Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

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Roadrunner
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Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by Roadrunner » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:23 am

Hi all.
It’s a while now that I have the TC50 paired with a 4x12 Recto cab and as far as I'm in love with the blue channel (with or without a drive pedal in front, with or without FX), I can't say the same on the red channel.
Main sound target I'm looking to get from the red channel is a massive tight rhythm distortion and as far as I tried messing around with its e.q, it's always kind of flubbing / getting loose on the edges with some mud, the sound is not tight, when palm muting it's not like a punch in a concrete wall but more like a punch in the sofa with aftershock mud (trying to be creative describing what I hear :lol: ).
So, my question to you guys who play metal and stuff, how do you dial the red, please share your settings for an aggressive tight metal chunk.
Thanks.

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jnoel64
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by jnoel64 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:43 am

I don't play much metal these days, at least not so much modern metal. The first obvious question I have is: have you flipped the Tight switch on channel 3? If so, have you tried a graphic EQ in the loop? A few posts down in this section have some sound samples of a TC100 with a graphic in the loop and the tonal possibilities seem endless. I have one for my loop, but haven't done anything with it yet.....yet.
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Roadrunner
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by Roadrunner » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:00 am

have you flipped the Tight switch on channel 3?
Ofcourse.

have you tried a graphic EQ in the loop?
No, sounds interesting, i will try that, I got an HD500x running on the amp in 4CM so no prob' adding an e.q block for that.
Thanks.

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jnoel64
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by jnoel64 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:27 am

I guessed you probably did, but no one had asked yet. I find I want more low end in mine sometimes, but never had any flub. I'm using a Recto vertical 2x12 cab. Bottom speaker is the Mesa V30 and top speaker is a WGS Invader 50. The WGS actually added some lower mids that I felt were missing...still no flub on mine.

Out of curiosity, what pickups are you using? Active/passive? I had some issues with an active EMG Gilmour set and had to pull them. They were slamming the front end too hard for my tastes.
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by Roadrunner » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:51 am

All my guitars are passive, all are humbuckers @ the bridge, few are high output, few are medium…
The input signal is perfect, and I sometimes boost it a little with a light overdrive in the front.
However, I found myself playing rhythm and lead only on the blue channel as for leads the red was too thin for me and for chunky rhythm it just got lost in the mix.

bandit2013
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by bandit2013 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:02 am

I have both TC-50 and the TC-100. The 50 does not seem to do what you describe and it remains tight on CH3, actually has a dry tone to it and works great with palm muting. However, I am running a Vertical 212 cab but I do have the OS Recto 412 (stock) to give it a go and see if the bass response is how you describe. I actually find the Vertical 212 has more of a deeper / darker tone to it with ample bass vs the 412 cab which has more midrange content.

I am assuming you are running EL34 tubes. If not, and you opted to go with 6L6 tubes, that will do it. The TC-50 sounds best with EL34 or the 6V6 tubes. I was not overly impressed with the 6L6 tubs in the amp. However the Mesa 5881 were a little better than the STR440 6L6 tubes. Still I feel the TC-50 and or the TC-100 is best served up with the EL34 power tubes.

The case with the TC-100 will do what you have described on CH3. Seems to be a bit more saturated on the bottom end. Not quite flubby but looser than the TC-50. That all changed when I replaced the power tubes with new one's. Had blue color coded tubes to start but those lost their flavor after several months of use, amp got darker in tone and a bit muddy. Now have a new set of Mesa EL34 yellows and it sounds much better. Still not as dry or tight as the TC-50.

A few suggestions: V3, you can either get some new Mesa 12AX7 tubes or swap V4 with V3. V3B is a secondary gain stage that is added on CH3 and not used on CH2. Tone stack sits at the end of the chain on V4B (last gain stage of both CH2 and CH3). I think your best bet would be to change V3 with a new tube, you could always swap out any of the tubes from the first channel (V1 or V2, V2 does not use the B circuit so I would try that tube and exchange V2 with V3). It could also be power tubes, phase inverter V6 or the 12AT7 tube in V5. I would highly recommend the Mesa 12AT7 as replacement for V5 as this will retain the brightness of the amp. Other varieties like the JAN/Phillips 12AT7 will warm up the tone too much (tried it and actually prefer the Mesa (Chinese tube) 12AT7 in the TC series (same would apply to the RA amps as well, but it is a trick to warm up the RA if the Mesa 12AT7 runs too bright).

Keep in mind, some may say change V1, with the TC series, that will only affect ch1 since V3A is the first gain stage for CH2 and CH3.

I hope you can get resolve on your issue. Have you tried to contact Mesa Tech Service on this? You can email them and see what they say regarding the swamped low frequency CH3.

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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by Mookakian » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:05 am

I get exactly what you describe, i assumed the amp is voiced more for rock than metal so gave up dialing as it just never worked out, loads of hair and mush which can work for sizzling metal but for tight rhythm metal tones its just too mushy, i tried an eq in the loop and while i could get a better chugging tone the amps response to the pick and its clipping didnt suit, played my Boss Katana and it kills the TC50 for metal...

Shame... Ch2 has plenty enough gain for rock voici g and would have loved some nice thick tight metal tones out of ch3 but its just not voiced to pull it off... So we are blessed with another rock voiced gain channel with way too much gain available, past 1Oclock it looses punch and gets hairy, which may work for lead stuff but chorded rhythm is just loose and flabby

bandit2013
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by bandit2013 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:35 pm

Hmm. I have both the TC-50 and TC-100. Also I am using the Vertical 212 cab with each. I do have a OSRSF412 I could try out with either.

The TC-100 definitely has more bottom end delivery where I find the TC-50 is not as abundant but yet similar only dry and tight. The vertical 212 cabs will differ in tone and response compared to the Oversized Recto slant front 412 (OSRSF412). I use the OSRSF412 with my RA100 head and no mud either but that one was made in 2014.

What year was your 412 cab made? I have one from 2000 that would flub out terribly with the stock speakers, changed over to EV in that cab. I have one from 2014 that is quite different, balanced and difficult to get into flubbing. If it is an older cab it could be speaker related or volume related (meaning the volume of the closed chamber the speakers are in). Why the old cab that did not get used very much does not sound like the new one. Reason I did not use the cab much is the flub out issue I had with the Mark IV and that cab.


There are 4 tubes that could be to blame other than the power tubes (top end usually goes with extended use). However, V3, V4 comprise the Hi/Lo gain channel. V4 may be out of spec if your tone is not so good. Tone stack sits on the last gain stage. Chain is lo gain: V3a->V4a->V4b tone stack. Hi gain is V3a->V3b->V4a->V4b tone stack. If it is V3 bringing on the heat in the low frequency it may be pushing the last two stages hard. The third tube to consider, is the last tube would be the phase inverter getting tired. This can also contribute tone issues. And then the 12AT7 in V5 (FX loop send/return) also influences tone. Check to confirm that V5 has a 12AT7 (use the Mesa tube only as this is a cathode follower circuit).

Roadrunner
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Re: Mud in the red channel - stock tubes.

Post by Roadrunner » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:35 pm

Mookakian wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:05 am
I get exactly what you describe, i assumed the amp is voiced more for rock than metal so gave up dialing as it just never worked out, loads of hair and mush which can work for sizzling metal but for tight rhythm metal tones its just too mushy, i tried an eq in the loop and while i could get a better chugging tone the amps response to the pick and its clipping didnt suit, played my Boss Katana and it kills the TC50 for metal...

Shame... Ch2 has plenty enough gain for rock voici g and would have loved some nice thick tight metal tones out of ch3 but its just not voiced to pull it off... So we are blessed with another rock voiced gain channel with way too much gain available, past 1Oclock it looses punch and gets hairy, which may work for lead stuff but chorded rhythm is just loose and flabby
Exactly described.


On the other hand…..
I went the other day to a friend of mine who runs a nice commercial studio and we connected the TC50 to a Marshall 4x12 (hate them) that was in the cab room and played a little while the amp was running on 11!
The amp sounded good, really good, like I never heard it before (the volume does the job).
Anyhow, went back home, connected it to my Mesa 4x12 in a bedroom volume and……it sounded different in a good way.
It was for sure not my ears fooling me after the test we did in the studio as I gave it a few more days and played it again, same setup / volume (low) and it still, sounded different, more bite, more punch.
It is still not what I was looking for BUT a huge improve.
I doubt the crazy volume did "something" to the amp but can't ignore the difference in the overall sound though.

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