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 Post subject: Triple Crown Rig Idea
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:20 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
So far the TC-50 has been a joy to play. It is a bit more refined than the RA100 but yet has similar tones if I install the proper mix of preamp tubes in the RA.

For a while now I have been paring up the TC-50 with the RA100 and running stereo. TC-50 is driving a Vertical 212 and the RA100 is driving a slanted OS Recto 412. I am in debate if I shout jump on another OS Recto 412 bit in the straight format for a complete stack but I doubt I will ever lift the slanted 412 by myself to stack it on top. Since I have two Vertical 212 cabs I may opt for a traditional sized slant front 412 cab. Why you may ask? My plan is simple but yet not. Since I am planning on getting the TC-100 and keeping the TC-50 I can daisy chain the two with midi out/in and use on footswitch to control both. Thankfully the same midi commands are used (had to check the manual on the TC-100 and compare it to the TC-50). The next step if the TC-100 pans out would be to get another TC-50. The TC-50(s) each driving the Vertical 212 will become the left and right channels and the TC-100 driving a 412 would be the center channel. Since I have two RA100's I can test out the rig idea with the one TC-50 and all I would need is another Lehle P-split 2 to separate the guitar signal into three paths vs two. Since the isolated channel can shift phase, the two isolated channels will feed left and right side will be in phase with each other and the center cannel will be out of phase. So far this may sound like there would be some cancellation of the signal. So far just running a pair in parallel with one out of phase just sounds awesome. It does get louder when they are in phase so perhaps there is some cancellation (depends on how close the cabinets are to each other). At least with three amps I can possibly use the center with delay or the outer to with delay. Still need to work out some details but I think having two TC-50 and one TC-100 would do the trick. Also the rig could be scalable down to just two TC-50 running in stereo, a single TC-100 or a single TC-50.

What do I like better, the TC-50 or the JP-2C..... That is a tough question. At the moment I would have to side with the TC-50, but then again the JP-2C is still on the top pedestal especially if I am in the Metal mood. I also have the Roadster to blend with it if I so desire or the Mark V.

I think the TC-50 x 2 would be awesome and added TC-100 would top it off. So the next step is to get the TC-100 once Mesa starts shipping them. I may be able to get a deal on the other TC-50 if I look for used or just get a new one. I do like the TC-50 on its own but when paired with the RA100 everything just opens up and perfectly. The only issue is channel switching, since the RA lacks midi control it would make better sense to get the TC-100. Since there is no limit on how many amps you can daisy chain, adding another TC-50 feasible.

I am part way there anyways. I have the two vertical 212 cabs, all I need is two more triple crown amps and possibly another 412 (I must be nuts). Yes I am nuts. I think the straight version of the traditional 412 cab may be a better choice than the slanted front. Also, when pairing up the TC-50 with the RA, the heavy stuff definitely kills me on CH3 (TC) with vintage hi gain on the RA. So metal is definitely in. I will soon find out what the TC-100 does to the mix when paired up with its sibling. If it is anything like what I am hearing with the TC and RA it is a win.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 10:58 am
Posts: 5
Can’t wait to see the results of this and hopefully see some videos. Really looking forward to a TC100 myself. Can you post som pictures of your gear? Thanks man


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
When I get the TC-100 I will. At the moment the only pair of brit toned amps I have would be the TC-50 and the RA100. Now that does me some good to hear it paired up with a bit of phase difference between the two amps. It is a totally different world than a mono set up.

This is what started my fever:
Image

Here is a shot of all of my cabinets with the JP-2C. Note the JP was not hooked up to all of the cabs. Only the 412 and the 212 just below it. The result of the 412 and 212 was not what I expected. Was hoping for more depth like I can get with the two vertical 212s.
Image

At least I have a 412 I can use and two vertical 212 cabs. The 412 is the OS Recto and it sounds great with the RA100. Not too bad with the TC-50. I am definitely considering the straight traditional 412 cab (used to be the known as the stiletto cab but not sure if it is the same thing.)

I am thinking of doing a wet/dry set up. When I get the second TC-50 I will pair it with the other and run the effects though that and or just use the TC-100 for the effects and leave the 50's dry. It this works out, I may go to a midi controller or G system if and when TC makes an upgrade. I am not interested in the Helix unit. I wonder if there are any isolated switchers out there that could be used as FX loop buffers for a common pedal board setup. I guess it all depends on how I like the TC-100 after I can get my hands on one. I have been thinking for a while, what should I do next. Do I double up on the JP or on the TC? I feel the TC platform has more to offer and is a bit more flexible and scalable than the JP. I really love the JP-2C but I am having so much fun with the TC too.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:24 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 10:58 am
Posts: 5
Thanks for posting some pictures. Looks awesome. He’s the current 4x12 traditional is the same as the 4x12 stiletto. How does the TC50 sound paired with either the Roadster or Mark V? Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:54 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
Not sure if the old stiletto cab is the same as the traditional cab currently offered. I did check out of production products and all I could see what was different from the stiletto cab 412 to the current traditional cab was the piping color around the grill. Considering the differences I have noticed between the 2000 OS Recto 412 cab compared to a 2014 OS Recto 412 is that the metal handles on the sides are tucked into a recessed area as well as the rear speaker jack plate on the new model vs the old one. Before I swapped the V30's in the old recto cab I had issues with flub and horn like tones that was easy to get stuck in with the Mark IV combo. For some reason I believe there are subtle differences to the newer Recto cabs that make a huge difference in their performance. I have never removed the back panel on the newer 412 cab to find out as I would hate to disturb any seals or adhesives that are keeping the back panel from vibrating. As I recall I had struggled to open up the 2000 version, had to pry off the side handles and use a hammer to release the back panel. Almost a night and day difference between the two 412 cabs of the same size. The only traditional sized cab I have is the Egnator cab I re-coned with Celestion G12H75 creambacks. Not bad but I like the V30 a bit more in a closed back cab. The older style OS Recto cabs seem to perform better with EV's loaded in it.

I believe I have paired the TC-50 with all of my amps. I do recall running the Roadster on the horizontal 212 cab in parallel to the TC-50 on the Vertical 212. That definitely had dome depth to the mix. I would have to revisit that to comment further as it has been some time. I was using CH4 Modern with the TC CH3. The TC-50 added the clarity or definition to the mix and lead style playing and harmonics were possible. The Roadster on the other hand tends to cancel the harmonics and some notes on the guitar (12th fret on the G string seems like a dead spot with the Roadster but not with the TC or JP). I am also using some non-stock preamp tubes on V1 and V2 in the Roadster. Been a while since I popped off the shields so I do not remember if they are tung sol , Mullard CV4004 or the Svetlana tubes.

As for a mix of the Mark V and the TC-50. I will have to give that a go as I do not remember doing such. Since I got the JP-2C, I literally cannot stand the tone of the Mark V. I have made some improvements to the V, 12AT7 and removal of one cap. It sounds okay now but not as colossal as the other amps. Also the FX loop on the V is the odd ball. I can get it to work well with the Strymon effects pedals but the other pedals or even the Ebtech LLS-2 seems to dramatically load the loop resulting in tone loss or volume drop. I have not put the V into storage yet and may take a shot at parallel mix with the TC-50.

What I may end up doing is to simulate the rig setup with the two RA100's and see what happens. I have an ABY switcher with isolated output and the P-split so I can make it work. Since the Preamp design is essentially the same with the RA and TC, the phase of each channel remains constant between the TC and RA. It is a bit different with the other amps and one particular channel may end up out of phase with the others. There is a definite phase shift between CH2 and CH3 on the TC-50 (same with the RA)

Considering the JP-2C, I had thought about another one and daisy chaining them. That would be cool but I feel that one JP is enough for me. It works so well as a stand alone amp as it fills the room with more 3D distortion characteristics I easily get lost. Adding another would probably put me into cardiac arrest. I almost got there when I ran the two Vertical cabs with the amp. That amp is a power house for sure. OMG does that amp rock ! Easily scaled back too with just the guitar volume. I do not get into that characteristic with the TC until I pair it up with the RA100. Running the amps out of phase on purpose just makes the sound so alive and 3 dimensional. Just with the clean channel on both amps, TC on drive and the RA gain maxed is one amazing sound. I can almost get into the early classic heavy metal tone, and then on CH2 and lo gain is another trip on the ears. I will have to see how this records and hopefully will capture what I am experiencing. Not sure if the three amp deal will work as I did try this before using the two RA and the TC-50. For some reason, Two amps are better than three. May be the way I had it set up?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:49 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
I rigged up the two RA's with the TC-50. Just as I thought..... Not sure this is a good idea. Three amps in parallel does not a rig make. Also considering what I would probably spend in the short or long term to make it work just seems out of reach. Since all I would need to complete a JP-2C stereo rig is just to add another JP-2C that may be the better route for me. It would cost me less than the two additional TC amps and I already have the two Vertical 212 cabs. So I guess I want the :shock: cardiac arrest setup vs what I thought may be a cool idea. The only grief I have with the JP-2c is the footswitch does not have any control for the FX loop. Either midi control or switch on the front panel. I guess that is not a bad thing as I can always add a midi controller to the set up. I got lost last night after posting as I decided to run the JP-2C. HS is that a sweet amp and it can do the classic rock well but with a slight Mark tone if you roll back on the volume pot on the guitar. This is just a tough thing to be in. Some do not like the JP but I love it. Hmmm what to do next?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
I still believe I the TC-100 may be the better choice over a second JP-2C. One is enough for me. Also you are limited with tube choices with the JP-2C. Considering how the TC-50 was fun to hear the differences between EL34, 6L6, 5881 and the 6V6 there seems to be more of a tonal pallet to choose from. Since I am overjoyed with the blend of the TC-50 and the RA100, perhaps the TC-100 would be similar tone wise to the RA due to larger transformers. Not sure if they are the same magnetics though but look the same in the photos. The JP-2C does tend to run on the dark side with reduced volume. Awesome amp but not scalable excpet for the 60W switch on the back. No matter how much I love the JP-2C I think I would have more mileage ouf ot the TC-100 and if the end results are similar to the RA and TC blend then that would be it. I do like the TC-50 as is but seems to lack something when running by itself. Sounds way better though the Vertical 212 (depth wise) than it does though the OS Recto 412 as it tends to become too bright with that cab. Same can be said for the RA but I have that figured out with preamp tubes. So one idea to another, just a stero rig with the TC-50 and the TC-100? It does not matter, I want the TC-100 anyways. Getting another TC-50 may be a fantasy. At least I have a selection of cabs to choose from, probably will be the Vertical 212 which would then dethrone the JP-2C once again..(this happened when I got the TC-50 and only had one vertical cab, I do have the horizontal but that takes up floor space, and I have to bend down to adjust controls, I am getting old so not bending over or getting on my knees is a good thing to avoid. Interesitng delema here. I can wailt for the TC-100 to come out so no immediate need for another amp at the moment. At least the TC series has the FX loop control on the foot switch. Just thinking of running a quad of 6V6 tubes just sounds tastey it is making me hungry..... bummer there is not stock available anywhere as I checked the Hollywood Mesa store as well as Sweetwater.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Mark II

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:51 am
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How about a simple stereo rig with the TC-100 and TC-50 both on vertical 2x12s? Put different tubes in them. You could do a wet/dry/wet rig with 3 amps but the benefit of wet/dry stuff is that it keeps your dry signal intact. With high quality effects (which I know you use) you really won’t have problems with that anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
That is what I am thinking, just keep it simple. Besides if I wanted to use the DIG and the BigSky that has the two octaves they need to be in parallel to each other and not in series as that gets muddy quick. I like the idea of keeping one amp dry and abuse the other with the Effects. Solos just emerge and do not get lost in the delay repeats. Two verts may be the way to go but that RA100 had some balls to it through the 412 cab so it may not disappear anytime soon.

I will figure something out, and when the TC-100 is going to be on the shelves in the stock room is the waiting game I will have to deal with at the moment.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:13 am 
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The easiest/cheapest way to do wet/dry/wet is with a stereo power amp. Use the head for the dry centre channel, then feed the slave out or FX loop send to a stereo delay that feeds into a stereo power amp. All the switching happens in the master preamp, everything else is just a slave out.

With that in mind, any power amp can be a slave amp. So, you could slave your JP2C and RA off your TC-50 and use the TC-50's preamp to control everything. Doing it this way will generally eliminate the phase issues that can happen when using multiple channel switching preamps in stereo.

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Ignore the hype and trust your ears. Play more, buy less = better tone.

|| McCarty | Les Paul | Custom 24 ||
|| Cantrell Wah | Rotovibe | Phase 90 | Grid Slammer ||
|| Triple Crown 50 | Recto 2x12/4x12 ||

|| Jazz Bass | Bass Strategy | PH410 ||


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:12 am 
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screamingdaisy wrote:
The easiest/cheapest way to do wet/dry/wet is with a stereo power amp. Use the head for the dry centre channel, then feed the slave out or FX loop send to a stereo delay that feeds into a stereo power amp. All the switching happens in the master preamp, everything else is just a slave out.

I did this with my Roadster & Recto 2:100, OS 4X12 dry, flanked by vertical 2X12's for the L/R Wet (fed by the Slave output). It was a ridiculous amount of heavy gear for a local-gigging player, and took up a lot of space.

However.... that set up is an endless amount of fun. If I remember correctly there were some phasing artifacts I needed to deal with, but with the G-Major set to 'Kill Dry', a bit of chorus and Ping-Pong delay can entice school girl giggles in a grown man 8) .

I also tried Stereo, splitting the FX send to L/R through the G-Major, returning Left-Side to the Roadster and Right-Side to one channel of the 2:100. Again, there were some weird phase things going on but still a lot of fun.

I actually gigged with the Stereo version for a few shows, one with two 2X12's, an outdoor show with two OS 4X12's, and a couple with splitting one OS 4X12 to stereo. When I went out front all my stereo 'magic' was lost in the mono FOH mix, with the exception of the outdoor show as we didn't run the instruments through the provided (crappy) PA. Even still, if you didn't stand in the 'sweet spot' you missed the stereo image. I decided it's just not worth the backache for what I do. At home I plug into a Yamaha THR10 with headphones, takes care of the stereo itch.

Dom

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:16 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
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Thanks all, the stereo power amp does sound like a plan. It is quite easy to get a feed from the FX loop as I could use the P-split 2 to supply an isolated output to a stereo effect to drive a stereo power amp. Great idea. The stereo 2:50 would be ideal. Cool that it can use EL34 as well as 6L6.

Just get a rack mount TC-50 and it is done. Of course that may lead to other things too. Do I need to take it that far? Heck yeah. That would give me reason to sell the Mark V once and for all as that thing is taking up floor space that I am running out of. I never really considered the rack mount gear. Now it makes sense. So tempting....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
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Great suggestions. Still want to get the TC-100 in a head format and not the rack mount. That does not mean that a 2:50 would not be out of the question.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:18 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
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Just for kicks, I ran the RA100 in parallel to the JP-2C at full power. Sweet. Of course I was using the OS Recto 412 with the RA100 and the vertical 212 with the JP. I had similar results using the TC-50 in the same setup. Where are the TC100s? Now I really want one. Considering how much I like the RA100 and TC-50 blended together, it is awesome with the two RA100 in parallel as well. I would assume that the TC-50 and the TC-100 would have a similar result. Blending amps together changes everything. Still have not gotten around to running the Mark V with the TC-50. I will see what impression that gives me when I get there.

I am not sure why others do not have the bottom end from the TC-50, I think it has plenty as it is no too much or too little. I did a bit of drop D tunings too and did not find that to be disappointing. I was even looking at a 7 string guitar over the last weekend, in my area there are not too many and all I could find were Schecter guitars (one new and one used), bummer. I will keep looking.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:37 am 
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bandit2013 wrote:
I am not sure why others do not have the bottom end from the TC-50, I think it has plenty as it is no too much or too little.


People who know Mesa's may be reluctant to turn the bass high enough or turn the treble down low enough.

_________________
Ignore the hype and trust your ears. Play more, buy less = better tone.

|| McCarty | Les Paul | Custom 24 ||
|| Cantrell Wah | Rotovibe | Phase 90 | Grid Slammer ||
|| Triple Crown 50 | Recto 2x12/4x12 ||

|| Jazz Bass | Bass Strategy | PH410 ||


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