Heartbreaker with 6v6's

The Heartbreaker started sounding good the day I tossed the 6L6's and moved into EL34's. To get authentic brit tone, I got a greenback voiced speaker, and the Heartbreaker Lust channel cranked out rock and hard rock tones with a great deal of authority.

However - curious that the Bogner Goldfinger uses 6v6's to get pretty authentic crossover tones, I wanted to try 6v6's in the Heartbreaker which should, by its design, be THE premier crossover amp.

I got a two sets of matched pairs....eg.....a pair of JJ's and a pair of Tungsol RI's, and they are matched as a quad. Thanks to thetubestore for undertaking such an unusual request.

Using the Mesa back panel instructions, I put the bias on the 6L6/6v6 setting and loaded the new tubes. They farted out with no tone. So I got in touch with thetubestore guys who looked into the Heartbreaker design data and told me that at the tweed voltages, 6v6's don't bias at all like 6L6's (like the Mesa bias switch would appear to instruct)....in fact, they bias very close to what Mesa has their EL34 switch biased at tweed voltages.

So I switched the bias over to EL34 with the 6v6's and the tubes came to life. I will say that the 6v6 quad, although they rate right dab in the center of the idle current ratings, remain just a tad cold using the EL34 bias, and just as advice to other's that may be convinced to give this a try, get tube selections that will bias a little hotter with the EL34 bias switch in tweed. The bias voltages are found in a chart on one of the latter pages of the Heartbreaker schematic which can be found in a websearch.

Now, I didn't know if I'd like the JJ's or the Tungsols, as these are opposite flavors of 6v6's from what I gathered from some samplings of written opinion on different gear forums.....which is why I ordered a pair of each, and again, the two pairs were also matched.

In researching more details like tube output impedances and the like, I am taken to understand that when running one pair of 6v6's I would ideally have to run a 16 ohm speaker in the 4 ohm jack for a close to output tube impedance match with the HB transformer. Unfortunately, I only own an 1x12 8 ohm speaker, and I found that running a single pair using my impedances didn't quite cut it, probably because the bias remains a hair cold and the speaker/impedances mismatch probably just set it in the wrong direction....However, running the pairs as a quad gives me pretty good tone, and certainly better than either pair individually.

For comparison, I run my EL34's on edge of breakup. They have a sweet compression and crunch to them that I love and that makes me want to play hard rock all the time - but I don't push them into mush zone like vintage Marshall guys love - I leave them on the edge of breakup....Masters at noon or slightly better. If I need more drive...pedals. The amp takes pedals extremely well.

This mismatched 6v6 quad has a crunch that is not dissimilar to the EL34's at exactly the same settings. That is a pleasant surprise. They don't have the compression the EL34's have...they feel a little snappier or more rigid...but their tone is closer to the EL34 than to a 6L6 IMO. I'd say they are more tonally balanced than EL34, just not quite as bright (this is a dark sounding amp...), but their tone doesn't get grainy and harsh as you crank the presence knob as it seems to with the 34's/greenbacks. So the presence control can be used liberally ......Overall the tone controls seem to be more responsive with the 6v6's. Somedays I think that EL34's have such a stamp on the tone when their overdriven that the only control that does anything is the treble. Not so with the 6v6's. The tone switches, particularly trim and fat, impart much more significant tonal changes. Trim gets into that fendery midscooped tone, both channels....and fat imparts a more mid-focussed british flavor. With EL34's it was British or thick British.

Most encouraging is that I am getting most of what I want to hear on the beloved Lust channel with the edge of breakup crunch tones, but the BIG plus the 6v6's have over the EL34's is on the Love Channel - the love Channel tones definately shine out better tone. In particular, I am really really digging the Love Channel low gain clean, but surprisingly LOVING the "normal" high gain tones with these tubes with the gain at noon or below. WOW! Awesome alt. blues tones sitting there.

To be frank - with my greenback voiced speaker - I haven't been able to bond with the Love Channel with EL34's. The fizz in the upper mids just kills them. Its where greenbacks and 34's work together to give classic rock, but is so far away from american tonality that the clean channel just doesn't cut it with this configuration. I'd guess a less british speaker with EL34's would be another way to work around this.

With 6v6's I'm getting better use out of all the channels and tone switches of this amp. Its got a more laid back tone that inspires more to blues than to hard rock.....compared to EL34's.... but the tonal flexibility I think will win the 6v6 over the EL34 configuration for my gigging neeeds.

One further thing....given that these tubes bias up like EL34's, I'm thinking it may very well be possible to configure the amp with a one set of 6v6's and EL34's sitting in the amp, one as an inside and the other as an outside pair - so when I run in half power mode, I get the 6v6's by themselves with their 2x14W output....and then when I flip to full power I get the 6v6 and EL34 working together in tandem. Blues to hard rock at the flick of a switch? I'm going to give this a whirl after I can confirm I'm not going to blow up tubes or something by doing this.

I've also heard that good crossover tones can be found with KT77's or 6CA7's.....??? Any experience out there?

Also, I'd like to hear what this amp sounds like with Celestion Golds.

I tried the El34+6v6 arrangement today. It worked. No "magic smoke" appeared.

Having sampled the JJ's and Tungsols, I picked the TS's for the 6v6 side of the integrated quad. Nothing against the JJ's, but in my particular situation they were farther away from the bias sweet spot, and by themselves actually sounded a lot like a 6L6..mid-scoopy with lots of breadth. I like more focussed tones, rather than wide tones due to band context. The TS's had punchier mids and seemed closer to the bias sweet spot, although still sounding a bit cold, a problem that gets worse when I switch to the tube rectifier.

With the EL34 in combination, the 6v6's imparted a little bit more percussiveness (spank) to the tone, but the compromise was that the tone is less focussed than either pair alone. I liked the Love channel tone less with the integrated quad than with the TS's alone, but better than with the EL34's alone. I may like the Lust Channel.

I definately like the flexibility of running 2x6v6 for practise and when volumes is required, switching to the integrated pairs.

Right on! I miss my Heartbreaker!

Just out of curiosity, does your amp have a lag time when changing channels in the Tweed mode?
My last one was a very early serial # and there was about a half a second lag time with a strange volume swell when using the Tweed mode.
Real shame too, because my band changes sounds a lot and I loved the tone from the Tweed setting.

I don't switch extensively between tones during songs, so I have never noticed any issue with the channel switching. When I first got the amp, i could switch channels using either the faceplate switch or the footswitch. Now only the footswitch will work, so clearly there is something going on. I'm hoping its only a bit of corrosive resistance on the footswitch jack shunt that is in place when the footswitch cable is not in the jack. The switch itself checked out with my multimeter.

That said, my Heartbreaker I believe is June 2001 production, which is well into Version 2 of the reverb circuit, and probably out of that bad batch of LDR's.

As far as missing the heartbreaker. It's a very deep amp, in terms of a platform for exploring tones. It has 5 classic preamp circuits, as you know, and you can mix and match power tubes every which way to find what works. I won't be parting with mine any time soon. If I had one wish, it would be that it had a bit of sag to it. I can't find sag anywhere, tube rectifier (s) including my current 5U4.

However, with these 6v6's I can go country spank, blues, rock, and hard rock...JCM style with an OCD pedal. Awesome gigging amp for the multi-genre cover band I'm in. I've gassed at times for a Maverick and Blue Angel, but I've explored so much with the Heartbreaker, and moved my tone so far ahead of what I've heard from other amps, I'm smiling more and more every gig. I've only been using this amp since December....it sat in a closet for 5 years prior to, simply because I had no idea that the power tube selection is so vital to the tone of this amp.

I never tried it, but Bob from Eurotubes swears that you can run the HB in the Full Power mode with 6V6's.
As long as the bias is correct, the amp should be ok. Providing the tubes hold up!

One of these days, I will find one on my island and buy it!

I have likewise read that Eurotubes's / JJ 6v6's can handle some pretty high voltages.....They sound like 6L6's and look like 6L6's, but I guess they only pack the power of a 6v6. Cool tube to have in the arsenal, but admit the 6L6 sound isn't for me.

Took the Heartbreaker to a top tech today, and we A/B'd the amp (dimed) with a Celestion ?70? vs. the Reignmaker. The Reignmaker had the affect of making the tubes fart out sooner than the ?70?. Looks like an Impedance vs. Frequency thing. (Note that I have an 8 ohm Reignmaker, but should have a 16 ohm unit for a single pair of 6v6's for this 4x6L6 OT configuration. If anyone is curious about trying the attenuation features of this speaker with the heartbreaker, you should probably get a 16 ohmer.)

Not a big deal.

Fate smiled on me about 20 minutes later when a guy walked into the next store I was at with a Marshall 1960AX cab (4x12 w/ greenbacks)...He was going to trade for a 2x12 with the store, and I made him a cash offer slightly better than the credit he was going to get.

I'll keep the Reignmaker 1x12 for the living room, but the 4x12 is definately my new gigging cab.

BTW, the tech thought the Heartbreaker sounded stellar. "Dark, but still really great". He said this with an introspective kind of of amazement. As a rule, he is prejudicial against Mesa's (low gain guy).

Monsta-Tone said:

Right on! I miss my Heartbreaker!

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I miss mine right now, too. I gigged back to back shows this last weekend, and had the best tones I've ever had in my life. In fact, they may have been the best tones I've ever heard. At least from the amp - my micing techniques need a little work, as the sound through the PA didn't really give proper justice to what I had going on behind me.

When this amp gets hot from being on for a long time, it drifts into a more touch sensitive organic sounding tone. I have it on standby for about 2 hours before a show which is something I don't do just to noodle around at home.

I haven't had an opportunity to light it up for 2 days and am getting separation anxiety. I LOVE that amp so much. I got it dialed in so perfectly right now, its all sweetness with all the right articulation and balance and such.

I've discovered recently that spending time finding the balance between treble and presence controls is worth a lot of attention. The treble shifts the mid and bass frequencies (interactive tone stack), so I've been working with this idea that you primarily use the treble knob to find where the mids and bass sound the best, and then use the presence to deliver the treble you desire. Right now, I'm finding the sweet spot with treble and presence sitting around 1:00.

I hope no knobs got bumped in transport...its been a lifetime of education getting to this.

Played my first large arena gig last night, opening for a famous classic rock act. First time experience with that huge stadium sound and a full-on production sound system...At least 30 cabinets in total. The rumble of the bass frequencies through the stage and feeding back from the room is an experience unlike any other. (The experience of it all was a bit overwhelming to be honest).

Anyways, I had my Heartbreaker feeding through my new 4x12 marshall cab with greenbacks, and the sound engineer who was touring with the major act said "Ohhhh....I'm really liking that!" at soundcheck. Tone is currency in the R&R business. I love this rig.

Tommy_G said:

Played my first large arena gig last night, opening for a famous classic rock act. First time experience with that huge stadium sound and a full-on production sound system...At least 30 cabinets in total. The rumble of the bass frequencies through the stage and feeding back from the room is an experience unlike any other. (The experience of it all was a bit overwhelming to be honest).

8) Anyways, I had my Heartbreaker feeding through my new 4x12 marshall cab with greenbacks, and the sound engineer who was touring with the major act said "Ohhhh....I'm really liking that!" at soundcheck. Tone is currency in the R&R business. I love this rig.

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Love mine too! Used it this weekend with a 412 for the first time in a LONG time. ****! I hate having to play the smaller venues with a small cab. I forgot what the Heartbreaker is really capable of!

Tommy -I thought you might get a kick out of this since you're such a fanboy.
I got a new set of handwound strat pickups recently and popped them in. They're a 50's wind; lower output than I'm used to. At first I just couldn't decide if they were going to work for me. They were responsive but thin, lacking bass and punch with excess highs. Then I remembered the eq on my Heartbreaker (duh). I brought the treble down a little, minute adjustments to bass and mids and voila! Everything clicked right into place. The difference blew me away, I have never seen an amp's eq have this much effect before. The fullness was right there, fat bass, punch -the whole 9 yards. I know it's silly to think that your amp's eq is an all-ecompassing sweet spot for any guitar, but the tweak really impressed me. I knew the HB had toanz but this is getting ridiculous. For the first time in my 17 years playing guitar, I'm beginning to think one amp could really be all I need (and dirt pedals too). My satisfaction level continues to max out since I got the right speakers in it (WGS Blackhawk and Green Beret FWIW). I really want to play it loud to find where the headroom limit is. I also have a 412 at home but it needs work.

The tech I took my HB to to check the bias levels with 6v6's made the statement that my rig would benefit tonewise from lower output pickups. Sounds like you hit it right. I lowered my pickups down after my visit to him, and that helped put the articulation dynamics in a more toneful range.

When you describe your vintage wired pickups in terms of tone, I find it compelling that they are exactly opposite of how most would describe the Heartbreaker's voicing.....Kind of a yin and yang thing going on methinks....! I can sort of grasp how things could get interesting with tonal interactions like that, which would be particularly pronounced with how and where you picked the strings.

Thanks for the post, very interesting concept!

BTW - I'm finding the amp opens up just right with my channel masters at about 1:30 and the final level control in the 11:00-1:00 range. With the extra harmonics that happen with some power tube distortion, one has to believe that the optimal preamp design would have to sound a bit dull without the benefit of those harmonics.

Out of curiousity what dirt pedals are you using?

For dirt pedals I use a Kingsley Jouster, Barber Super Sport and Gainster. I have a few others on the shelf that don't get used much. The amp is insanely flexible!

I use an OCD, it crunches great with humbuckers, blues, rock, hard rock...great pedal. Also, believe it or not, an old Peavey Hotfoot HFD-2 from the 80's. Kickass pedal for juicy supersaturated lead tones. I have at least 5 others, but they don't hold a candle to these.

My Heartbreaker was monsta toned, so it doesn't need gain at all, but for those kind of flavors I have the four Zoom pedals that they did when the company made its brief and only venture into analog.
It's interesting what you're saying about the 6V6 and bias. I run four of these in my Rectifier old school Solo head with the bias switched into the EL34 position. It sounds great... Been doing it for over a year now... I run bold and spongy, but always with the tube rectifier. I do think it offers a sound that is slightly different from Mesas tradionally cold bias.
I have not tried this in my Heartbreaker, however. I went with 6L6's for a while, and do like those for Love, but since Andy sent it back It has been loaded with the 34's. His lust voicing is pretty addictive.
Anyways, setup on the amp after the "pedal board" (which is a Lehle with the Zoom's in a loop on c channel)- MXR EVH Flanger, Deja Vibe, amp, speaker out to Celestion Golds through a Dr Z Air Brake, slave out to a Red Witch Moon Phaser which feeds the guitar in of a Subway Blues loaded into a cab with one V30 and four Vintage 8's.
Great, great Boogie amp- and they seem to be absolute steals on Ebay.

Tommy_G, which rectifier did you run when you originally used the 6V6s with the EL34 bias - tube or SS rectifier? Thanks.