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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:35 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Have been searching online to find some topics about this match but no luck so far.

I have already placed the items into an online cart in order to build DIY 1x12 cabinet with Celestion Cream 90w (AlNiCo). However i am still not sure because it would be a bit pricey tryout, it is the most expensive speaker in the Celestion lineup.Also i have never heard this model (Cream 90W) how it sounds (if i don't count youtube videos, but not paired with ED). The worst part, in the country i live in for the time beeing it is not a possibility to purchase this speaker, so online shiping so additional import customs and tax will be applied. I guess enough with the intro which started to feel more like whining on my part.

Has anyone had experience by pairing Electra Dyne and Celestion Cream AlNiCo 90W, if yes could you please share some thoughts?

Non-experience (absence of this exact pairing) opinions are also welcomed.

I have already hear some negative opinions that this would not be a good match, ED is not a vintage amp and the AlNiCo is vintage speaker yada yada (this was one of those non-experienced opinion)

Thanks
Marjan


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:38 pm 
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Donating Member
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Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:30 pm
Posts: 2533
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
I've tried the Dyne with a bunch of speakers. It sounds great to me through V30 in a closed back cab, but also as a 1x12 combo with C90. I suspect it would sound great through anything.

I disagree about the "vintage" speaker vs. amp comment. Many people play modern amps through "vintage" speakers like V30, 25W greenback and G12T-75. Creambacks and similar speakers are very popular.

Plus I would argue that the Dyne is a quite vintage-sounding amp. To me it is like a Blackface Twin clean plus a Marshall Plexi. The blue channel is quite "vintage" sounding for sure.

Last year I bought several amps, speakers and cabinets and tried a lot of combinations before I found what works best for me. Unfortunately, there really isn't a way around that. You have to take some risk I think.

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Electra Dyne Head
JP-2C WICKER, Baby!
Mini Rectifier blue LED
Recto 2x12 Horizontal
2x Recto 2x12 Vertical


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:34 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Hello Elvis,

Damn, i did check the box to notify my via email and yet no email was received. So i decided to check the forum just now as i though, oh well no answer.

Thank you very much for your reply. I find your post useful and i agree with you you got to spend $ to try the best fit for the subjective ear.

In the mean time i have build an external cabinet with just a regular plywood. I have made the option to be modular, if i decide to have an open back i can do just that with unscrewing several bolts. I just want to do a test run how would affect the sound with a close cabinet configuration. This motivation came from trying the amp on an Electrovoice 18" speaker (with just one small whole in the front). To my surprise many of the issues i had experienced due to the small studio room, unwanted bass frequencies or when the volume pot on the guitar is fully down and the amp is cranked up there was a noise feedback that the amp was producing on it's own. This last happened even when i unplug the cable to break the guitar-amp connection, that same noice-feedback happened. Also i couldn't set the bass past 9-10 when playing with the band (due to too much bass)....so all of this was not happening when i used the 18" EV cabinet (btw this 18" EV cabinet is matched for a bass head Acoustic B320 i bought several months ago). So i decided to test it with the black shadow with the new cabinet i have build. I would say i felt mixed emotions from satisfactory to a bit disappointing. Satisfaction that my assumptions were correct to fix all the issues. Disappointed, (well it is a strong word as i love this amp) because by design it seams that it would have been better for this amp to be with a closed back (but that is just my limited opinion and i guess the issue of the fact that is used in a small space, but some of the issues occurred on a large stage as well). One more thing especially for recordings, with the external cab i no longer have the sound that is generated from the vibrations of the speaker through the tubes (i come to love this sound but for some parts in a recording i wish it's not there).

So now that i have made a proof of concept i think am going forward with the purchase of Cream AlNiCo and see what happens. No other option but to spend some $.

Btw i would love to repack the amp into a ED head, if you know someone that would like to sell only a shell of an Electra dyne head i would go for it (of course for reasonable price), i know i would have to face invert pots but that is not an issue.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:44 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2252
Location: North Carolina
I am currently running the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W in a Mark V combo. You will gain a little bit of warmth to your clean sound (hence the vintage tone), however, I am loving this speaker with the Mark V in all aspects channels and volume levels. The speaker is not too bright but will cut though the mix and not too dark but will provide a tight low end similar to an EV but yet has more tonal ranges of mixing EV with V30. Really hard to pinpoint how it sounds. I did have a clip on soundcloud recorded with an SM57 but deleted it for a new song I posted. The track I added was recorded with the Mark V but thought an attenuator and I did not mic the speaker. I reloaded the old recording. I was using the Mark IV mode in CH3 with a low gain setting.

https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/m ... icomkivwav

Before all of this, I had an EVM12L Black Label in the combo. Got tired of it as it seemed a bit sterile. Moved over to a Jensen Jet Blackbird Alnico and was impressed but seemed to have some issues with elevated volume levels (did not fart but sort of did, more of a low end burp) so I opted to install this in a small 50W combo amp. I decided on the Celestion Crème Alnico 90W as a last resort and I am glad I did. The Mark V combo never sounded better, at any power setting, any volume. To be honest, I was fed up with the Mark V and preferred using my RA100 or Roadster more. Now I have really bonded with the Mark V and love it just as much if not more than the other two amps.

Yes, it is expensive for a speaker, to me it was worth every penny I paid. I was actually willing to part with my Mark V but not anymore. I did watch the demo video of the Electra Dyne and I believe the Alnico Crème 90W would serve you well. There may be other alternatives such as a Scumback SC75 Scumnico as you have options for voice coil wattages.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:42 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Interesting story with a "live happily ever after". It turn out the speaker was the missing ingredient to make that relationship work :)

All kidding aside, yours was an experience which i find good and quality read.
Yes the speaker is pricey a bit, well the most expensive in the Celestion 12" lot, but from what i have heard and read so far it is forth the try, especially considering your experience.

Thanks for the sound cloud URL.

P.S
To which ED demo video are you referring to, just curious.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:38 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2252
Location: North Carolina
Video demo done by Marcus Daniel found in the out of production folder on Mesa website. He is using a head with a 412 cab.
http://mesaboogie.com/support/out-of-pr ... -dyne.html

As for my soundcloud clip, it is close to reality as a sm57 can provide. Not exactly the true sound as the mic does have a frequency response. It has been too long since I recorded it such that I may have used two mics.

I have placed a link on my trial of the Celestion Crème ALNICO 90W below. Note that I just removed a Jensen Blackbird ALNICO speaker and was still attached to its tonal character in the beginning. Blackbird is not a bad speaker but did seem to have low end breakup at elevated volumes which I found disturbing at times. As it turns out, it was a result of bad power tubes or a faulty PI tube. However, the Black bird did not respond as well to high gain signal but sounded incredible with clean. The Celestion Crème on the other hand was ideal for the full gain range similar to the EV character but yet did not become bass heavy for clean or low volume playing. Early on before I installed the Jensen, I did try to reuse the MC90 but it too had some issues as it was a used speaker that came in the combo shell, the dust cap fell off of it and regluing did not make it sound any better. I kept the magnet and the rest went into the trash. I believe I may have damaged it with the Mark IV combo as this was a speaker killer amp which I sold before I started chasing the speaker balloon with the Mark V. To date, I still have the Celestion Crème ALNICO 90W in my Mark V. From all of the speakers I have tried even with my other amps, the Celestion Crème ALNICO90 is my favorite with the simul-class power section of the Mark V. I have hooked up the speaker to the Roadster and RA100 just to hear it (ran them at 50W) but had to convince myself not to buy 4 to build up a 412 cab as this would be too expensive.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=71480

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:33 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Hi again,

Well thanks for participating in this post. I appropriate it very much. Btw, that demo video i have seen it when i was forming the decision of purchasing the ED. However all the videos and audios i have heard was far away from when i heard the amp live. I guess that is why we go to live gigs :)

Regarding the SM 57 i have found from my limited experience that it is a very good mic and captures a very realistic image. This was until i performed a side by side test with Sennheiser MD 441. I know they are in totally different mic class (price difference is huge). Having that in mind i do still use the SM 57 for recordings. Usually as a second mic and also when recording drums.

Your post you'we mentioned, was one of the first things i have read when i started researching the Cream AlNiCo :)
And yes it would be one expensive speaker cabinet with 4x12 of these speakers.

I intend to build a second external speaker cabinet for the AlNiCo, but i would still use the Black Shadow that comes with the ED i might even return it inside the amp combo and have the AlNiCo as external only. But if i ever come around of a head shell for ED am sure i would migrate toward that direction, head + 2 external cabinets (or i might do 2x12 cab).


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:34 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2252
Location: North Carolina
One more detail I forgot about until after posting the last message.

Break-in Period and change in speaker characteristic. The Celestion Crème Alnico 90W did not seem to require break-in like the Jensen Jet Blackbird, or the WGS BlackHawk HP100. Meaning I was able to operate the amp in clean and distorted / gain settings. The Celestion Crème has remained quite stable in character and stills sounds as great as the day I installed it. The Jensen on the other hand was not very happy with high gain or overly distorted signal until it was broken in. Tonal change of the Jensen was not all that dramatic either but did change somewhat due to less compliance on the suspension of the cone and spider allowed for more bass response as well as mids. It is a good speaker but I prefer the Celesiton. WGS BlackHawk HP100 did not serve well after it was broken-in. It took on a honky tone and is no longer in use (not even with the small 50W practice amp I have : Carvin V3MC). I would have tried the Scumback as the next resort if the Celestion did not satisfy me. Another thing to point out with ALNICI vs Ceramic is that the speaker response will be more forward in the pick attack. This is part due to the voice coil, sensitivity, paper doping, speaker suspension and magnet strength (yeah there are others; air gap, flux density, coil wire shape and material, coil material, driver venting, and so on....) First thing I noticed with the Jensen and Celestion ALNICO was the pick response. One character the RA100 has that the Roadster and Mark V were lacking was forward reaction to pick attack. Yes, the RA100 is driving ceramic magnet speakers. The most noticed lag in pick attack speaker is the EV. Large magnets do not always provide the best response, close in the running with lag was the V30 and a Fane Studio 12L (sold the Mark IV combo with this speaker installed, sort of miss it). MC90 was similar. If you were to combine a pair of speakers that are unmatched in terms of response time you will notice it. May be good or bad or unnoticed. I have mixed V30 and EV, sounded good but there was a different response time between the two.

One other thing, relative to the other two ALNICO speakers I have tried, the Celestion weighs more than the other two. Close in weight to the V30.

As for a closed back cab, I would opt for one that is convertible (removable panel for open back use). I have not tried the Celestion Crème in a sealed cabinet yet so not sure how it would preform. Some speakers sound great in sealed cabs and some do not (converse can be true in the opposite direction). For example, the V30 performs best in a sealed cab but tends to flub with excess midrange in an open back cab. Look at the speaker spec for application or type of cabinet to use for best results.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:37 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Thank you very much for this last post. Some great analytical data is present there. Its a good thing then i made this first cabinet modular open/close back wise


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:13 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2252
Location: North Carolina
I hope it works for you. I only responded as there are similarities to the Dyne and the Mark V in terms of power tube section. The obvious is the Celestion Crème that I have in my V combo. I suspect the Crème will sound great in both open or closed cabinet. It would also work well in a Thiele type cab as it does have full range tone characteristics that will rival the EV speaker but yet has a more mids to offer but not as compressed as the V30. Top end is there too but not shrill like the V30 or EV can provide. Not as much rounding off of the top end like the Jensen Blackbird but similar.

I would like to hear about your experience with the speaker when you get it, how does it compare to the MC90, when you run in parallel (using the 4 ohm jacks for MC90 and Crème). I think I need to change the EV in my extension cab to something else. Tempted to replace the G12H75 cremebacks to two 16 ohm Crème Alnico's That would be sweet for my RA100.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:26 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Sure thing, once i have the speaker (have to purchase it online and wait for shipping, don't have it anywhere in the country i live in, so shipping and additional tax would be included, it is what it is).
I will order the 8ohm version so i can set the amp at 8ohm when using just the one speaker, and set the amp to 4ohm when using two 8ohm speakers, i think i will not be in the need of 16ohm version cream.

I hope you would see to your temptation, if you do report back what happened.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:01 pm 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2252
Location: North Carolina
Only use a 16 ohm if you pair it with another of the same impedance in parallel for 8 ohm load, or if you amp can handle 16 ohm loads as Mesa amps are typically 8 ohms / 4 ohms with the exception of some of the Rectifier amps. However for the RA100 Combo, it uses two 16 ohm speakers connected in parallel.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:15 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Well my amp has a switch in the back for 8ohm and 4ohm. Considering that it also has two inputs for speakers the 4 ohm setup switch allows me to have an 2x8 ohm speakers (black shadow is 8ohm), that will ultimately deliver a 4ohm impedance. Having this in mind, purchasing an 8ohm speaker in this case wouldn't be a better option?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:59 am 
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Dual Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 2252
Location: North Carolina
Yes, you should get an 8 ohm speaker for the 1x12 cabinet. You will also need to use the 4 ohm setting if you plan to run both the extension cab and the combo speaker at the same time. If you opt to run just the combo speaker or the extension cab by itself, use the 8 ohm setting. Never run less than 4 ohm total load on the amp as this will damage the output transformer with the load switch set to 4 ohms, same applies for the other switch position; never run less than 8 ohm total load on the amp with the switch set to 8 ohm load.

The Electra Dyne and the RA100 only have two output jacks and a impedance switch. Both jacks are connected in parallel and the load switch indicates what the total load on the amp is to be.

There is more information here.
http://mesaboogie.com/media/User%20Manu ... 091007.pdf

In my case I would need a pair of 16ohm speakers to replace the speakers in RA100 combo as it is a 2x12, speakers are wired in parallel, so the total load is 8 ohms that plugs into the back of the amp. I can also hook up an 8 ohm extension cab (another 2x12, 412 or 1x12) and use the 4 ohm load setting on the back of the amp. I can also run two 412, two 1x12 or two 2x12 cabs using both jacks using the 4 ohm load setting (all cabinets must be 8 ohms each), combo speaker is unplugged and not used. Only time you should ever use both jacks and the switch set to 8 ohms is if your cabinets are both 16 ohm each.

_________________
Current amps:
TC-50, JP-2C, MK V, Roadster, RA100
Old friends I sometimes miss:
Mk III (blue stripe), Mark IVb-WB


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:19 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:19 am
Posts: 14
Thanks. I already did a tryout session with two 8 ohm speakers into 4 ohm setting as the amp holds the jacks in parallel conection, also i did study electronics in high school so i know that if i reduce the reaistor by the lowest required the power consumption goes up and not a good thing will come out of :). I asked because you've mentioned 16ohm specifically, i know i can run with that load in the safe limits but was thinking there was something else as a reason behind your advice.


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