I finally got some time to post this topic.
Comparison of three 2.5inch voice coil how power speakers used in a Mark V combo.
What a tiring few days this has become. Most of my problems were setting up to record. That reminds me I need a new pair of headphones as the one's I have are not very good. Also need to move onto a DAW as the Tascam Recorder has seen better days. I doubt there is anything wrong with it and it still works fine I just need more control on signal management (will be necessary if and when I get back into projects). I took a hunch but may have been a bad idea or one sort of in the right direction. I dialed in the mixer with a few mics using the Mesa Vertical 212 cab. Once the playback was close to the real deal that was it. I did not want to waste another day drying this and that. Taped up a box around the cab on the carpet before moving the 212 cab so I can place the Mark V combo.
To start I ran the Celestion Redback beginning with the clean channel set to fat mode and no post EQ. Kiesel DC600 with Piezo Floyd Rose bridge (Maple neck though on a Mahogany body with maple top. Maple fret board if that really matters... ) for the simulated acoustic part which was repeated for each speaker run though. The remaining parts used a Carvin CT624C (Mahogany set neck, ebony fret board, Mahogany body with Maple top and Standard Floyd Rose bridge). Clean channel with neck or bridge pickup, Ch2 crunch using the preset post EQ and then finally CH3 using Mark IV voice using the post EQ in a V shape with the center slider raised closer to the center line). I got used to the Red back speaker and is fun to play though.
The Celestion Redback (G12H-150, $169.00) is a direct drop in replacement for the MC90. Note that the speaker has a paper gasket vs. the foam rubber but should fit the standard screws mounted to the baffle board. My particular Mark V combo no longer has the original speaker mounting screws in it so I am only speculating if the stock screws would be long enough. The Red back sounds similar to a V30 blended with the Celestion Crème Alnico 90W speaker with a slight vintage voice to it but yet sounds very aggressive when pushed hard. This speaker does have a long break in period. On the Clean channel it was amazing out of the box. The higher gain channels required a few months of use before the midrange would show up as well as the top end. It does have some roll off on the higher notes but sounds great once you open the volume up. Recommended method for mounting is rear of baffle (same way the MC90 is mounted). The plastic cover on the magnet does add some additional surface area but preamp and power tube maintenance is about the same as the stock speaker as the basket and magnet are about the same size and shape. What the recording reveals is the natural tone of the speaker but what it did not capture was the true nature of the speaker’s character in the room or the immediate response and feel you get playing though it. I was running the amp with FX loop active so I can use the global master volume control. Also I had the tone controls on the mixer to eliminate the intensity of the treble above 10kHz. It is not exactly a dull sounding speaker by any means with respect to the high frequency roll off characteristic which is actually a benefit with the Mark V as it may have the tendency to turn into an ice pick or breaking glass tone monster if you are a bit aggressive with the treble and presence controls in association with a high gain setting. The feel of the guitar and quick response of the speaker makes the Mark V a pleasure to play as it is really easy to ring out some interesting harmonics even at reduced volume settings. Speaker flatulence is noted at lower volume levels (bedroom level) especially when palm muting the strings for a chugging sound. Raise the bar on the volume control and it roars and tightens up and the subtle fart becomes an authoritative punch with plenty of grind to shake the floor and everything else in the room. Definitely a speaker worthy for a combo amp that is 90W+. I pushed it hard with the JP-2C and I could not get this speaker to break up. If the speaker was alive and could talk, I would think its response to the JP-2C would be “Is that all you got?”
Next in line was the Electro Voice EVM12L Black Label speaker ($269.00-$299.00): 300W version of the Classic. This speaker takes some abuse just as much as the Celestion Red Back speaker. It may be possible to mount this speaker in the stock position assuming the mounting screws are long enough but the beefy aluminum basket and huge diameter magnet will pose a few challenges to preamp tube replacement. Its overall depth (basket, gasket and magnet driver) is similar to the MC90. The EV measured depth is 5.25 inches compared to the Red Back which is 5.4 inches deep (which should be about the same for the MC90). Why the preamp replacement challenge? It is the shape of the aluminum basket which makes tube replacement a challenge in removal and installation of the aluminum tube shields. The last thing you want to do is drop a tube into the speaker and then try to retrieve it. Front baffle mounting would be the best solution as this is the method by which Mesa used to mount the EVM12L Black Shadow speaker in the Mark III combo. That will reduce the intrusion of the speaker basket in the combo cavity by three quarters of an inch. That is a big help especially when it comes to tube replacement.
One thing to point out for front mounting, the speaker will not fit into the opening of the baffle. I had to sand the baffle hole by small amounts to fit the EV speaker. Best to use an air driven tool and a sanding drum if you have such available. It could be handled by a hand drill and sanding drum if you are careful enough not to sand a divot in one spot. Do not use a router as that would be more difficult since the baffle is not removable. The next thing to do is to modify the grill frame where the speaker rim intersects the frame. That is where a router comes in as some material needs to be removed from the frame on the back side. Since I bought the combo shell used when I converted my Mark V head to a combo I planned on using the EV speaker from the beginning. So I was already set for the EV speaker.
Yeah, it is a staple in guitar amps one fine day in the late 1980’s if not earlier. To me this was the pinnacle of Mesa Mark III. You can push it hard and it delivers or run soft and it still provides some pleasure. One speaker that dishes out what you put into it. Tone is a bit flat if you are used to the V30 or MC90 speaker. This may be part of the sterility of the speaker. The other is the feel it provides as the response time of the speaker is a bit slow compared to a V30 or the Red back (if you have not had the luxury of driving both V30 and EV in separate cabinets you are missing out on something unique but the response time of both speakers driven from the same source can be noted, it is not much but the differences are audible) In the recording I did not change any of the settings on the amp to compensate for the different speaker in hopes to reveal the tonal differences. This time I played the guitar for each section vs. using a recorded guitar track. I left all of the settings as is and compared it to a picture I took at the beginning of the comparison. Amp placement was approximate as the amp was placed back in the taped outline of its original position. I will let the recoding do the rest for how it sounds relative to the other speakers.
Organic Timbre Rhapsody G12F (direct for $209.00): Now for something familiar yet completely different. At first glance it appears like an EV clone. Paper texture of the cone looks identical down to the dust cap except for the printed logo. The surrounding webbing is very similar to the EV black label speaker (which is what was used on the Mesa Black Shadow EVM12) but that is about it. The aluminum frame casting is not identical and actually was design for installation in mind since it is lacking the casting relief on the back of the rim. The spokes of the basket are also shaped differently. The material used on the spider is felt or leather like in appearance and not as coarsely threaded doped fabric. The Voice coil wire connectors are also different than the EV. Where the other areas of good engineering changes are in the wire posts. Yes the spring loaded pressure posts are there but something else too, solder or clip tabs to aid in multi speaker hookup. Ever try to wire up 4 EV’s in a 412 cab? The OTR has that covered for simplicity as you can either solder, use a female quick connect or the spring post or both. Then there is the ceramic magnet driver with something a bit different from the EV driver. Thick steel plates on both sides of the ceramic core to couple the magnetic field (same magnet driver design as the MC90 and or V30 speaker, I believe the end caps on the ceramic core used on the EV is aluminum). The voice coil and magnetic pole is rear vented just like the EV as well as the MC90. It is heavier than the EVM12L black label speaker. One last thing to point out… if you have bored out the speaker hole for front mounting, you will have to make the hole a bit bigger to fit this speaker (it is not much as there was plenty of wood between the screw holes and the edge of the speaker hole after I widened the opening for a good fit). When I made the recording, it is the first time I had heard the speaker so it is fresh out of box (green and not broken in yet). I thought the one speaker in the comparison was optimum for the clean channel, think again…. This Organic Timbre Rhapsody G12F won the clean door prize. Grind your teeth when you smile as the crunch will explode with a new sound. There is some similarity to the Redback and V30 but yet has a slight EV character but not sterile by any means. Response time seems about the same as the EV but that may work its way closer to the Redback as this speaker is not broken in yet. Both the Redback and EV speaker had a few months of use to a few years of use. I can definitely tell the difference between the OTR-G12F and the EVM12L especially in the upper frequency response. The EV can really become an ice pick if you let it where as the OTR has more roll off on the upper range and is much better than the Redback. It falls in between the two. For low level or bedroom level playing the OTR remained tight, no flub like the Redback or dominant lows like the EV. I have not opened up the throttle yet to drive it hard as I would rather allow for some break in before slapping the voice coil into oblivion like I did with the MC90 (reason why it was not part of the comparison, I just do not have any luck with that speaker as that makes #3, it never performed well at elevated volume levels and I was not too comfortable with the tone anyways.)
Now I have to debate what I will install in the 1x12 extension cab….Redback or the EV? That is a tough call but I think I will have to hear what happens with either….. Once I break in this behemoth of a speaker I may end up buying a few more to refurbish my old OS Recto cab I have loaded with EV speakers. A mix of Redback and OTR may sound interesting….
If you made it this far…. Here is the link for the recording…. Don’t mind the mess as my hands were killing me just to get this done. Spent an entire day trying to find the right position for the mics, recorded several takes and repeated until I just could not go any further until the next day with the idea to use the Vertical 212 as the reference.
Here is the link to the recording:
https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/red-ev-otrwav
Comparison of three 2.5inch voice coil how power speakers used in a Mark V combo.
What a tiring few days this has become. Most of my problems were setting up to record. That reminds me I need a new pair of headphones as the one's I have are not very good. Also need to move onto a DAW as the Tascam Recorder has seen better days. I doubt there is anything wrong with it and it still works fine I just need more control on signal management (will be necessary if and when I get back into projects). I took a hunch but may have been a bad idea or one sort of in the right direction. I dialed in the mixer with a few mics using the Mesa Vertical 212 cab. Once the playback was close to the real deal that was it. I did not want to waste another day drying this and that. Taped up a box around the cab on the carpet before moving the 212 cab so I can place the Mark V combo.
To start I ran the Celestion Redback beginning with the clean channel set to fat mode and no post EQ. Kiesel DC600 with Piezo Floyd Rose bridge (Maple neck though on a Mahogany body with maple top. Maple fret board if that really matters... ) for the simulated acoustic part which was repeated for each speaker run though. The remaining parts used a Carvin CT624C (Mahogany set neck, ebony fret board, Mahogany body with Maple top and Standard Floyd Rose bridge). Clean channel with neck or bridge pickup, Ch2 crunch using the preset post EQ and then finally CH3 using Mark IV voice using the post EQ in a V shape with the center slider raised closer to the center line). I got used to the Red back speaker and is fun to play though.
The Celestion Redback (G12H-150, $169.00) is a direct drop in replacement for the MC90. Note that the speaker has a paper gasket vs. the foam rubber but should fit the standard screws mounted to the baffle board. My particular Mark V combo no longer has the original speaker mounting screws in it so I am only speculating if the stock screws would be long enough. The Red back sounds similar to a V30 blended with the Celestion Crème Alnico 90W speaker with a slight vintage voice to it but yet sounds very aggressive when pushed hard. This speaker does have a long break in period. On the Clean channel it was amazing out of the box. The higher gain channels required a few months of use before the midrange would show up as well as the top end. It does have some roll off on the higher notes but sounds great once you open the volume up. Recommended method for mounting is rear of baffle (same way the MC90 is mounted). The plastic cover on the magnet does add some additional surface area but preamp and power tube maintenance is about the same as the stock speaker as the basket and magnet are about the same size and shape. What the recording reveals is the natural tone of the speaker but what it did not capture was the true nature of the speaker’s character in the room or the immediate response and feel you get playing though it. I was running the amp with FX loop active so I can use the global master volume control. Also I had the tone controls on the mixer to eliminate the intensity of the treble above 10kHz. It is not exactly a dull sounding speaker by any means with respect to the high frequency roll off characteristic which is actually a benefit with the Mark V as it may have the tendency to turn into an ice pick or breaking glass tone monster if you are a bit aggressive with the treble and presence controls in association with a high gain setting. The feel of the guitar and quick response of the speaker makes the Mark V a pleasure to play as it is really easy to ring out some interesting harmonics even at reduced volume settings. Speaker flatulence is noted at lower volume levels (bedroom level) especially when palm muting the strings for a chugging sound. Raise the bar on the volume control and it roars and tightens up and the subtle fart becomes an authoritative punch with plenty of grind to shake the floor and everything else in the room. Definitely a speaker worthy for a combo amp that is 90W+. I pushed it hard with the JP-2C and I could not get this speaker to break up. If the speaker was alive and could talk, I would think its response to the JP-2C would be “Is that all you got?”
Next in line was the Electro Voice EVM12L Black Label speaker ($269.00-$299.00): 300W version of the Classic. This speaker takes some abuse just as much as the Celestion Red Back speaker. It may be possible to mount this speaker in the stock position assuming the mounting screws are long enough but the beefy aluminum basket and huge diameter magnet will pose a few challenges to preamp tube replacement. Its overall depth (basket, gasket and magnet driver) is similar to the MC90. The EV measured depth is 5.25 inches compared to the Red Back which is 5.4 inches deep (which should be about the same for the MC90). Why the preamp replacement challenge? It is the shape of the aluminum basket which makes tube replacement a challenge in removal and installation of the aluminum tube shields. The last thing you want to do is drop a tube into the speaker and then try to retrieve it. Front baffle mounting would be the best solution as this is the method by which Mesa used to mount the EVM12L Black Shadow speaker in the Mark III combo. That will reduce the intrusion of the speaker basket in the combo cavity by three quarters of an inch. That is a big help especially when it comes to tube replacement.
One thing to point out for front mounting, the speaker will not fit into the opening of the baffle. I had to sand the baffle hole by small amounts to fit the EV speaker. Best to use an air driven tool and a sanding drum if you have such available. It could be handled by a hand drill and sanding drum if you are careful enough not to sand a divot in one spot. Do not use a router as that would be more difficult since the baffle is not removable. The next thing to do is to modify the grill frame where the speaker rim intersects the frame. That is where a router comes in as some material needs to be removed from the frame on the back side. Since I bought the combo shell used when I converted my Mark V head to a combo I planned on using the EV speaker from the beginning. So I was already set for the EV speaker.
Yeah, it is a staple in guitar amps one fine day in the late 1980’s if not earlier. To me this was the pinnacle of Mesa Mark III. You can push it hard and it delivers or run soft and it still provides some pleasure. One speaker that dishes out what you put into it. Tone is a bit flat if you are used to the V30 or MC90 speaker. This may be part of the sterility of the speaker. The other is the feel it provides as the response time of the speaker is a bit slow compared to a V30 or the Red back (if you have not had the luxury of driving both V30 and EV in separate cabinets you are missing out on something unique but the response time of both speakers driven from the same source can be noted, it is not much but the differences are audible) In the recording I did not change any of the settings on the amp to compensate for the different speaker in hopes to reveal the tonal differences. This time I played the guitar for each section vs. using a recorded guitar track. I left all of the settings as is and compared it to a picture I took at the beginning of the comparison. Amp placement was approximate as the amp was placed back in the taped outline of its original position. I will let the recoding do the rest for how it sounds relative to the other speakers.
Organic Timbre Rhapsody G12F (direct for $209.00): Now for something familiar yet completely different. At first glance it appears like an EV clone. Paper texture of the cone looks identical down to the dust cap except for the printed logo. The surrounding webbing is very similar to the EV black label speaker (which is what was used on the Mesa Black Shadow EVM12) but that is about it. The aluminum frame casting is not identical and actually was design for installation in mind since it is lacking the casting relief on the back of the rim. The spokes of the basket are also shaped differently. The material used on the spider is felt or leather like in appearance and not as coarsely threaded doped fabric. The Voice coil wire connectors are also different than the EV. Where the other areas of good engineering changes are in the wire posts. Yes the spring loaded pressure posts are there but something else too, solder or clip tabs to aid in multi speaker hookup. Ever try to wire up 4 EV’s in a 412 cab? The OTR has that covered for simplicity as you can either solder, use a female quick connect or the spring post or both. Then there is the ceramic magnet driver with something a bit different from the EV driver. Thick steel plates on both sides of the ceramic core to couple the magnetic field (same magnet driver design as the MC90 and or V30 speaker, I believe the end caps on the ceramic core used on the EV is aluminum). The voice coil and magnetic pole is rear vented just like the EV as well as the MC90. It is heavier than the EVM12L black label speaker. One last thing to point out… if you have bored out the speaker hole for front mounting, you will have to make the hole a bit bigger to fit this speaker (it is not much as there was plenty of wood between the screw holes and the edge of the speaker hole after I widened the opening for a good fit). When I made the recording, it is the first time I had heard the speaker so it is fresh out of box (green and not broken in yet). I thought the one speaker in the comparison was optimum for the clean channel, think again…. This Organic Timbre Rhapsody G12F won the clean door prize. Grind your teeth when you smile as the crunch will explode with a new sound. There is some similarity to the Redback and V30 but yet has a slight EV character but not sterile by any means. Response time seems about the same as the EV but that may work its way closer to the Redback as this speaker is not broken in yet. Both the Redback and EV speaker had a few months of use to a few years of use. I can definitely tell the difference between the OTR-G12F and the EVM12L especially in the upper frequency response. The EV can really become an ice pick if you let it where as the OTR has more roll off on the upper range and is much better than the Redback. It falls in between the two. For low level or bedroom level playing the OTR remained tight, no flub like the Redback or dominant lows like the EV. I have not opened up the throttle yet to drive it hard as I would rather allow for some break in before slapping the voice coil into oblivion like I did with the MC90 (reason why it was not part of the comparison, I just do not have any luck with that speaker as that makes #3, it never performed well at elevated volume levels and I was not too comfortable with the tone anyways.)
Now I have to debate what I will install in the 1x12 extension cab….Redback or the EV? That is a tough call but I think I will have to hear what happens with either….. Once I break in this behemoth of a speaker I may end up buying a few more to refurbish my old OS Recto cab I have loaded with EV speakers. A mix of Redback and OTR may sound interesting….
If you made it this far…. Here is the link for the recording…. Don’t mind the mess as my hands were killing me just to get this done. Spent an entire day trying to find the right position for the mics, recorded several takes and repeated until I just could not go any further until the next day with the idea to use the Vertical 212 as the reference.
Here is the link to the recording:
https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/red-ev-otrwav
