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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:55 am 
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Mark II

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:57 am
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I'm sure anyone looking for the Metallica tones on their Mesa's have at one point or another run into the MoP and Justice notes from Flemming Rasmussen. I have been looking at them at various times for a couple years, but more so the last year since I have obtained some of the equipment necessary to try the settings out. I think I have the gist of them, but I want to verify one thing with any of you that care enough to take a look at the notes and form an opinion. The main thing I am trying to get a solid grasp on is the Parametric EQ settings on the notes.

Example I: "...And Justice For All" Rhythm Guitars
Image

Looking at that page as an example, and looking through the others @ http://web.archive.org/web/200612140241 ... zNotes.htm , Flemming makes notes of B&B EQ 1 and 2, so if you were looking at those and the picture below to establish a visual reference (looking at the far right one).
Image

Would you agree with me that the notes look like:
EQ1:
4.6 KHz is boosted by roughly 6db
1.2 KHz is cut by roughly 6db
120 Hz is boosted by roughly 4db
&
With EQ2 if you assumed that it roughly represented similar frequency ranges, since the Low Frequency mark is the same (240 Hz) as EQ1 that the boosts/cuts represented:
-Somewhere in the range of 6-8 KHz is boosted by 6db
-Somewhere in the range of 750Hz-1.0KHz is cut by 6db
-Somewhere in the range of 260Hz-300Hz is boosted by roughly 4db.

Basically I am wondering if my assumptions make sense. I think I am on the right track but I just want to see if people agree with me. If you looked at those boosts and cuts it would make sense for explaining the extreme tone of the Justice Album, with the mids being that cut and the high's and low's being that boosted.

Now for Master of Puppets, only one EQ is listed, but playing around with the settings on my own gear I found that the tone sounded much more accurate if I basically used the exact knob settings for the Mesa on my Mark V and cut/boosted the labeled frequencies for the Parametric EQ, but then cut the mids just a bit more with another EQ, essentially cutting the 1.2 KHz by another 6 (-12db total), and then 1 KHz by about 10, 500 Hz by about 10 as well. I know that is probably blasphemous to anyone who loves Mids, but when I did this it sounded soooo much more accurate and playing along with the album is fit pretty damn close for songs like Damage Inc.

Anyway, I apologize for the length of this but I would like peoples input on this. I am not expecting to reproduce the tone perfectly, I am just having fun trying to get as close as I can with what I have, and I would value peoples opinions or suggestions.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:26 am 
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Mark III

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I know this is a verrry old topic, but I just got my Rane PE 15 and I am looking forward to dialing some settings to get the old metallica sound. Could anyone enlighten me?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Mark III

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:52 pm
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I would be interested too!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:40 am 
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Mark I

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 am
Posts: 21
That looks correct to me. The one thing I wonder though is about the PEQ's. Flemming said he thinks they didn't run the EQF's into each other, being that'd be some extreme scooping, but I think they might have, at least for AJFA. MOP has the EQF settings as well as the board PEQ settings so essentially there's still 2+ EQ's for each signal, but I'm pretty sure it's just the single EQF and then the board, not 2 EQF's. AJFA has no board settings so Flemming said he thinks that means either there was no board EQ or very minimal, otherwise he would have noted it. So my guess would be a single EQF + the board PEQ for MOP, and 2 EQF's one into the other for AJFA with no board EQ.

Another thing I want to note, they slaved the IIC+(+) into the loop return of a 2203 with EL34's (since it was in Europe), then out to 2 4x12 cabs. There still needs to be a load on the IIC+ if I'm not mistaken so I'm curious if one cab was from the IIC+/PEQ and the other was the IIC+/PEQ/2203 cocktail, which could somewhat explain the quite different board settings for each cab. That would definitely be interesting, anyone have thoughts on this? Or they could have had both cabs coming from the 2203. One question, would the volume controls on the marshall function when only using it as a power amp? Or would all the control come from the IIC+, because there is no note of this.

I've been trying to figure out the "quad level" box for a while and finally broke down and made a thread on rig-talk about it. The IIC+ and III's loops are -10db in/out while the EQF2 (and new EQF500) are +4db in/out, so the quad level box is adjusting the signal from the amp into the EQF, then adjusting back into the amp. The EbTech Line Level Shifter does exactly this.

Hetfield is known to have the C++ mod, but does anyone have an idea when he got the mod done? Is it possible MOP and AJFA are both stock IIC+? They very well could also be the IIC++.
Also for the "melody" settings, I assume those are for the cleans? They have the lead channel pulled so that throws me off but trying the settings in the clean channel of my green III and it sounds pretty good. Breaks up a bit more than I expected but maybe the IIC+ would be better for that, I lower the volume 1 by 1 or 2 and it sounds awesome! Melody could instead be for leads or harmonies or something else but I'm not sure.

I've always assumed RTL and MOP were both marshall 4x12's with G12-65's (not sure why I assumed that) and since they were rented I doubt the speakers would have been changed. But the 300watt note makes me wonder if they're G12T-75's since both were available at the time. Anyone have experience with both, or any info that could clear this up?

One thing I wanted to point out, in that gearslutz thread someone had assumed the 57 and the AKG were the most prominent while the 4006 was tucked back a bit, basing that off of the fader settings. I haven't tried this but I believe that assumption is wrong. Since the 57 is dynamic and the 4006 is condenser the 4006 would be more sensitive thus requiring a lower fader setting to reach the same volume. That and the AKG has a higher setting like the 57, but since the AKG was 4' away the level would also need to be increased somewhat to achieve the same level. So if my assumptions are correct I would guess all 3 mics are pretty close volume wise, but without actually trying it it's hard to say exactly.


I've thought of doing a very detailed write-up on the whole setup to hopefully eliminate any future confusion on what exactly these settings mean. Someday.


Last edited by jkkkjkhk on Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:11 am
Posts: 16
Hi

I did find this today ,there is some info for recording sessions whit Metallica. Biggest confused was that ,there have been some info for those mics what they did use in those two guitar cabinets. I have hear they did use three mics SM57 AKG and B&K ,but in that thread they mention there was four mics in those two cabinets. And there was Neuman U87 mic and SM7 mic too ,i was thinking before that there were two main mics SM57 and B&K.

But that information whit SM7 and U87 ,put me thinking again what there were in real in those days. And I was confused too because ,I was hear they did use SM57 0 inch straight to the cone ,but in that thread it was SM7 45-degree angle straight to the cone. Not like I was hear dead center of the cone ,and nothing angel in that mic. But below is that thread.

Update
Or was those SM7 and U87 mics ,and 45-degree angle micing AJFA setup and not a MOP setup. Because MOP notes I did not find those two mics ,and mic positions?

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may11/a ... s-0511.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:28 am 
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Mark I

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 am
Posts: 21
Dimebucker wrote:
Hi

I did find this today ,there is some info for recording sessions whit Metallica. Biggest confused was that ,there have been some info for those mics what they did use in those two guitar cabinets. I have hear they did use three mics SM57 AKG and B&K ,but in that thread they mention there was four mics in those two cabinets. And there was Neuman U87 mic and SM7 mic too ,i was thinking before that there were two main mics SM57 and B&K.

But that information whit SM7 and U87 ,put me thinking again what there were in real in those days. And I was confused too because ,I was hear they did use SM57 0 inch straight to the cone ,but in that thread it was SM7 45-degree angle straight to the cone. Not like I was hear dead center of the cone ,and nothing angel in that mic. But below is that thread.

Update
Or was those SM7 and U87 mics ,and 45-degree angle micing AJFA setup and not a MOP setup. Because MOP notes I did not find those two mics ,and mic positions?

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may11/a ... s-0511.htm


I've read that before as well and I think Flemming is just getting things mixed up, it was 30 years ago and he's worked with countless people. In the gearslutz thread he was pulling old files he had and M Wagner was there as well so there was more for him to go off of to spark his memory. The SOS article is great info but I stand by the notes in the gearslutz thread. It's the first I've ever heard him or anyone mention a U87 or an off axis 57 as well so...
Plus check out this pic, I'm pretty sure it's from the MOP session. The walls look like the walls of Sweet Silence and you can see the AKG The Tube "gold tube" as well which was in Flemmings locker. Lars garage didn't look like this and it was much smaller so it's not there, and AJFA was recorded at One on One which doesn't look like this either. That and AJFA they had switched to EMGs which the Jackson V does not have "yet".
Image

Few things on this, if you notice there are in fact 2 IIC+'s in this picture. The second one is hard to see but you can see the corner of the head and switches on the right side of James. I don't see a JCM anywhere, I'm sure they used it but I don't see it. I wonder what songs, if any or all they used the JCM. Next there's a Boss J5 switcher on the floor (blue box), it's one input and 4 outputs. There's one cable going in and 2 coming out, I assume one to each IIC+. There's also a blue Boss pedal sitting on the cab next to the second IIC+ head. At the time the only blue boss pedals were the CS1, CS2, CE2, CE3, and VB1. Any of those could make sense, the CS's for cleans, CE's for cleans, or the VB for that pulsating effect heard on the cleans to "Sanitarium". Possible whatever it is wasn't used at all.

There's a mysterious box on top of the left IIC+, don't know what it is but it could be the "quad level" line level shifter used for the loop. The settings written on the amp don't look like anything I've seen before as far as their known "used" settings, looks more like clean settings to me. Always see the Lead pulled though so that throws me off.

If you notice the gold tube in the lower right, Flemming said it was about 4' back diagonal from the cab, sitting 45 degrees from the corner of the cab, laying horizontal aimed at the corner of the cab. That matches up with this picture, you see it's a side addressed mic, so the side is pointed at the cab, not the top like a top addressed such as a 4006 or a SM57. You'll also notice a mic on the lower speaker of the right cab behind James right leg. I can't make out what that is but Flemming said the 57 was on a lower speaker and the 4006 was on a higher one. I only see a single mic stand and a single cable coming from the area so I'm not sure if there is a second mic, but who knows what was happening.

One more thing, if you look closely the right cab you can see the name plate at the bottom left corner. It says JCM, can't tell if it's a 1960 or a 1982 so it doesn't help us, but it was interesting nonetheless. The 300w note keeps me thinking though. G12T75's would make 300 watts, but for the longest time I thought it was G12-65's. Both were available in JCM800 cabs at the time so either are possible. Unfortunately the serial number doesn't tell us anything as Marshall didn't have any key to their serials. I haven't seen a mislabeled cab yet where it's G12-65's saying 300w, or G12T's saying 260w but who knows.

Lastly, I'm sure this isn't new info but you can see on the left IIC+ the amp says full pwr and 1/2 pwr, meaning it's a simulclass instead of a 100/60. Again probably not new info but it was good to have that definitively (at least for that head).

Just a few observations from this single pic, thanks to the power of zoom. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:57 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:11 am
Posts: 16
Hi

Nice info bro ,lots of good stuff you have discovery. Hey I find also some thread where some dude tell us some info for cabs ,check that too link is below.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=593866


BTW do you know Flemming AJFA notes what settings/values that B&& 2 EQ have in first EQ section ,for that AJFA rhythm guitar? I have discovery all other settings ,but below that B&B 2 text are two cursors and those both are in 12:00 o`clock. It is high frequency range ,and above those two cursors is text 6db. I know its +6db shelving boost ,but I don't know what frequency that second cursor have.

That second cursor is 12:00 o`clock between 4.6k and 9.2k ,and almost every AJFA notes have that same setting. Would be very nice to know what frequency setting that cursors have ,if you can tell me that would be amazing. And also if you know are those 1.2k sections peaking or shelving always ,because that have confused me also? There are some notes and those have info is that 1.2k shelving or peaking ,but all notes don't have those marks. I was thinking do B&B EQ have option to choose no peaking and shelving ,I only see that button where you can choose peaking or shelving I don't see off button there.

Here is notes for that AJFA tone ,if you can look there is A2-3 and Justice RtmGtrSettings.jpg note that I mean.

http://www.fwrproduction.com/FWR_Produk ... s_2.html#1


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:04 pm 
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Mark I

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 am
Posts: 21
Dimebucker wrote:
Hi

Nice info bro ,lots of good stuff you have discovery. Hey I find also some thread where some dude tell us some info for cabs ,check that too link is below.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... p?t=593866


BTW do you know Flemming AJFA notes what settings/values that B&& 2 EQ have in first EQ section ,for that AJFA rhythm guitar? I have discovery all other settings ,but below that B&B 2 text are two cursors and those both are in 12:00 o`clock. It is high frequency range ,and above those two cursors is text 6db. I know its +6db shelving boost ,but I don't know what frequency that second cursor have.

That second cursor is 12:00 o`clock between 4.6k and 9.2k ,and almost every AJFA notes have that same setting. Would be very nice to know what frequency setting that cursors have ,if you can tell me that would be amazing. And also if you know are those 1.2k sections peaking or shelving always ,because that have confused me also? There are some notes and those have info is that 1.2k shelving or peaking ,but all notes don't have those marks. I was thinking do B&B EQ have option to choose no peaking and shelving ,I only see that button where you can choose peaking or shelving I don't see off button there.

Here is notes for that AJFA tone ,if you can look there is A2-3 and Justice RtmGtrSettings.jpg note that I mean.

http://www.fwrproduction.com/FWR_Produk ... s_2.html#1

That GP thread is interesting as well. About RTL I'm not sure if James used the stock Dirty Fingers or the Anderson H3+ that he used for MOP, I've seen pics with both from the time. I haven't used the H3+ but the Invader, Dirty Fingers, and H3+ all have similar EQ and output so I imagine they're similar enough, HUGE low end. Unfortunately that thread doesn't prove much, since the cabs were rented I imagine what was used for RTL might not be the same cabs used on MOP. So it's possible the G12-65's were used for RTL and G12T-75's for MOP since they were then available.

12 o'clock on the high band for the EQF2 would be roughly 6600hz. The high band and the low band both had a shelving/peaking button while the mid band was set to peaking. Also worth noting the bandwidth (Q) was preset to 1.5. The new EQF500 is preset to 1.0, not sure how big of a difference it would make but was interesting.
Image

So there being 2 IIC+ heads, 2 cabs, and 2 EQF's it's also possible each head had it's own EQF and cab, OR one head with both EQF2's and both cabs, or any possible combination. I'd love to see any sort of pic from MOP with the JCM, I've seen the ones from AJFA though.

On to AJFA
Just to clarify the settings you see for Justice title track are:
EQ 1
4.6khz +6db, shelving
1.2khz -6db, peaking
120hz +4db, shelving
Filter is roughly 20khz lo pass, and 100hz hi pass, so anything below 100hz is cut off and anything above 20khz is cut off.

EQ 2
6.6khz +6db, shelving
1khz (roughly) -6db, peaking
300hz (roughly) -4db, peaking
No filter

I'd love to know what settings they used for the GML EQ which is a stereo 5 band PEQ, or could be used as a single 10 band PEQ. They bypassed the Neve EQ in favor of the GML for what looks to be is for only the SM57, at least by those notes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:43 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:11 am
Posts: 16
Hi

Wow thanks a lot bro ,now I can see those settings very clear. Yeah would be very nice to see that GML EQ settings too ,if you find those somewhere please share that info for us. Hey another question if you know almost everything about that MOP ,how they did run those B&B EQ and Trident board EQ was those two units in serial or parallel?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:30 pm 
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Mark I

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 am
Posts: 21
Dimebucker wrote:
Hi

Wow thanks a lot bro ,now I can see those settings very clear. Yeah would be very nice to see that GML EQ settings too ,if you find those somewhere please share that info for us. Hey another question if you know almost everything about that MOP ,how they did run those B&B EQ and Trident board EQ was those two units in serial or parallel?


For MOP there seems to be only a single EQF so simply just in the effects loop of the IIC+, then the mics on the cabs are going into the mic preamps of the Trident A Range, which then go through the EQ's of the A Range, to the faders, to the busses... At some point there's a 1176 Compressor, not sure if it's for each individual track, OR combined 57's, 4006's, and AKG's separately, OR the 57's and 4006's combined and AKG's separate.

For each take there's 6 tracks. This seems to confuse people, the difference between a "track" and a "take". One performance, a "take" makes up 6 "tracks". 2 cabs, each with a 57, a 4006, and an AKG, so 3 mics each cab or 6 mics total. Each mic goes to it's own mic preamp, EQ, and Fader making 6 tracks. The 2 SM57's are then bounced (combined) down to a single track, 4006's are bounced to a single, AKGs bounced to a single. Then the 57's and 4006's are then bounced again to a single track. So essentially the 2 57's and 2 4006's are all 4 combined into a single track, and the 2 AKG's combined to a separate single track. 1 "take", 6 "tracks", down to 2 "tracks". The close mics track (57's and 4006's) is panned hard left while the ambient mics track (AKG) is panned roughly 15% left. Then you have a second "take", repeat the exact same process but panned to the right. Again another single "take" making 6 "tracks", bounced down to 2 "tracks". You then do the "thickener" take. I'm not 100% on this part but I'm pretty sure this is accurate. You have the 6 tracks from this single take, the 3 mics on the left cab are bounced to a single track panned hard left, and the 3 mics on the right cab are bounced to a single track panned hard right.

So to summarize, it's 3 "takes" or performances, creating 6 "tracks" each or a total of 18 tracks. Eventually bounced down to a final total of 6 tracks. Rhythm hard left, rhythm 15% left, rhythm hard right, rhythm 15% right, thickener hard left, and thickener hard right.

Note this signal chain changes slightly for AJFA because they were then at One on One studios, so the Trident A Range was not used. Flemming used the Neve instead but substituted the Neve's EQ's for the GML previously stated but still used the Neve mic pres. The micing and mixing I just explained should be the same.

Edit: I've been wondering this for a bit and your thread on the axe fx forum finally gave me an answer. The bandwidth (Q) for the Trident A Range EQ is 1.2.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:05 am 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:11 am
Posts: 16
Hi

Thanks again bro ,nice to see all those info. Yeah Trident A-range in my ears have 1.2 octave Q ,and there is also notes that unit have 1.2 Q witch makes a sense. And B&B seems to be 1.5 ,like those old units did have. That 1.0 what new ones have sounds good too ,its little bit more scooping and aggressive character sounding if you set to Q 1.0. I did compare Trident A-range ,to PEQ what I have and I was dead on same settings for that whit Q 1.2 .

Those cabinets are still little bit myth like you say ,was there 65s or 75s and JCM800 or 1960. But in frequency analyzer ,and lots of compare different cabinets I think there was mainly 65s. Because 75s have high spikes in 5k to 20k ,and 65s do not have those spikes. And 75s have little bit more brightness and that high frequency spikes ,if you compare to 65s which are little bit more dark and warm sounding speakers. And I'm not surprise if there were in those two cabinets ,different speakers for each one.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Mark I

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 am
Posts: 21
Dimebucker wrote:
Hi

Those cabinets are still little bit myth like you say ,was there 65s or 75s and JCM800 or 1960. But in frequency analyzer ,and lots of compare different cabinets I think there was mainly 65s. Because 75s have high spikes in 5k to 20k ,and 65s do not have those spikes. And 75s have little bit more brightness and that high frequency spikes ,if you compare to 65s which are little bit more dark and warm sounding speakers. And I'm not surprise if there were in those two cabinets ,different speakers for each one.


That's good to know, I haven't had the chance to play 65's or compare them to the 75's so I can't comment on the tone differences between them, so thanks for that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:29 pm 
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Bottle Rocket

Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:11 am
Posts: 16
Hi

Yeah those two speakers sounds little bit different both are amazing sounding speakers ,And both of those works great for old Metallica tones bro.

jkkkjkhk wrote:
Dimebucker wrote:
Hi

Those cabinets are still little bit myth like you say ,was there 65s or 75s and JCM800 or 1960. But in frequency analyzer ,and lots of compare different cabinets I think there was mainly 65s. Because 75s have high spikes in 5k to 20k ,and 65s do not have those spikes. And 75s have little bit more brightness and that high frequency spikes ,if you compare to 65s which are little bit more dark and warm sounding speakers. And I'm not surprise if there were in those two cabinets ,different speakers for each one.


That's good to know, I haven't had the chance to play 65's or compare them to the 75's so I can't comment on the tone differences between them, so thanks for that.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:08 am 
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Mark III

Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:29 am
Posts: 316
Could anyone please confirm if the "master of puppets" demo was recorded using James' Mark 2+??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYgroh_602Q

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:29 pm 
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Mark I

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:39 am
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About equing, do you think James Hetfield has ever used eqs before his IIC+ (pre-eq) for Master, AJFA and the Black Album ?

Thanks.


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