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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:59 pm 
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ryjan wrote:
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On a tour maybe... in the stupid not a chance in hell. Those guys are gear junkies. They may not know how to wire up their refrigerator sized touring rigs (which is why you hire someone so its done right), but they know their stuff.

Also guitarmaster, who's to say a pro can't use a behringer or line 6 gear? The whole boutique, high end, analog pedal is better than anything digital or mass produced out of china arguement is so stupid and juvenile. Take a player like Dave Navarro... the guy has awesome tone and achieves it with stock Boss pedals into a JCM900 set clean. No special boutique amp, no special boutique analog pedals, just a guy who knows how to use his gear to get a good tone.

As for Metallica, those guys have been tearing it up for 25+ years now and have crafted some of the best heavy guitar tones in their tenure (Master of Puppets, Black Album, the Load sessions)... they must be doing something right tonewise to garner that type of respect out of the musician/guitarist communities.
+1 These guys sit and fiddle for weeks in the studio with the kind of equipment you and I dream of playing through and personally sculpt their sound. Plus they also know the recording and mixing gear like the back of their hand too. If you read some of the interviews these guys do in magazines and stuff, you get a feel as to how brilliant they actually are at setting their tone. Always remember, tone is in the ear of the beholder.


Case and point is the tones they got in their 90s records. Whether you like TBA, the Load sessions or Garage INC, those were killer tone records for Metallica, especially Garage INC. A lot of why the last two albums have sounded like garbage isnt the equipment or they're skills finding good tone but in the way it was recorded and mixed.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:42 am 
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jdurso wrote:
A lot of why the last two albums have sounded like garbage isnt the equipment or they're skills finding good tone but in the way it was recorded and mixed.

I chalk it up to laziness too, but that's just a guess on my part ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:20 pm 
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kiff wrote:
jdurso wrote:
A lot of why the last two albums have sounded like garbage isnt the equipment or they're skills finding good tone but in the way it was recorded and mixed.

I chalk it up to laziness too, but that's just a guess on my part ;)


Those guys are anything but lazy. St Anger had zero production work, i'm not even sure they setup the mics right. Death Magnetic was butchered by Rick Rubin who always has a nack for taking a good recording and compressing the sh!t out of it until it has a "live" sound. The blame i put on them is allowing either of those subpar records to hit the press.... if they were proud of the songs they should have been concious of recording it.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:43 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:15 pm 
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guitarmaster you need to take a chill pill man because you missed my point. Whether or not Hetfield or Navarro have good tone is subjective... our opinions are going to differ there obviously. But my whole point is a professional musician can use whatever tools they need to get the job done, no matter if its high end boutique equipment or low end chinese made stuff.

As for the whole digital vs analog, I never said there isn't a difference. My whole point was one isn't necassarily BETTER than the other. They each can have different applications. There's delays and reverbs (as well as many fx) in some digital units that an analog pedal could never do just because of the complexity of the algorithm. At the same time digital units can't nail the warmth of an analog unit (at least not 100%). So they both have their applications which will all depend on what a particular guitarist likes... point is one isnt better than the other. To claim so is extremely ignorant.

Chinese/Korean made equipment can be crap as you state, but that has less to do with where its assembled and more to do with the design. Most well designed products will use better parts and may be assembled/manufactored in either the US or Europe. That is not to say there is just black and white... the gray area can have both mediocre products and great bang for your buck. Line6 and Boss make solid products... they will not sound as warm as a boutique analog unit or as pristine as a high end digital unit (Eventide, TC, Fractal), but they fill a niche and get the job done. Both are also super reliable which is quite an achievment for mass produced "crap".

You say I'm contradicting myself because of the gear I choose to use? The fact is I play what I like whether it be boutique, foreign or digital. I have no preference one way or the other as long as it puts a smile on my face. My whole point was it doesn't have to be boutique to get a good tone out of it... whether I choose to use a boutique amp or not poses no contradiction to my statement. Whether I choose to use US made products or products made in China, poses no contradiction to my statement. You also say i contradict myself because the Axe-fx is made in the USA? This has got to big the biggest stretch out of your entire post. What would make you believe I didnt know it was made in the US? Plus even if i didnt know it, it poses no contradiction to my statement about chinese made products like Line6. These are just absolutely absurd statements that hold no water.

As for a digital unit being built with the purpose of decieving people... I dont think anyone buying a modeller is decieved in thinking they are getting a true fender twin or a Bogner Uber when they use those specific models. They can get close but no one that I've ever met is in anyway decieved your getting the same tone as the actual amp. Also i really like how you automatically assumed since I have the Axe-fx, that I'm using it for amp modelling. I actually use it for all my time based fx and it has the clearest, most pristine reverbs and delays you will ever hear. It also gives you the depth to create sounds you would never be able to produce using analog pedals. Am I saying the Axe is better than a pedal board full of analog fx? No.. but there are many things it can do you wouldnt be able to do with just pedals, and sounds just as good.

And just so we're clear I wasn't calling you juvenile and stupid, I was calling the notion that boutique is automatically better than digital units or mass produced chinese units is juvenile and stupid. Its an extremely close minded way of approaching gear (and music in general) and limits your horizon. So if you want to make the jump that me calling the notion juvenile and stupid is the same as me calling YOU juvenile and stupid, then thats on you my man.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:55 pm 
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Last edited by guitarmaster on Wed May 06, 2015 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:38 am 
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guitarmaster wrote:
jdurso wrote:
guitarmaster you need to take a chill pill man because you missed my point. Whether or not Hetfield or Navarro have good tone is subjective... our opinions are going to differ there obviously. But my whole point is a professional musician can use whatever tools they need to get the job done, no matter if its high end boutique equipment or low end chinese made stuff.


In the 80's this didn't happen.................now unfortunately "quality" is a characteristic missed by many products and obviously by the brands that produce them...............


In the 80s you could buy quality equipment made in the US without the "boutique" stigma driving the price tag up. If you do a cost comparison analysis between the 80s and today you'd realize there is a pretty big difference in the manufacturing cost at least here in the US. There is no ONE culpurit to shift the blame to but one of the bigger ones is the inflation in land/housing value over the past 15-20 years. Any good company can mass produce quality, rock solid gear but to do it in the US means you need to carry a very large over head cost which will cause the retail price to skyrocket. Couple that rise in cost with the stigma of "boutique" equipment and greed to an extent and you now have a product that maybe made to the exact same specs as it was 20 years ago, but in todays world its sells for 200%-300% more.

Now here's the kicker... worker compensation has not followed the price of inflation for about 15 years now. That means a guy doing my job 15 years ago was getting paid the same as me except in his world the price of living (or price of manufactoring) was much lower. This is why bigger companies flock to Asia to do their manufacturing... its also why only small companies can still thrive in the US, but in most cases those US companies have much larger price tags, not just because they may make a better product, but the biggest reason is the huge overhead cost of manufacturing that you wouldnt have doing your production in Asia. So not only are the retail prices spiked on US made products, but the todays customers make less money than their 80s counterparts after you factor inflation, thus it makes it harder to afford that product. Now you can see the vicious cycle forming... less demand out there due to affordibility issues means a drop in supply, which brings you to today's boutique market of great sounding, rock solid products that are grossly overpriced due to many factors.

One thing i will agree with you on is the whole notion of this sucks. Not because of the products, but because inflation and greed have caused what could have been honest businesses to cut corners in order to stay competitive. And for the businesses that do stay honest, they're forced to charge waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy too much in order to compete in the boutique market.

guitarmaster wrote:
jdurso wrote:
As for the whole digital vs analog, I never said there isn't a difference. My whole point was one isn't necassarily BETTER than the other. They each can have different applications. There's delays and reverbs (as well as many fx) in some digital units that an analog pedal could never do just because of the complexity of the algorithm. At the same time digital units can't nail the warmth of an analog unit (at least not 100%). So they both have their applications which will all depend on what a particular guitarist likes... point is one isnt better than the other. To claim so is extremely ignorant.


Wait a moment please..............for me digital units that deserve attention are only : Eventide, old TC. Electronic products (TC2290) for example.............


You should add Fractal Audio to your list if your going to name Eventide. But again my arguement is the whole "BETTER" aspect, especially in the analog vs digital arguement. There are two reasons why many supposed "tone gurus" claim analog is superior and both actually have to do with comfort. The first reason is analog pedals have a much simpler design and are easier to use. That provides a certain comfort level to a musician whole may or may not be the brightest penny in the fountain. The second reason is mostly due to your musical conditioning. You're used to hearing certain tones and certain effects in a certain way. No not every musician will end up liking the same things but the whole "warm" vs "sterile" arguement comes down to your ears are USED to hearing analog equpiment whether they be the gera the musicans play through or what the engineers record on. We are trained by the music we listen to prefer a certain tonal characteristic, and for those that grew up in the pre-digital age those tones were created on analog equipment. I've been playing music whether it be classical/orchestral when i was younger to rock/metal today, for the last 20 years or so... through my experience of both listening to various bands, playing in various different setting and playing various different instruments has been the conditioning of the way my ear/brain interprets tone. That is going to be a totally different experience and conditioning to most anyone else... therefore my interpretation of "BETTER" will differ, as will yours. So in that same breathe there is no "BETTER", its comes down to what you like and if your brain is conditioned to like what analog fx and boutique amps gives you then so be it. But to harp on you opinion that this is better than that shows a lack of depth... at the end of the day if you can make something work for you and it makes you happy then so be it.


guitarmaster wrote:
jdurso wrote:
You say I'm contradicting myself because of the gear I choose to use?


Sure, if you had liked Line 6, you would have used Line 6 or other brands (made in China/Korea) not Fractal and so on.........this is a contradiction. You told that my comparison is juvenile , but you're a boutique amps user and a lot of your gear is not made in China.
If you have chosen Fractal over Line 6 there's surely a reason.................probably Line 6 couldn't give you the tone (fx) you looked for.You have surely compared Fractal to Line 6 and you have noticed the differences. Fractal is better than line 6, there's not any doubt.
Everyone can use what he wants...............IMO Hetfield's current rig is "unbalanced". A Line 6 placed next to a Mesa/Boogie or other hi-end equipment is like to put a rotten apple in a box with shining red apples..............and I add that for example to use poor cables in a 15.000 US$ equipment is pure madness!!!!!!!! When I think about pro musicians, I think about pro-equipments...........sorry but I dislike products made in China/Korea, but not those made in Japan for example (speaking about oriental stuff). U.S.A and Europe made products are the best and I would like to come back to the 80's avoiding to see printed on the rear of some fx processors /keyboards and so on : "Made in China"............call me mad, but China had ruined the World with crappy products !!!!!! Many brands build their products in China (or in the Extreme Orient Nations) to reduce the production costs, but this is a disadvantage for the customers and sometimes people waste money buying something that is branded for example TC Electronics , but it's made in Thailand. Tc Electronics G major is made in Thailand :

http://www.tcelectronic.com/media/GMajor_Rear.jpg

but G Force is made in Denmark :

http://www.tcelectronic.com/media/GForce_Rear.jpg

This is an example of products made under the same brand but built in different places.


Again its not a contradiction. I choose to play what I play because its what I like. But I have played many amps, many guitars and many fx pedals/units. Some of the best gear I have played has been made somewhere in the Far East. Line 6 Echo Pro and Mod Pro can stand their own against some of the best fx units out there. ESP's LTD division has put out some great, quality, reliable guitars for reasonable prices. What i own today has no bearing on what I like because that can change (and has) at any time. Could it be your thinking of a word in italian and there's no direct translation other than contradiction? I ask because me own certain gear does not contradict my opinion of other gear... its not a proper use of the word.



guitarmaster wrote:
jdurso wrote:
And just so we're clear I wasn't calling you juvenile and stupid, I was calling the notion that boutique is automatically better than digital units or mass produced chinese units is juvenile and stupid. Its an extremely close minded way of approaching gear (and music in general) and limits your horizon. So if you want to make the jump that me calling the notion juvenile and stupid is the same as me calling YOU juvenile and stupid, then thats on you my man.


No problem, opinions are opinions, probably I misunderstood.............but I disagree with this statement :
jdurso wrote:
Its an extremely close minded way of approaching gear (and music in general) and limits your horizon.

A great quality equipment can't limit my horizon...................and I also think that comparing products and brands is not a waste of time but it's a way to search for the best solutions and obviously to spend our money "using the brain" . I can't believe that a pro can't find alternatives to Line 6 stuff ! It seems that a lot of pro guitarists delegate to their guitar/amp/fx techs the choice of their gear , I think this is a really bad mistake and it generates only lack of "personality" and "expression" in their tone. There are a lot of real good rack compressors/Ng/rack fx units..............I ask myself why Metallica use Behringer and Line 6, this is the point and this was the comment I made answering to Elpelotero. Excuse me man, for you it's logic to have 4 tri-axis and a line 6, behringer, instead of some pro fx , for example Eventide ???? I remember Danny Spitz's rig in 1988 : 3 Mark IIIs, Eventide H3000, 4 Rocktron Juice Extractors (made in USA, Allan Holdsworth's signature, not like today's Rocktron stuff, that's made in China!!!!!!!!!!)...............good times !!!


Point taken but you dont even know HOW and WHEN they use that gear (unless your secretly jame's tech). Also how often do you hear Metallica use FX live? Very sparingly so why would they need an Eventide? Just because money is no object to them doesnt mean they have to use the most expensive stuff out there. And the if that behringer ng has been in his "fridge" for years and last time I saw them they sounded amazing... again other than just having the very "best" money can buy, why play soemthing else if that works for him? I'm just not seeing WHY they HAVE to use certain gear in order to have good tone. Listen unless your amp is super noisey most noise gates will do the trick... hence me using a Boss NS2. But again niether you or I know exactly WHEN and WHY they use those particular pieces of gear. My Noni told me a long time ago... "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." A picture only tells a partial story.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:20 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:34 pm 
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This is my last reply to this discussion guitarmaster...

Again what gear I own does not in any contradict my thoughts. My whole arguement wasn't that your specific comments about Hetfields choice of equipment was juvenile and stupid, rather the arguement that Boutique is BETTER than mass produced chinese. Better is a matter of opinion and even if you polled a population of guitarists and they favor one over the other it still does not make something BETTER because your just finding the popular opinion. I dont think in black and white... if like what i like and if that ends up being mostly american made semi-boutique stuff then so be it. But there are "purests" who will treat anything mass produced, anything non-tube, anything digital as blasphemous and I think that is total BS. If thats what they like and what puts a smile on their face then thats awesome... but to spread these notions around the this is better than that is a juvenile or childish arguement. Really what this notion creates is a myth and a stigma... all based on an opinion, even if its a popular one. And you know what this myth creates? Over priced boutique equipment... boutique is always going to cost more than a mass produced product because of the difference in manufacturing processes, but 90% of the boutique market is way overpriced.

You know what i find funny about all this? You find these traditionalists who are set in there ways in terms of their gear and what you end up finding a lot of the time is they all stick to the same style and generally sound the same. Now i'm not directing this at you guitarmaster but just making a very general observation. You have guys so infatuated with these older fenders, old gibsons, old marshalls, all tube all the time, must be analog to be good... and they all end up busting out the same blues box, with the same phrasing and more or less the same tones. The tones are classic no doubt and very enjoyable but does it stand out? NOPE. Now take a guy like Dimebag.... solid state amps, digital fx and some rather unusual guitars. Is his tone great? From a purest's poitn of view its probably the devil, but it sure is memorable. You know its Dime the second you hear the guitar. The same goes with Jack White IMO... his old sears silvertone (which to me is on par with the mass produced chinese amps of today) and digitech fx aren't the nicest tones to my ears. But because they're so obscure and abrasive at times it really makes his music, which isn't that unique on its own, sound unique.

Oh and BTW, dont judge a band's live show by a youtube clip. The sound quality of youtube clips are very poor. At least buy a dvd like cunning stunts or S&M and then make your opinion known. The only way to truly experience a bands live tone is to be at the show at a decent venue.

And I'm done.. peace.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:57 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:24 am 
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guitarmaster wrote:
Marshall :lol: :lol: :lol: .........listen to these songs :
HEATHEN "Victims of Deception" CD, Tape, LP - Roadrunner Records 1989

Image



Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Hypnotized
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... otized.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Opiate of the masses
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... Masses.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Heathen Song
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... 20Song.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Kill The King
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... 20King.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Fear of the Unknown
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... nknown.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Prisoners Of Fate
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... 20Fate.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Morbid Curiosity
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... iosity.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Guitarmony
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... armony.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Mercy is no virtue
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... Virtue.mp3

Heathen : Victims of deception (1989) - Timeless Cell Of Prophecy
MESA/BOOGIE Mark III 1986 :

http://www.heathenmetal.com/main/multim ... ophecy.mp3


PS : The entire album is available for free download (legally) from Official Heathen website :
http://www.heathenmetal.com/website/media.html

Anyone have settings for that tone? It sounds alot like the Justice tone only with more balls.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:02 am 
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How can I get a solid JUSTICE sound out of my Triaxis?

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 11:30 am 
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gain=7.5
treb=6
mid=5
bass=3.5
ld1=0
ld2=6.5
mast=5
pres=4
dv=9-10
Lead 2 Yellow
equalizer in the loop with mids scooped around the 650-750hz range.
stick close to these settings with an eq and you wont know the difference between your guitar and the cd.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:36 pm 
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ryjan wrote:
gain=7.5
treb=6
mid=5
bass=3.5
ld1=0
ld2=6.5
mast=5
pres=4
dv=9-10
Lead 2 Yellow
equalizer in the loop with mids scooped around the 650-750hz range.
stick close to these settings with an eq and you wont know the difference between your guitar and the cd.


Those settings are amazing!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:26 am 
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Quick question, great discussion btw, how do you like the fractal audio axe fx? and how do you think it will perform as only effects thru the fx loop of my mark v?

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