Greenbacks?

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jnoel64

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Has anyone tried Greenbacks, or variants, with their TC series amp? I've been contemplating getting a WGS Invader. I confess I've never been too much of a fan of Greenbacks in general, but have heard some clips with other amps lately that are impacting my opinion.
 
It may well depend on what type of music you play wether Greenbacks work for you. For classic rock I love greenbacks. Until I got some I was never able to nail the classic tones I heard on so many albums.

With my TC I run a 1x12 with a Creamback and a 2x12 with 1 cream back and 1 V30. I’ve been very happy with those...

I think perhaps people are scared off because they hear that the greenbacks have more highs than v30s and looser bass. Even though that’s true, the highs aren’t the kind that drill your ears. I find the V30 mids to are much more trouble to my ears.
 
Remembering that taste is subjective:

There are some older amps that, to me, only sound “right” with greenbacks... but doing a compare/contrast a few weeks ago with my TC-100, I found Greenbacks (g12m) thinner and a touch fizzy vs. Cannibas Rex and a Creamback mix of m65s and h75s.

The cabinets and configurations were not identical but were very close. And I’m not saying the greenbacks sounded bad, by the way, I was just surprised at how much better the other two speakers sounded to my ears... especially since I had gone in kind of in love with the greenback cabinet and was expecting it to blow the others away.

Moral of the story: trust your ears, not your memory of how great a different amp pushes a particular cabinet/speaker.
 
Hey, I can help you out with this. I'm huge on Greenbacks. I use Marshall G12c greenbacks that were modeled on Marshall's old 60's era greenback that they use as a reference speaker. This speaker was sent to Celestion to be re-engineered, and they used them in their Hendrix reissue cabs and Vintage Modern Cabs. They're fantastic sounding Greenbacks. When I want a slightly more 80's metal sound, I've thrown in a couple of 80's G12t75's, in an X pattern which sounds great with greenbacks and a Marshall also.

So--With the Tc-50 at band volumes, through my Vintage Modern 4x12, I felt like both of these configurations sucked. Notice all the official TC-50 vids are done through V30's? To make a long story short, through lots of experimentation, I ended up doing the Friedman Steve Stephens cab configuration of putting Greenbacks on top and v30's on the bottom, and it rocks like crazy. Since Greenbacks aren't very efficient speakers, but they have such a great upper mid sizzle, it'almost like they're putting tweeters on the top, and they produce they're own bass from just being pushed. The efficient V30's on the bottom produce the balls from being **** near twice as loud with lower mids which add a grind and just basically ground the whole thing. The overall effect is that the cab kicks serious *** while sounding pretty smooth and professional too. Cleans, crunch and all out distortion sound great.

The thing about the Greenbacks is that you're going to get a vintage vibe out of them no matter what, and at loud volumes, i just felt that the TC-50's compression didn't work well with them in as the sole speaker, but paired this way with the V30's, it's like have a vintage vibe on mega-steroids. Think setting the Tc on Red, and getting Black Sabbath meets Voivod! (Also depending on guitar and Pups) Luckily enough, this cab configuration works just as well with my Marshall, so I'm pretty psyched about it. In other words, the Greenbacks do add another dimension to the V30's that really works with the tc-50 to my ears, but I think even though I'm no huge V30 fan to begin with, I think it's good to approach this amp from that speaker, since it was obviously designed around it. Kinda live Marshall JVM's are obviously designed around G12t'75's


Another point I need to stress is that Chinese V30's suck. I tried this configuration with Chinese made V30's initially, and I was horrified at how bad they sounded. I didn't have the patience to break them in so I bought two Mesa branded v30's from the Mesa Hollywood store, and they sound amazing out of the box. They are well worth the slightly extra cost.
 
Right after I posted this thread, I looked back to previous threads and found a positive post regarding greenbacks.

I have a vertical 2x12 recto cab that I bought used. When I got it, only the bottom speaker was the original V30. The original top V30 has been replaced with a Celestion G12M-70. I replaced that speaker with a WGS Veteran 30. Since then, I have been waffling about replacing the Veteran 30 with either a WGS Invader or a Celestion Neo Creamback.

I am fully aware that tone is subjective, and that even my definitions of "classic" and "modern" won't necessarily match anyone else's, especially since I have a touch of tinnitus. What I am trying to achieve tonally is a more full (thicker), richer tone. The V30s are almost there, but can still be a little shrill to me. I have been keeping the treble and presence rolled way down but I still think a speaker with a different focus would be a good approach. My other thought is to put a graphic in the loop - have one, just haven't tried it yet.

I have never heard a greenback-style speaker nor a creamback, so I sadly have to rely on YT videos, which I know I can't trust.

I love the TC50 and, even after a year, I am still trying to tailor my tone closer to my tastes, which are heavily influenced by my Electra Dyne. If only that amp had a volume taper like the TC50 and a similar weight!
 
I have never heard a greenback-style speaker nor a creamback, so I sadly have to rely on YT videos, which I know I can't trust.
While the ultimate choice should be made by you and your ears alone, there are tons of great A/B videos on YouTube that can help you get a good idea of the sound you're going to get. A search for greenbacks or creambacks or vintage 30s or whatever will yield countless results; the highest rated among them are well done and a fair representation of the speakers' characteristics.

IMO, that's a great way to narrow your options down (or to find new options you'd never come across on your own!)...
 
Yeah, that's the difficulty....can't hear them in person unless I buy the speakers, lol! I heard a clip of the Neo Creamback compared to the V30 on YT, and I honestly could not hear a difference.

I got very lucky when I bought my Electra Dyne. In person, the amp sounded very different compared to the video demos I watched. I was lucky because I liked the amp so much more once I got to play it. But that taught me a valuable lesson. Now I know what to really listen for when I watch demo videos. But, nothing beats hearing an amp and/or speaker in person.

I think I am going to try the EQ pedal in the loop first. Seems to make the most sense.
 
No experience with the TC but I do own a 4x12 Soldano cab loaded with Invaders and I love them. They are a little less woody in the mid range that than my Marshall cab loaded with greenbacks also they seem to have slightly better (more thump) in the low end department. I also run that cab with my Trem o verb and DR and those two amps love them. I'm a big fan of those speakers. Of course a proper break in period is needed and then they absolutely sing!
 
The GAS took control and I bought the WGS Invader 50 to pair up with the Mesa V30 in my vertical cab. I've been out of town and it arrived while I was gone, so no chance to install and try yet. That may still take a little time as I have way too much on my plate for the next little while. Once I get that done, though, I will definitely post my impressions.
 
I also have a Mesa vertical 2x12 that I recently picked up. It looks like the guy I bought it from never used it, looks mint. And the V30's are NOT broken in so to me they're really harsh sounding and I've had to dial the TC-50 in around these speakers. Not sure how much patience I have because I'm already thinking about swapping speakers. I have a Classic Lead and an ET-65 laying around, but some clips I've heard of the Creamback H75 to me sound really good.
 
I tried the WGS British Lead in that same cab and it wasn't what I was hoping for. I love that speaker in an open back cab I have, especially paired with my Electra Dyne. But the closed back vertical 2x12 just didn't have the same magic to my ears. I was lucky enough to receive my cab with the V30 already broken in. I haven't heard the ET-65, but I do have the ET-90. To me, that speaker was a little too bright for the TC50, but I am half deaf these days, so my opinion should definitely be taken with a grain of salt. I heard some clips of the Neo Creamback and have been struggling to keep from buying it. I have too many speakers lying around without a cab to justify another purchase. But, I am willing to bet I will eventually succumb to GAS.
 
danyeo1 said:
I also have a Mesa vertical 2x12 that I recently picked up. It looks like the guy I bought it from never used it, looks mint. And the V30's are NOT broken in so to me they're really harsh sounding and I've had to dial the TC-50 in around these speakers. Not sure how much patience I have because I'm already thinking about swapping speakers. I have a Classic Lead and an ET-65 laying around, but some clips I've heard of the Creamback H75 to me sound really good.

In my experience with my Mark V and a brand new Mesa vertical 2x12, the speakers were awful sounding for a while till they broke in. So much treble and since the top speaker is aimed at your head, it’s even more pronounced. You may not end up liking the v30s, but give them a chance to break in. I started swapping speakers because of my inexperience and it was kind of a waste of time for me. Mesa (according to others with more knowledge than me) tunes their amps to the v30s. Now that they are broken in, they are fine for me. I still want to try a Greenbatuck, but the v30 isn’t as bad as I initially thought. YMMV
 
I finally got the opportunity to hear my new speaker combo at a proper volume. Even without the Invader being broken in, OMG! I've always leaned more towards a vintage tone, and this combo nails it in spades! I actually had to turn up my treble and presence. The highs are more rounded and the lows are more pronounced. I normally don't prefer channel 3 set to Tight, but it was necessary with these speakers. I can't wait until the Invader is broken in. This is the best I've ever heard my TC50!

EDIT: To be fair, I used my HM Telecaster with SD HB 103 pickups. Those are based on the Duncan Distortion and are some of my favorite full-size humbuckers.
 
Got to play the amp and cab in a band setting yesterday. Cut through the mix great! Amp still sounded glorious with other instruments involved. Ran a Timmy clone with channel 2. Totally amazing! Channel 3 was just as amazing, minus the Timmy. Clean channel was pristine! The entire setup is perfected for me.
 
V30's and other speakers that may be similar have a beaming effect. If you are directly in front of the cabinet (most people do this when they practice or are not in a band setting) you end up being directly in front of the cab and amp, Standing or sitting. what every your preference. Doing this you get the full treble range. Perhaps the Vertical cab has more low end displacement so it will fill the room much better than say the OS Recto slant front 412. I find the tone of the V30 quiet pleasing if I am not directly in front of the cabinet. Off to one side I can hear the full tone of the speaker vs being in the central beam of top end. The beam of the V30 is definitely more pronounced at its center. Even the EV has this sort of thing happening but not as dramatic as it does not have a fabric dust cap like the Celestion speakers. Not sure if the dust cap or voice coil size has much to do with the beam effect. Just thought I would share this... For some time I was not all that impressed with the V30 speaker or any Celestion product. Was all out for EVs and that goes back to 1989 when I got my first exposure to a Mesa EVM12L Black Shadow in a Mark III combo. That has changed over the years so I now like the V30 speaker. Guess it grew on me. Blame it on the Royal Atlantic as I found that amp worked the best with the V30 in a closed back format. TC-50, TC-100 is quite similar but just a little different. Mesa vertical 212 seems to be ideal, and not just with the TC series. Mark V, well that amp can be brutal especially in the top end on CH3. There is a simple fix for that if you get the ice pick (just use a JAN/Philips 12AT7 in V4 and all is well). JP-2C is a darker version, similar to the Mark III (as a reference only). Love it with the Vertical 212, or the OS Recto I have loaded with EVM12L black label speakers. I did try some different speakers in the horizontal 212 just for fun as I am not really using that cab. V30 were ideal, did not really care much for Celestion Cream 90W in that cab. Have a pair I tried in the RA100 combo. Best to combine an alnico with ceramic if going the 212 route but in that case the Cream 90W and Creamback H75 works great together in open back form. My days have ended for the ALNICO speaker for what I do, I much prefer the ceramic magnets. Nothing wrong with a good set of ALNICO drivers, but I found it saturates too much under high gain (distortion) that it tends to loose its edge and definition when pushed hard. For hard distortion, ceramics will be much better.
 
I generally prefer to stand or sit off axis from the cab, regardless of the amp because of the beaming effect. I need to repair my single 12 with my EVM speaker. Rattled the screws right out of place. I may have to resort to some thread locker, lol!

That massive thread on the Mark V Saturation Mod was the sole reason I bought my V last year. With an entire new set of tubes and some deep cleaning of the tube sockets, it's now my amp of choice for one of my bands, regardless of venue size. Will be using it this Saturday at another outdoor gig - supposed to be 94 and humid....yuck.

My Redback must now be fully broken in. I had to remove it from the deep cube shaped cab I had it in to a more traditional, albeit vintage style, open back cab. The speaker continues to impress me more and more with each use.

But the combo I have in my vertical 2x12 is definitely the sonic footprint I want with the TC50. It's like a turbo charged vintage tone that just sings with every note. The bottom end is thick without being muddy and the highs cut through without piercing my ear drums. The mids are pronounced - think late 70s, early 80s Scorpions or Iron Maiden, but even more distortion. Toggling to Tight mode on channel 3 puts every note and chord in your face, but in a pleasing way.
 
Odd, I have tried other speakers in my Horizontal 212 cab and just cannot get past the V30 combination. I have a pair of Celestion Crème 90W speakers I wanted to try in the RA100 Combo since the open back cabinet does not complement the V30 as they tend to sound fizzy at reduced volume. 90W alnico just did not cut it in the Horizontal 212 cab, way too deep toned. Tried one with the Celestion Crèam back G12H75, still muddy. However the Alnico crème and the cream back in the RA100 combo sounded the best. Much better than the pair of creambacks. Thing with the Alnico is they get too saturated and mushy with higher output at higher gain settings. The ceramic of the cream back compensates such that it retains note definition and is much louder when paired with the alnico crème than is with the two creambacks or V30's. I have not tried the V30 blended with the Crème Alnico yet. I could drop in the EV and OTR in the combo but doubt it would fit with the provided studs. Have no intentions on removal of the factory screws.


As for using EV speakers, when front mounted, I used 1-1/2 inch long 10-24 socket head screws with locking nuts and several washers to keep the baffle board being crushed. The head of the screw seats into the holes on the EV, not all the way but close enough. Never had a screw come loose yet. For rear baffle mount, I do the same but with the washers on the grill side. I have painted some of those black so they do not reflect light. However in my OS Recto 412 I loaded EV speakers in, the glue joints did not hold up too well. the baffle board actually became loose. This was a Mesa cab mind you. It spent most of its time in storage between 2004 and 2012. I had restored it and now that cab is so tight it may have lost a bit of resonance but with the EV speaker, it does not matter as that cab is the beast for the heavy work. I was considering moving the one EV speaker out of the deep 1x12 cab and install it in the Mesa widebody open back cab so I can run the JP with it. The OTR that is in there now cuts the top end too much. Still in debate if I want to move the two OTR into the 412 with a pair of EV. I am still evaluating that idea.

I will have to check out the invader. Also my curiosity on the copperback speaker has me waiting for the sound samples and reviews. Not available yet. :(
 
I've had my eye on the Neo Creamback for a while, but no real need for one yet. The sound clips I've heard sounded pretty good.

My EV is in a Carvin 1x12 tweed open back cab. I'm not sure I can actually remove the grill, but it definitely needs to come off. I can see one of the t-nuts dislodged itself and is now down at the bottom of the grill. I got the cab more for it's looks because of the oldies band I'm in. But, honestly, since running my V in tweed mode through the Redback, I may just have to move the EV to a different cab altogether. That combo with my V is pure heaven in the oldies group.

I wasn't all that thrilled with my vertical 2x12 until I matched the Invader with the V30. The lows became thicker and the highs became creamier. The midrange bump was almost too much, but I expect that to dissipate as the speaker breaks in. I have yet to try my GEQ pedal in the loop, but that's coming soon after I finish the pedal board I'm making - totally taking the "kitchen sink" approach to this one.

I definitely do not need any more new cabs. My basement is already starting to look like a museum, and I'm not using most of the gear. I still have a stack of speakers in boxes, not in use. As much as I would hate to part with anything, I kinda feel somewhat obligated to liquidate what I don't use so someone else can put things to use and enjoy them. Collecting dust seems like such a waste. But I know as soon as I sell something, I'll get an idea on where to use it and regret letting it go. First world problems, lol!
 
I am a hoarder too. I have speaker boxes in the kitchen taking up space. They used to fill a closet in the spare bedroom. I was in a speaker test mode trying different speakers in the RA100 Combo or the Mark V combo. The V is done, no need to make any changes but once I put the spare speakers away, I will have an idea to try something else. What to do with them is the other question. Definitely want to try the redback with the RA100 and see what happens. If that works out, will have to get another pair in 16ohms vs the one I have as an 8 ohm. I still have the Crème alnico 90W 8 ohm speaker, should try that with the Redback and see how that goes. The RA combo is a tricky amp to find a good combination of speakers for. It has a narrow width to it compared to the horizontal 212 cab as well as it is not a full open back form. More of an oval football hole and an area to vent and cool the tubes. I may try to go with the V30's again as a bench mark and see how things change from there.
 

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