The Boogie Board

Discussion Forum for Mesa Boogie Products
It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:15 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:40 am 
Offline
Dual Recto
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:18 pm
Posts: 2967
Location: Weinerpeg MB Canada
screamingdaisy wrote:
I generally haven't been a fan of mixing speakers, particularly if they're in the same cab. There's a certain immediacy and clarity when all the speakers match that I prefer.


I find that with matching speakers, certain unpleasant tonal characteristics can predominate. Mixed speakers give more of a 3D and 'stereo' sound to the tone. Unfortunately -as others have mentioned- you often cannot mic one of the speakers anyhow so in a live situation, you only end up with a more finely tuned stage sound.

At the end of the day, often the most niggling and frustrating frequences are simply a result of the room you are playing in. It is no surprise to me that the best tones I've heard out of my rig have always been at outdoor shows!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:05 am 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
I am actually experiencing a 3D effect with matched speakers. The V30 speakers that came in the RA100 combo may have been used by a different amp or same but definitely were not stock or perhaps re-installed based on the solder quality on the terminals, I have yet to see Mesa do a solder job like that. Solder joints on both V30s looked like cold solder joints. Obviously a last ditch effort to restore the amp before sale. Needless to say the tone of the V30 was muddy, very little in the top end and under low gain distortion they lacked the clarity or definition that should have been there. Even with the mixed pair the V30 drowned the tone with its character. Perhaps it would be a different story if both speakers were new. Since I re-installed the second Creamback speaker the amp characteristics have improved 10 fold. Now I have no desire to add another cabinet as the RA100 Combo is near perfect. Talk about a night and day difference, and best of all I can actually dial in different tonal pallets with the tone controls that seemed useless before. (treble and base actually do something). When compared to the Mesa OS Recto, the quad of new speakers have become sharp in the treble department such that I have to dial out the treble on the head. It even sounded bright with the Roadster channeled into it. Definitely need to work those speakers a bit more. The cab sounded dark and sinister and more balanced when I first got it but now has become too bright. I may swap the heads on the two cabs for a while and run the Roadster through the new cab and the RA100 through the old one. I may remove one of the side handles to allow the cab to breath which will allow the speakers to travel more just to get the suspension of the speakers to soften up. Considering how long I have had the cabinet and how much accumulated time is on it, there is probably less than 30 hours of use as I have favored the Roadster most of the time that is driving a 15 year old cab with original speakers (mind you that the original speakers had about the same hours of usage on them when I swapped for EV due to being too bright, I stopped playing for 8 years and did not use the 412 cab much during ownership but I am glad I kept it when I had sold most of my gear, actually thought I was done playing 5 years ago when I moved to NC.)

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:10 pm 
Offline
Donating Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:30 pm
Posts: 2533
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
I ran the RA2x12 cab at rehearsal last night with one V30 and one Creamback. I got the nice sparkly mids, but found the tone to have lost some of the heavy lows. Sounded great at home at lower volume, but when I opened it up it lost the bottom. Normally this happens anyway, but it was more than I remember.

HOWEVER, I was also running a TC Sentry. It is possible that the pedal has a bit of low-cut, though I really hope not, as it works really well and I'd hate to have to junk it for that. On the plus side, I have a nice parametric EQ built into my G System so I can tailor the lows as needed.

So... mixed. I do like the mid sparkle from the Creamback. Much more lively.

_________________
JP-2C WICKER, Baby!
Mini Rectifier blue LED
2x Recto 2x12 Horizontal
2x Recto 2x12 Vertical


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:15 pm 
Offline
Donating Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:57 pm
Posts: 4449
Location: South of Heaven
bandit2013 wrote:
I may remove one of the side handles to allow the cab to breath which will allow the speakers to travel more just to get the suspension of the speakers to soften up.


If this is a Recto 4x12 you're talking about, use the stereo inputs to run the Roadster into half the cab. Feed 100w into two speakers and kick the crap out of them for a couple hours, then repeat for the other side.

_________________
Ignore the hype and trust your ears. Play more, buy less = better tone.

| Les Paul | McCarty | Custom 24 | CE 22 |
| D800 | Dual Rectifier | Electra Dyne | Rectoverb:25 | Strategy 8:88 |
| Powerhouse 410 | Recto 1x12, 2x12, 4x12 | Subway 112, 115 |


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:33 am 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
Yes, the new Recto 412 cab. I decided to go against my "do not break the seal" policy on the new cab and removed one of the side handles. Had to confirm the speakers were actually V30's and not the Filmore speaker (assuming they ran out of V30 and substituted something else, this cab sounds so much different than the other one but age and use on the speakers may be the difference.) 4xV30 inside. I get plenty of bottom end on the clean channel of the RA100, same with the roadster or Mark V. The RA100 head seems to be overly bright on the Hi/Lo channel (the RA100 Combo was no different when connected to the 412.) I did get a feel of the compliance of the speaker cone by carefully moving the cone by hand, was not stiff at all. Played for a little bit with the handle removed and it did not sound any different. Figured it was time to tube roll the RA100 Head in order to obtain a less bright tone. Both the RA100 combo and Head have the same preamp tubes except for the power tubes (Head: SED EL34, combo Tung Sol EL34B). Pulled my box of assorted preamp tubes and removed the chassis. What seemed to work but yet a bit bright, can be tailored with the tone controls with more effect, were the Mullard Reissue 12AX7 on the gain channel tubes V1 and V2. I cycled though many tubes and found the Mullards worked the best overall. V4 and V5 (input and gain stages for the clean channel) I installed the Mullard CV4004, for the reverb Mullard reissue 12ax7, PI stock mesa 12AX7 and V3 is stock Mesa 12AT7. The Mullard RI 12AX7 has less gain (long plate) than the medium plate version CV4004 (similar to TS12ax7 but only in plate structure, also comparable to the Mesa (JJ) short plate tube.) Now I have more bottom end a bit more roll of on the top and more overall balance. Improved the detail with higher gain settings. That was an easy fix. 8)

Image

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:26 am 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
The Creamback G12H-75 are a perfect match for the RA100 Combo. They are not however a good match to the Roadster as the tone took on a nasal character. I do not recall if I tried the mix of creamback and V30 with the roadster. I would not recommend the G12H-75 for use with a Rectifier amp. I am not really sure I like the V30 with the Roadster, it sounds good but I get tired of hearing it after a while. The new rectifier cab sounds great but the old one definitely does not win me over due to the changes I had to make to the baffle board support as it lost its particular resonance. I think I may stuff the EV back into the old cab just to have something different and put the old V30 in the small traditional size Egnator cab. Nothing special about the Egnator cabinet except it was relatively low cost and met for a budget I was willing to spend. I should have taken the custom cab route, perhaps I will someday.

Last note: if you have a RA100 combo, definitely consider the Celestion G12H-75 creamback, either mixed with a V30 or a complete pair as they perform quite well in the combo.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:42 pm 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
:cry: I can really seal a cabinet quite well, could not get it apart. Oh well.... V30 it will be for now. A quick tube roll in the Roadster cured my need to change speakers. Now that all of my amps are up, running and sounding great I will have a difficult time choosing what to play first. I need to focus on the RA100 Combo as the speakers are still green, not to mention the change I made to the Mark V combo. Life is good.... 8)

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:27 am 
Offline
Mark I

Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:05 pm
Posts: 30
elvis wrote:
So glad that worked for you! Now I'm definitely converting my RA2x12. I was turned on to that combination by thumbpick. It seemed crazy at the time, but it's potent.


Heart = warmed. :)

_________________
Current Project
http://www.kindlerband.com

Amps:
Mesa/Boogie RA-100 Royal Atlantic head
Mesa/Boogie Rectifier 2x12 cab

Pedals:
Eventide, Xotic, FX Eng, TC, Strymon

Guitars:
Suhr, Gibson, Washburn electrics
Martin, Steven Walter acoustics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:57 am 
Offline
Mark III

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:54 pm
Posts: 245
I have been debating a few options to open up the tone of my Royal Atlantic. Speakers are the first option I want to look at. I currently run the Road King 2x12 cab (V30/C90), and I always mic the V30 to send to front of house. As many have stated with their experience, I get a ton of midrange and the highs seems more to choked a bit. I like a "glassier" top end shimmer without getting harsh. It pleases me to hear so many good things about the cream backs to tame the mids, but my only concern it a loss of too much mid range. I play more aggressive rock (i.e. Beartooth, Underoath etc.) in both drop C and A# tunings. I still want the speaker to be tight and have enough inherent mid range to be articulate. I usually run a Grid Slammer in front as a clean boost to keep things tight on vintage Lo and hi. I know fluff did some videos on the cream backs and they sounded great, but the V Type seems to be less of a departure from V30s but with some added top end and a slightly smoother midrange. Should I swap the v30 for the cream back, or would something like the V Type better suit my needs?

_________________
Past Amps:
2004 Mesa Triple Rectifier
2000 Mesa Nomad 100
2009 Mesa Electra Dyne
2012 Mesa RA-100
2012 Mesa Mark V
2007 Mesa Stiletto Deuce II
2014 Rectoverb 25 Head
PRS Archon 50 Head

Current Amp:
2014 Mesa RA-100


Guitar Cab:
Mesa Road King 2x12


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:13 am 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
That is a difficult one to answer DWAKO since you have two different speakers already. What would I do in your situation? Not really sure.

I have experimented with many different speaker options. What I found with the RA100 Combo is that the pair of V30 got muddy as the speaker enclosure is not sealed. The V30 performs best in a sealed enclosure. The converse is true about the MC90. I generally love to push the bass to get that bottom end grind but yet want to have a good tone for palm muted notes. With the G12H75 Creamback I have better balance of the highs and lows with plenty of midrange that compliments the RA100 amp. After I installed a Jensen Blackbird in my Mark V combo, I was overwhelmed how it transformed that amp into a new favorite. I have tried the RA100 Combo with the Jensen speaker, not bad but still prefer the Creamback. However, I have thought about the Celestion Cream (90W alnico) paired with a Jensen Jet BlackBird (100W alnico). Having two different voice coil diameters will definitely change the tonal range. At this point I will not recommend it as this may be a disaster as I have not tried the Celestion Cream (I have read good and bad reviews but may depend on what amp is used and how the speaker is broken in). Not really sure what would work for you.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:40 pm 
Offline
Mark III

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:54 pm
Posts: 245
To me, the C90 adds a depth and fullness to the tone but as a result never really shines in the forefront along side a speaker like the V30. You probably know this but, the V30 is still completely a closed back cab, it's isolated from the open back side. And I agree, the C90 shines with an open back cabinet. In some situations, depending how loud I crank it, I'll just run the V30 side by itself and mic it up. It's not that the V30 is bad, it's been my go to speaker for years, but I feel for this amp in particular, there might be a better option. I haven't gone the tube route yet either, I might try swapping a few things there as well.

_________________
Past Amps:
2004 Mesa Triple Rectifier
2000 Mesa Nomad 100
2009 Mesa Electra Dyne
2012 Mesa RA-100
2012 Mesa Mark V
2007 Mesa Stiletto Deuce II
2014 Rectoverb 25 Head
PRS Archon 50 Head

Current Amp:
2014 Mesa RA-100


Guitar Cab:
Mesa Road King 2x12


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:49 am 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
Well, for tubes, there is not much to gain or loose with preamp tube changes. The Hi/lo gain channel will become more sensitive and feed back will set in depending on what preamp tube you use in V1 and V2 (only tubes used for the Hi/lo channel gain chain). As for the clean channel the tone becomes deeper (V4 and V5). There may be some slight change in tone with V3 (NOS 12AT7 can definitely make a subtle change, I like the RFT12aT7) There is also the PI tube V7 that may get you more bite with a long plate 12ax7. The only real substantial change is in the power tubes. As it seems the final solution would be the speakers with the RA100 as the amp does not take a dramatic twist with preamp tube changes like a Mark V. Perhaps it has something to do with the tone stack, I would love to get my hands on the schematics for the RA100, the Roadster too.

What I like about the G12H-75 creamback is the relative similarity the 2x12 (open back) in comparison to the V30 loaded recto 412. I get a similar tone but not as bright as the 412. Before with two V30 in the combo, it generated mudd at higher volumes and moderate gain setting. Both RA100 head and combo sound the same thought the 412 cabinet so there are no differences between the two amps. It has been such a long time since I had a working MC90, for some reason they do not last very long for me.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:25 am 
Offline
Mark III

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:54 pm
Posts: 245
I might just throw a Tung Sol in the V1 position to see if it changes anything. I've considered trying 6L6s in the power section, I know some who have tried it didn't find much benefit. However, I am looking to get more modern tone out of it, so it might be worth it. Re-watching the Haggerty's comparison video has me liking the open-ness found in the 6L6s, a little more recto-like. Anyways, not too hijack the thread, the Creambacks are very temping to try out. All of the demo videos I've heard has me strongly considering them.

_________________
Past Amps:
2004 Mesa Triple Rectifier
2000 Mesa Nomad 100
2009 Mesa Electra Dyne
2012 Mesa RA-100
2012 Mesa Mark V
2007 Mesa Stiletto Deuce II
2014 Rectoverb 25 Head
PRS Archon 50 Head

Current Amp:
2014 Mesa RA-100


Guitar Cab:
Mesa Road King 2x12


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:54 am 
Offline
Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2507
Location: North Carolina
If you want to listen to something comparable to the G12H75 Creamback, take a look at the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W. I ordered one yesterday to install into my Mark V. I will also use the RA100 though it to compare to the G12H75 creambacks. I made an extention speaker cable with a jack on the end so I can use the cabinet speaker with other amps. I do love the Jensen Jet Black Bird but it tends to bark with high gain and moderate bass. Similar to the V30 fart but this seems to be dependent on power tubes (most of what I have for the Mark V is basically worn out so need new tubes). I will try to record something before I swap speakers but will wait for new tubes to come in.

Note about the RA100 circuitry...

Hi/Lo channel uses the following tube sequence:
V1A = 1st gain stage Hi/Lo
V1B = hi 2nd gain stage
V2A = lo 2nd gain stage
V2B= hi/lo tone control drive

Clean channel uses the following tube sequence:
V4A = 1st gain stage clean
V4B = 2nd gain stage clean
V5A = 3rd gain stage clean
V5B = not used

Shared tubes:
V3A/B = effects loop (12AT7)
V6A/B = reverb
V7A/B = phase inverter driver

Just change in V1 to tung sol will not do much for the clean channel but will effect the Hi/Lo channel only. Odd that the manual does not indicate where in the tube chain the tone drive circuit is for the clean. I do not believe there is a cathode follower in the RA as I have used Russian tubes in V2 without issue.
In essence, there are two primary valves (V1 for the Hi/lo, V4 for the clean). You can actually pull V1 and V2 and still have the amp operate in clean channel with no ill effects, convers is true if you pull V4 and V5, (must have V1 and V2 installed) and operate the Hi/Lo channel without issue. I did like the tone of the Tung Sol in V1 or in V2, I have even used a Mullard reissue (Long plate) in V1. Actually I have tried several combinations of different tubes in both V1 and V2. I also believe there is a voltage shift between the Hi and Lo setting as I have heard a ping from the Mullard when used in the V1 circuit (Long plate tubes tend to do this with a sudden change in plate voltage when changing modes, not always but is more common with long plate preamp tube).

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:51 pm 
Offline
Mark III

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:54 pm
Posts: 245
I'm honestly quite content with the clean channel, it's the gain channels, mainly Vintage Hi, I would prefer to have a more open top end glass/presence. Of course I come from using a Mark V and Stiletto which are naturally quite bright. But the tube layout is super helpful in knowing where it's best to invest my money. Thanks! If I do end up purchasing some speakers, I'll be sure to record the differences.

_________________
Past Amps:
2004 Mesa Triple Rectifier
2000 Mesa Nomad 100
2009 Mesa Electra Dyne
2012 Mesa RA-100
2012 Mesa Mark V
2007 Mesa Stiletto Deuce II
2014 Rectoverb 25 Head
PRS Archon 50 Head

Current Amp:
2014 Mesa RA-100


Guitar Cab:
Mesa Road King 2x12


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group