and each and every contributor. don't want fall outs.

FWIW the aggressive tone out of the EL84 mini recto is probably down to those EL84's. I thought the recto to have an aggressive treble anyway. It's that grinding distorted sound. Albeit coupled with a massive bass. That traditional 6L6's focus on, high treble and low bass. Throw in EL84's that have the most unusual anarchic sounding high mid. And you're only going to exacerbate the high end.

I love EL84's my fave gigging amp is a self built 18watt Watkins Dominator/Marshall clone. It cuts like hell. Just don't play a bass through it unless you want to sound like Lemmy.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:20 am 
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Thanks for weighing in!

I (naturally... :lol: ) have a different opinion about the acoustic nature of electric guitars. The resonance of the electric guitar wood means that the pickups will move relative to the strings at the resonance frequencies. This adds (or subtracts) these frequencies from those captured from the strings by the pickups. Further, these resonant frequencies affect the string vibrations directly.

You can hear the resonance of the wood when you play unplugged. Note that some guitars are louder, some brighter, etc. when played unplugged.

I respect Randall, Doug, Paul, and the rest of you, but I reserve the right to be, as my wife says, "difficult".

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:10 am 
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Just to clarify: I'm referring only to fret board wood. I believe there is a difference in full body woods, and different neck joint and construction techniques, that contribute in a more meaningful way to resonance and tone. Assuming the electronics don't overrule everything , of course. <cough> EMG <cough>

Quote:
I regularly use rosewood fingerboards and the tones from the recto are awesome, but this is not happening with my maple fingerboard guitar.

The OP mentioned one guitar having a tone that is drastically different, and that he is unhappy.

He is having an issue with tonal variance between guitars, and has theorized that the fret board material is the culprit. I'm saying that the conclusion that the fret board material is making the large tonal difference is unlikely. It is possible that the fret board is contributing to the tonal difference, but that it is minor would not be the most effective place to start the troubleshooting. If the OP is unhappy with a specific guitar's tone, as compared to other guitars, I would recommend starting with Pickup replacement/alteration. I believe that is what Authorized Boogie was getting at.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:21 pm 
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I agree in general, and to a point. If the tone is a LOT different, then probably not the wood.

If it is a subtle difference that the OP is especially sensitive to, it could be the wood.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:03 pm 
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Elvis, try this mate. I really do respect your differing opinion to mine. But please indulge me for a second, to see why I think, what I think.

Take your guitar, unplugged. Play a open E chord. Nice full chord, using all strings. Hear the way it sounds unplugged.

Take your guitar, unplugged. But this time, touch the body against a big piece of wooden furniture. The kitchen table (I do everything in the kitchen) is a fave of mine. Play that same open E chord. Hear that it sounds different. Louder, maybe a better bass end response. But it sounds significantly different. If I was to use common guitar dogma, I'd say resonant.

Now set an amp to a clean flat eq sound. Have it quite loud so you're not hearing the unplugged aspect of the guitar. Plug the guitar in
then repeat the previous two steps. But this time listen for a difference in sound from the speaker.

If you have the hearing of a bat, you may hear a minuscule, minute difference. Nothing anywhere near as dramatic as the sound difference when unplugged.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:03 pm 
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Interesting. I will try that.

Would you be willing to try this?

Take two different guitars, say mahogany and ash or alder. Put the same model pickups in them. Play them through any amp. Do they sound the same?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:15 pm 
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I've done just that with 2 Strats. A Custom Shop Custom Classic, with SCN's and S1, rosewood board and ash body. And a 2004 Anniversary Deluxe with SCN's, S1 and a maple board and alder body. Even the trems are the same.

Aside from the Deluxe being about at least 1db louder, because of the increased pickup height (it was something I overlooked when I took the test). There's no appreciable difference in sound.

I'll dig it out and post it. I think I may have to re-activate the youtube channel first. It's about 5 years ago I did it. They're both going through a very clean Watkins Clubman. It was the British equivalent of a Fender Champ in the 50's. Very basic, no real colouring via eq.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Here you go mate. God it was 2009, how time flies when you're wasting it, eh

https://youtu.be/emNlebBMdUw

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:01 pm 
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Cool! Interesting, they sound different to me. Not sure how much is extra harmonic content from the amp, as the maple guitar is definitely louder. I'd have liked to hear with a plectrum, though.

In the end, believe what you will. Neither of us is likely to change the other's mind.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:01 am 
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Yeah I'd do the test again. But the SCN's from the CS guitar are gone. Bill Lawrence made them for Fender in the first year of their production. No doubt something he had written into the contract. In the years after, Fender made them in house. I dunno what it was but the hookup leads just couldn't stay on the back of the pickups. The CS guitar now has Bareknuckles. I also have SCN's on my Vintage Hotrod. But that has a vintage correct bridge.

I don't hear any difference except volume. I may do a complete swap between the CS and Hotrod. Because I prefer the Hotrod playability. If I do, I'll re-do the test. Make sure the set up is the same. And maybe rig some sort of plucking machine up. To keep the picking even. Which was why I used my thumb, thinking I'd get more control.

I can promise, at that volume. Harmonic content from the amp is at a minimum. It's a tone control, then a volume. Going into a basic as hell circuit that just makes what you put in, louder.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:54 pm 
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You have to mod the Recto series amps before they can sound good with maple fretboards. And they don't like rosewood from certain countries (especially if illegal), either! You can't fool them!!! :shock:

These are First World problems for sure! :lol: Seriously, it's not a massive difference such that it wouldn't "work" with a certain amp. Mesas are the most tweakable amps around. It's part of your personal tone journey to figure out what you need for each guitar/amp and adjust accordingly before playing. This can include customized pickups and strings for certain guitars to better match their natural tones and/or make up for something you feel is lacking. For example, I have certain guitars that have plenty oomph but need a little "sparkle", so I use brighter strings, sometimes light top/heavy bottom gauge. For guitars that sound thin/bright, I use strings with a rounder, thicker sound. Even beyond this, simply tweaking the Mesa is enough for any guitar that is setup the way you like it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:59 pm 
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elvis wrote:
Icarusuki wrote:
Just to jump into the fray:

TL;DR version: You have different guitars and their sounds differ. That is normal. If you want to figure out why they sound different, look at the pickups first, not the fret board material.


** Please note that I am only talking about similar or identical guitars with the same model pickups.

Icarusuki wrote:
None of this should be construed to mean that Elvis cannot hear the difference. Maybe he can. Sometimes the hoof beats you hear are Zebras, not horses.... but when Occam's Razor is applied, taking into account all that we know about bias and human perception, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof and we don't have that.

~Icarusuki


I don't disagree that pickups can have more of an effect than wood in many or most cases (the exceptions are that some pickups are so similar that switching between them has little effect). It would be ludicrous to claim that they do not.

My point is that it is similarly ludicrous to claim the woods do not affect tone. Seriously, anyone who has played a bunch of the SAME EXACT guitar model must have noticed a difference from guitar to guitar. In my own experience, I have owned guitars that were the same model, with the same pickups, but with different woods (either different body wood or different fingerboard wood or both). I have also read about and spoken with other players and luthiers who have similar experiences. There should be no question that wood makes a difference. If it REALLY did not, then manufacturers would make all guitars from the cheapest wood and call it a day, other than a few boutique guys. I defy anyone to play a Basswood guitar vs a Swamp Ash or Mahogany guitar with the same shape and pickups and find no difference. As an example, I had a basswood guitar that I could not get to sound the same as identical mahogany and alder guitars (I tend to stock up on similar body styles or guitar models). I went through several sets of quite different pickups, but the guitar always sounded spongy. I took it to a luthier who confirmed that the electronics and wiring were fine and that this had been his experience with basswood as well.

As much as Boogie does not design their amps around wood types, neither do they design around pickups. Imagine if you could play only humbuckers through a JP-2C. Or only DiMarzio through the Mark V. I think you may be reading too much into Authorized's comment.

I am familiar with Occam's razor, but I really don't see these as extraordinary claims. I can also point to significant evidence to back it up. If you want real science, I think it would be relatively easy to measure guitars of varying woods with a spectrum analyzer to find the frequency and impulse response, much as they do with speakers. I'm fairly certain that Line 6 must have done this to make the Variax guitar models. The hard part would be getting the collection of instruments together.


I probably spend 90% of my "goofing off" guitar time playing the electrics unplugged in my den or living room. I can absolutely hear the difference in different models with different woods. And I have to adjust my amps slightly for different guitars (mostly bass and treble knobs or very slight tweaks to GEQ), because that's the way it is. I've never, ever found a guitar that could not sound PHENOMENAL through my Mesas.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:26 am 
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I solved the problem. Steinberger graphite neck has none of the problems and works well with my Boogie amps. Seriously, I don't want my guitar to sound like my grandpa's guitars so if I hear the wood I'm not one bit happy.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:58 pm 
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ryjan wrote:
sonoragazzo wrote:

Am I missing something?, did the rectifiers are specially designed for darker woods? :(


Try a yellow guitar. I notice most of my amps sound better with yellow, white, or silver guitar. The brand of your guitar strap will influence the "mids" too.


It's not really the brand of strap, but rather if it is leather or nylon. And I find that white contrast stitching on a leather strap gives my favorite guitar a smidgen more bite on the top end! 8)

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