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jdurso

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I know this has been discussed ad nauseum but I've scoured this forum as well as a plethora of other sites looking to see how to best tame the volume of this amp. Just to clarify before i say anything else, I'm not necassarily talking about wanting to push the power amp more to get MORE poweramp gain, in fact the thing i love about the ED is the insane amount of headroom, especially on the cleans. I also don't expect the ED or any other high wattage amp to perform at bedroom levels... I've never expected that and personally I've only ever owned high wattage amps because I like the ability to turn it up and shake the room and be able to compete with an entire band while jamming/gigging.

So with that said, the one thing that still leaves me scratching my head is how quickly this amp reaches those gigging volumes. With my Roadster I was always able to get the preamp set to the tone I was after and use the output (master volume) to determine how loud the amp was since the power section had so much clean headroom without much power tube coloration/compression. Now granted, the ED is a different design altogether and seems to have a lot more play going on between the pre and power amp sections, but since it still does have a master volume, I'm puzzled as to why it goes from 0-60 so quickly where all the other Boogies I've owned have a more gradual increase in volume before you get to stage levels.

This is what mainly lead me on a search for some way to tame the volume to where I can get moderately loud (note that I'm not talking bedroom levels, but also not stage levels) without shaking my entire house. What I will say before anything else is that I have the wide combo with a Scumback h75 installed, so the speaker and cabinet design maybe contributing to the insane bass coupling I'm getting (my house's foundation is a crawl and all the floors are hardwood so thise could be contributing as well). What I'm after, to me at least, seems fairly reasonable and very achievable I'm just not sure what the best/cheapest way to go about it... hence why I'm turning to you guys :D

What I'd want ideally is the tone I get when the master is up at about 9:30 (all other settings remain the same) but with the volume i get when the master is around 8. With the volume is around 8 on the ED it was around the same volume on my Roadster with the Output around 9:30, which for me is where the amp starts to open up yet is not at the levels needed to compete with a drummer and is definitely not bedroom levels. I am open to the idea that the speaker paired with the ED and the fact that its a combo compared to the Roadster through my Basson 2x12 is a contributing difference but I've tried the ED through the Basson only and if anything it maybe louder. So here are some of the ideas I'm throwing around:

1. Attenuator: To me the idea of an attentuator is when you desire to run the amp louder to get more power amp saturation which is not really what I want. I like the headroom I get, especially with the master around 9:30 but with less volume. Maybe an attenuator could nail this exactly for me but I'm not sold given I wasn't thrilled with using attenuators in the past. Plus you are working the amp harder which puts more wear and tear on the amp/tubes. Plus from what I've owned and read about, unless you're ready to drop some serious dime on the Rivera Rock Crusher, Ultimate Attenuator or Aracom Power Rox, you're not getting the tone you'd want/expect. The Weber looks like a good bang for your buck but I'd really like to explore other alternatives first.

2. Power Scaling: I started reading up on the London Power Scaling and the Hall's VVR and this looks like something closer to what I'm imagining especially if its wired to power scale the whole amp instead of just the power section. They also seem to be relatively cheap options between parts and the labor of a good tech. It also seems to be a good option since it claims you'd be running your tubes more efficiently which when compared to an attenuator is a plus to me. The one thing I'm leary of (and this could be from a point of ignorance), it still seems to be for someone who's after power amp clipping/saturation, rather than someone whose just looking to kill some dBs without killing the tone. The other downside is, in many ways its a permenant mod to the amp... if it works for the person thats great but if not, well then that really sucks. The one question I have is how close is this option to the RA's power scaling?

3. Speakers: This seems to be the easiest thing to change, whether it be going back to stock (c90) or looking at alternatives that have some sort of built in attenuaion. The Eminence Reignmaker and Maverick seem to be pretty good options considering i'm not looking for bedroom level volume reduction but I'm not sure how much i'll like the speakers tone which to me is more important than whether it can drop 8-9 dbs. If I were to go that direction i'd like something with a voicing more similar to the c90 so the Maverick seems closer of the two. The other option I've seen is the Fluxtone which from everything I've read and heard is the real deal but it also comes with a price and some extra hardware to mount somewhere. the Eminence speakers are a very clean replacement... the fluxtone would require a little more work that i'm not sure I'd be able to do plus they carry a hefty price ($600-900 per speaker).

4. Ditch the combo - Most of the EDs I've played have been combos and I really never noticed the loudness issue until i brought mine home. Again, I'm not running the stock speaker but maybe the combo is inherently "bigger" sounding than say a head with a different cabinet design than the combo. Maybe something like a head and a ported 1x12 cab with the right speaker would better tame the low end and overall percieved volume since it will be more directional than the combo. Not completely sold on that idea, just throwing it out there to see what others have experienced going from combo to head.

5. Volume Reduction in the Loop - One thing I tried many moons ago was an EQ pedal in the loop where I would basically reduce the preamp signal being fed to the power amp. these seemed to work pretty well but I was only experimenting with it then and never really used that method a lot. i read someone here was doing something similar with another device. i know EHX has something similar and calling it an attenuator but its basically just a volume reduction pedal. Could be the cheapest way to achieve what I want whether it be that bedal or an EQ (i could even try this with my AXE-FX before I sell it).

6. Modding the Gain Trim - Not even sure if this would do what I'm thinking but could the Gain trim be modded to trim all three modes at the same time. I ask because when I get the Master to about 9:30 and start trimming the gain on each channel individually it seems to get close to what I'm after but this will only be for one channel. It maybe redundant, but if that acted more like a global trim or if an additional trim was added as a global trim (in addition to the gain trim), that could work for what I'm thinking. But the more I think about it the more that ressembles #5, just built into the amp.

Honestly I see myself with this amp for a LONG time so I'm open to just about anything (even just returning it to stock with a c90 and playing it in a well padded room). What i don't want to do is try all these expensive options to just figure out its as simple as a pedal in the loop (~$40-50) or something like the Eminence Maverick (~$120).

One last thing... has anybody investigated the guts of the ED and the RA and done a comparison? I'm wondering how different these amps really are from one another. Are they so different that someone couldn't figure out how to implement the power scaling of the RA in the ED? The designs maybe so radically different that its not wise or feasible but it maybe worth asking the question.
 
stephen sawall said:
:D If I am not getting the sound I want at whatever dB's I use a other amp...

While I tend to agree with that I haven't found the amp you speak of so outside of controlling the one I have, i'm not sure thats a solution at the moment :D
 
The method I've settled on is a variac... I know, changes tone with volume, but I had it just to go brown and found that it works much better than the master as a volume control at those house friendly levels.
 
I've tried the ED on some 4x12's and it's harder to control the volume, the combo is much easier to deal with.

I've tried the THD hotplate but that was a waste of time IMHO. I found that by just being very careful with the master volume I could achieve the same results.

For me, I have an OD pedal on all the time at home to give me the gain I like from the amp.

One thing you can do is use a processer in the FX loop and use it's volume to control the overall output, and I don't think it hurts the tone at all.

I had my last ED at Andy Fuchs shop for service and I mentioned the volume issue with this amp and he said something like that is an easy fix, so I'm not sure if anyone else out there has done any mods to the amp. The one thing that may make modding tough is the master volume pot controls all 3 modes so anyone modding it may have to get creative.
 
Controlling the loudness of any amp is a huge **** headache.

The mc90 is a super efficient speaker but it also has a really round / chunky / and phat tone that, in my opinion, really pairs up well with the Electra Dyne. It's a lot more round and less piercing / aggressive which is something you may like. I found that with my 27" 1 x 12, the tone is good with the master around 8:00 and it only gets better around gig levels which you already approach as early as 8:30 - 9:00. Yes, the master does come up fast. I think the point is so that you can overdrive the poweramp on the 45watt mode, something which starts to kick in with the master at around 10:00. Can you try an mc90 without spending $130??

I think like all tube amps, you need to turn up to 9:00 to get that 9:00 tone. Of course, if this is on the 90 watt mode it will sound even more huge and chunky!

In my experience, there are several things that contribute to the massive perceived volume, mostly the huge low end and the very bright / present midrange. I find turning up the treble and turning down the mids really helps to control both of these things but the result is a stiffer feel and a brighter and more aggressive tone. If the scumback is already an aggressive speaker, you probably will not find this to your liking.

I haven't played around with a reignmaker but this is a solution I had contemplated trying with my Recto. For $250+, I was always hesitant. It is not so expensive as fluxtone (which looks like an incredible technological advance) but still a lot, especially since I loved the 1 x 12 already. I have not had any problems with this cab so I have not wasted anymore $$$$s on gear since I got it.

If I was still looking for a low volume solution I think trying the 27" 1 x 12 extension cab with a reignmaker would be cool. The only potential annoying thing is the low efficiency / vintage vibe, high efficiency / modern vibe dichotomy that people have complained about. In my estimation, this speaker would yield more tones as opposed to more volume control options.
 
YellowJacket said:
Controlling the loudness of any amp is a huge **** headache.

The mc90 is a super efficient speaker but it also has a really round / chunky / and phat tone that, in my opinion, really pairs up well with the Electra Dyne. It's a lot more round and less piercing / aggressive which is something you may like. I found that with my 27" 1 x 12, the tone is good with the master around 8:00 and it only gets better around gig levels which you already approach as early as 8:30 - 9:00. Yes, the master does come up fast. I think the point is so that you can overdrive the poweramp on the 45watt mode, something which starts to kick in with the master at around 10:00. Can you try an mc90 without spending $130??

I think like all tube amps, you need to turn up to 9:00 to get that 9:00 tone. Of course, if this is on the 90 watt mode it will sound even more huge and chunky!

In my experience, there are several things that contribute to the massive perceived volume, mostly the huge low end and the very bright / present midrange. I find turning up the treble and turning down the mids really helps to control both of these things but the result is a stiffer feel and a brighter and more aggressive tone. If the scumback is already an aggressive speaker, you probably will not find this to your liking.

I haven't played around with a reignmaker but this is a solution I had contemplated trying with my Recto. For $250+, I was always hesitant. It is not so expensive as fluxtone (which looks like an incredible technological advance) but still a lot, especially since I loved the 1 x 12 already. I have not had any problems with this cab so I have not wasted anymore $$$$s on gear since I got it.

If I was still looking for a low volume solution I think trying the 27" 1 x 12 extension cab with a reignmaker would be cool. The only potential annoying thing is the low efficiency / vintage vibe, high efficiency / modern vibe dichotomy that people have complained about. In my estimation, this speaker would yield more tones as opposed to more volume control options.


Speaking of the 1x12 cab. I posted this on the Atlantic forum but no one chimed in.


I have a Royal head incoming and I think I'm set on which cab I'll get which is the 1x12 with the MC90. Right now I own an Electra Dyne 1x12 combo with an MC90 and I used to own the 2x12 version with 2 V30's. I swear, there's not much difference at all between them. If anything, I prefer the 1x12 since it seems slightly darker to me than the 2x12. And the bass in the 1x12 is just killer. I'm basing this off the fact that the combo's use the same wooden box as the cabinets.

And one thing I don't get is the price jump between the cabs, $439 versus $620. They're the same cabinet with just one more speaker. Looks like I'll save myself close to $200. I guess if you're a fan of mixing speakers then the 2x12 makes sense.
 
I don't find the ED's volume jump any worse than other Mesa amps with the master output bypassed. When the only method of controlling the volume on a Recto is the channel master it goes from off to moderately loud somewhere between 8:00 and 8:01 on the dial. It's that second master volume knob that lets you dial in the low volumes easily, and its that knob that the ED lacks. This isn't an attempt to make an excuse for Mesa... only to state that I don't find the volume knob functions abnormally for a Mesa.

With that in mind I don't see why adding a secondary master for low volume work wouldn't help. Something like an Ernie Ball or even a Boss volume pedal in the loop should make things easier to dial in at low volumes. Unfortunately I have nothing available to experiment with or I'd try it for myself.

I found it helped to get the amp off a hardwood floor. The floors in my house are hollow and really accentuate the bottom end. With some amps it helps fill things out, but with the ED it's generally too much.

I really like the ED through the stock MC90 but I prefer it through a Recto cab w/ V30s. It's probably because after a decade of playing through them my ears are really tuned into those speakers, plus the response of the cab makes it feel like I'm playing through a low-to-mid-gain Rectifier.

I almost always use the amp on 45w mode. It trims off some bottom end while inducing a bit of sag and shifting the mids around slightly. I typically find 90w mode a little too thick.

Lastly, when using the internal speaker I like to remove the rear casters only so that the cab angles up towards my head and I get a little more high end hitting my ear drum.
 
It's your ear, not your gear.
You have found a sweet spot in the volume range which sounds "good" to you, and other loudness levels don't.
The way the ear processes sounds at low vs. high volume means that as you increase the volume the perceived loudness of the bass and treble frequencies also goes way up, and goes way down as the volume is lowered. So you usually need to change the EQ when switching to different loudness levels, sometimes drastically. The room liveliness affects this as well. Lots of drapes and carpeting, or hardwood floors and uncovered windows?
Frankly, at very low volumes, where you can still hold a conversation without raising your voice, I doubt 99.99% of people could tell the difference between pre-amp distortion and a cranked amp through an attenuator. I've used the Master to control loudness for so long that an attenuator just seemed completely redundant. Why schlep extra gear around when it doesn't sound any different?
You could try less efficient, lower sensitivity speakers. That could drop 3-4 dB right there. Speaker choice can make a siginificant difference.
 
MrMarkIII said:
It's your ear, not your gear.
You have found a sweet spot in the volume range which sounds "good" to you, and other loudness levels don't.
The way the ear processes sounds at low vs. high volume means that as you increase the volume the perceived loudness of the bass and treble frequencies also goes way up, and goes way down as the volume is lowered. So you usually need to change the EQ when switching to different loudness levels, sometimes drastically. The room liveliness affects this as well. Lots of drapes and carpeting, or hardwood floors and uncovered windows?
Frankly, at very low volumes, where you can still hold a conversation without raising your voice, I doubt 99.99% of people could tell the difference between pre-amp distortion and a cranked amp through an attenuator. I've used the Master to control loudness for so long that an attenuator just seemed completely redundant. Why schlep extra gear around when it doesn't sound any different?
You could try less efficient, lower sensitivity speakers. That could drop 3-4 dB right there. Speaker choice can make a siginificant difference.

Any recommendations on speakers?
 
MrMarkIII said:
It's your ear, not your gear.
You have found a sweet spot in the volume range which sounds "good" to you, and other loudness levels don't.
The way the ear processes sounds at low vs. high volume means that as you increase the volume the perceived loudness of the bass and treble frequencies also goes way up, and goes way down as the volume is lowered. So you usually need to change the EQ when switching to different loudness levels, sometimes drastically. The room liveliness affects this as well. Lots of drapes and carpeting, or hardwood floors and uncovered windows?
Frankly, at very low volumes, where you can still hold a conversation without raising your voice, I doubt 99.99% of people could tell the difference between pre-amp distortion and a cranked amp through an attenuator. I've used the Master to control loudness for so long that an attenuator just seemed completely redundant. Why schlep extra gear around when it doesn't sound any different?
You could try less efficient, lower sensitivity speakers. That could drop 3-4 dB right there. Speaker choice can make a siginificant difference.

Pretty much. Speaker excursion aside, when you mic up a tube amp it is really interesting to hear how a mic 'hears' different volume levels. It is much more consistent than how we hear it. I think with higher SPLs, there is a perception of more 'punch and openness' but other than that, the overall tone is preserved.

Jdurso, if you can, seriously audition an mc90 with the Electra Dyne. You might really like it. Also, I play in a carpeted basement right now with lots of stuff. There is not much sound reflection at the moment.
 
I use a Hot Plate often ... It really depends on the amp & goal. It works great with my Tremoverb. With my Mark IV - I get better results using the master volume. Trying to reduce a amp to TV volumes it really is not that great with most amps .... but some it does.

Even my Fender Champ at 5 watts and a 8 inch speaker by the time I get it up to a good crunch sound is much louder than most people watch TV. Much, much louder...

I believe if someone could build a tube amp that sounds great at low volumes they could get rich. Maybe someday......
 
I'm thinking of pulling the c90 from my LSC and trying it in the ED sometime this week

I'm also moving my gear from my living room to my office wear it's more padded
 
jdurso said:
I'm thinking of pulling the c90 from my LSC and trying it in the ED sometime this week

I'm also moving my gear from my living room to my office wear it's more padded


I tried Scumbacks in place of the MC90, M75 and a J75, and they were not an improvement. The MC90 is perfect for the 1x12, big and fat sounding. I stuck a mic on the Scumback H75 and never liked what I heard from it, bright as hell IMHO.
 
I do think the scum back is less dark but I find that the highs aren't shrill and overall the speaker is very balanced. The low end however is almost too much... Not flubby by but just big which normally is a good thing.

With that said I'm going to probably find a c90 used and eventually repurpose the scum back in a different cab.
 
I hope switching the speaker solves your woes. I have not forgotten all the $$$s I sunk into my recto trying to make it something else, something that wasn't even available at the time. It was a miserable existence.
 
The best solution I've found to reducing volume without compromising tone, is power scaling. I use a kit version from London Power. Got my tech to install it in my Boogie Studio 22.
It's not perfect. Once you get it below a certain level, you won't be able to achieve a totally clean sound, but if you play really heavy stuff, that may not bother you.
I use my little Boogie at cafe levels, and I can now finally turn it up above 2 on the master.
When I first used it, I complained to my amp tech that it was distorting when turned down low. His reply was "come on, be fair, you're running at around 2 watts output at that level!"
Its not a bedroom level solution, but for low volume gigs and jams, its worth its weight in gold.
 
YellowJacket said:
I hope switching the speaker solves your woes. I have not forgotten all the $$$s I sunk into my recto trying to make it something else, something that wasn't even available at the time. It was a miserable existence.


I wouldn't call them woes... woes would be me trying to get a tone out of the amp that just isn't there. The tone is there for me... in fact the more I play and tweak the better it is. The only thing I'm trying to do is make that master usable i.e. not going from super quiet to stage level while barely moving the knob.

If all else fails, I'm in the process of redoing my entire upstairs (2 bedrooms... its a cape style)... i will just frame out a closet that I will sound proof the **** out of which will allow me to play at whatever level I want. But I don't think I'll have to go to those lengths... while the speaker change will be a small difference, I already know stepping down the signal in the FX loop actually works well for what I'm after. Again I'm not looking to be able to crank the power amp, just be able to get the master to wear the speaker sounds full but my floors aren't rattling.
 
I am one of those that use a rack mount effects unit and keep it's volume low. I have much more control over the volume and the tone hasn't suffered a bit that I can tell.
 

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