Rig Setup help - Two amp heads with Axe FX (V / JP2C)

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Thaymz

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Hi fellow Boogie fans

Apologies in advance this is a longish post.

I have a problem. Probably the best problem I could ask for but a problem none the less that I can't work out. Hoping those with more knowledge / experience with amp setups might be able to provide some ideas on possible rig / routing options.

My current setup is as follow:

Gear
- Mark V
- Axe FX II
- Torpedo Reload
- Mesa Vertical Rectifier 2x12
- Apogee Quartet

Setup
- Mark V is running 4CM with the Axe FX allowing for both tube / Axe FX presets.
- USB from the Axe feeds the DI straight into Logic.
- Mesa speaker out goes into the Reload functioning both as a power attenuator to control speaker volume and load box which feeds into the Quartet / Logic. IR's are added in Logic. Cab is mic'd which also feeds into logic through another input on the Quartet.
- Axe FX presets and V channel changing managed by FCB1010 Midi foot controller.

This setup allows me to record DI / Loadbox / Mic simultaneously, Reamp the DI back through the rig, monitor using the 2x12 and / or DAW and headphones seamlessly all without changing a single cable or setting. Although reamping requires 1 setting change on the Axe. For me, its the perfect setup.

So the issue is I just bought a JP2C and don't know if I can incorporate into the rig and keep the same level of convenience. I know it's probably a lot to ask but between the hardware there's a lot of I/Os and just want to make sure I explore all options before adding new hardware which I might not need.

The aim is to be able to use my foot controller, to be able to switch from V to JP2C based on the preset. Ideally being able to use both power sections and through the single 2x12 speaker cab would be great too but based on my research and some limitations I may have to choose one.

The Axe has a Left and R signal, so I've worked out that I should be able run the FX loop block as either L or R switching from Mark V to JP2C preamps running 7CM. When it comes to the power amp section, dummy load, slave out etc, I have no idea how I can make use of these. Ideally, I would want to use the Power section of the JP2C given the transformer that is used on the assumption that the benefit of that transformer is not necessarily in the preamp sound.

Possible solutions that may or may not work
- Get another Reload and speaker cab (not preferred due to cost / space). Plus not sure if I'm keeping both amps at this stage although I plan to.
- Continue to route the Mark V speaker out to Reload and then slave out to JP2C somehow routing that signal back through the JP2C power section. Not sure how or if this works given the 7CM signal routing. This way the Mark V will have a dummy load and direct load signal to DAW and the JP2C runs through to Speaker Cab and Cab clone DI for direct recording. Given the forced speaker simulation on the cab clone I'd prefer a direct out option but don't think there is one on the JP2C.
- Any other options with the slave out or current outputs that I'm overlooking?
- Potentially there's some sort of switcher A / B device that I can add in to the signal chain but would need to maintain the Axe FX 4/7CM integration?
- Any other hardware I could add?

I've been racking my brain and trying to research with no luck given how unique some setups can be. Any help / ideas suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The amp's not here yet and won't be for a while so I won't be able to do any trial and error until then.

Below are the output options on the Axe FX and Reload

Axe FX


Reload


Thanks in advance for any help!
 
Without getting too into the weeds yet: When you use both L and R inputs into the Axe (or better yet, when you use just a mono input into a stereo signal) are you able to control the pan of it, or which output it leads to?

For example, if you're got Guitar -> Mono Axe input, I assume you can build into your patch whether it plays back on the L, R, or both outputs via panning controls? That would allow you to program your A/B/Y functionality into patches using the Axe.

Now trickier, can you pan the signal from the Loop returns? ie, when you go Guitar -> Axe L IN, Axe L Send->Mark V In, Mark V Effects Send->Axe return L, can can you take that effects return signal on L, and then divert it to Output R and therefore send the Output R -> JP2C Loop reeturn?

That way you could use panning to mix and match preamps and power amps.
 
hi

I'm not sure tbh, I'll research and give it a go. Given I only have one amp at the moment I guess the only way to try that would be to change to cabling loop return to R. I'll come back with the results.

Is it possible to slave from the V to the JP2C?

That way when the best FX is routed to L it plays through the V preamp and then slaves out to the JP2Cs power amp (bypassing the JPs pre). When the FX loop is outed R trough the Axe patch then it just runs through the JP Pre and poweramp? Presume I'd need to load down the V in this option if it's possible. This method would at least allow me to access all of the V And JP pre modes and then run it through the JPs power amp. Worst case scenario I think I'd be ok to drop the V power section given the reputation of the JPc transformer and what impact it has.
 
Yeah, that's what I'm hoping if you can criss-cross L and R signals.
Code:
guitar -> Axe Mono In \/ -> Axe L send -> JP2c In -> JP2C Send -> Axe L Return \/  -> Axe L Output -> JP2C Return -> Speaker/cab clone/etc
                      /\ -> Axe R send -> MKV In  -> MKV Send  -> Axe R Return /\ -> Axe R Output -> MKV Return  -> Speaker load

Assuming you can change pan then at the first X decision you can choose to send to the JP2C or MKV preamp. Then at the second X you can choose the JP2C or MKV power amp. Letting you either mix and match, or more simply just route everything to the L Output and leave the Mark V on a speaker load with it's power section unused.
 
Based on my testing yesterday the I could only pan at the FX Send level through the Axe. I was able to cut the signal entirely to the L side being the V pre but not able to cut the signal to the power section (although panning to R seemed to reduce the output speaker volume significantly). I tried panning the FX Block, Volume pan block and the overall outputs.

If I haven't missed any options in the Axe presets are there any options using the slave out from the V?

Assuming the JP's FX Send and return would be used in the Axes R using 4CM where would the V's slave out go?

Thanks for all the suggestions btw.
 
I'd ask on the Fractal forums or email Cliff/their support. He seems pretty reactive to implementing what people need, and I can't think of any technological issue that would prevent implementing a bit of A/B or L/R swapping.

Slave isn't that different than the effects send, just later in the circuit, and lets the power amp still run. You'd ideally run it into the effects return of the JP2c, though you might be doubling up some of the power amp tone affects that way. You'd probably need some sort of A/B box config to let you use it.

What if you didn't worry about panning, and just did this: Guitar -> Axe FX -> L/R Send to MKV/JP2c sending the same signal. That way both preamps are always being fed by the same input. (or pan it if you want a sanity check in case you load the amp you didn't expect).

Then use an A/B box to take both their effects sends and switch between them, taking the output into the Axe FX return L. Then you can swap which preamp is fed into your Left channel return signal, and just use the Left Output into the JP2C Effects Return, and tun the Mark V with a load box of some sort and not seeing any signal back. A MIDI A/B might let you keep controlling it with patches.



Code:
guitar -> Axe Mono In - -> Axe L send -> JP2c In -> JP2C Send -> -  A/B box -> Axe L Return  -> Axe L Output -> JP2C Return -> Speaker/cab clone/etc
                      \ -> Axe R send -> MKV In  -> MKV Send  -> /                                          ... MKV Return  -> Speaker load
You could also substitue the Slave out for the Send if you found you preferred the sound.
 
Thankyou, I'll check out some Midi AB boxes, if I can control with the footswitch that sounds like exactly the setup I want.

Yeah I've posted on the fractal forum but no responses as yet. I'll shoot them an email in case there's a method through the Axe FX that I've overlooked.

Cheers
 
Hi

Thought I'd provide an update. I have received the JP and experimenting with different ways of integrating into my rig. I was able to partially achieve what I wanted above. I have the V in the L channel and JP in the R. At this stage I'm only able to get the JP preamp in the Axe signal chain running through the V power amp. Benefits being I can use the triode 10/45/90 and Variac but unfortunately means no Graphic EQ or Presence dials from the JP as they are in the JP's power section. Which is unfortunate given the flexibility of the presence dial.

It's still a work in progress as it doesn't seem to be running with the Fractal recommended 'Stereo' option for input 2 and only works with sum L + R. The impact for me being double the background hum. Hopefully this is just an error on my part and I can resolve to reduce the noise.

At some point I might look at the option of getting a second speaker for the JP output depending on whether I keep the V and if I resolve the above issue which I think I will at this stage.

Curious though, the V's GEQ doesn't seem to impact the tone either whether running through the JP or the V. I thought it would have given the V is sending the power amp signal to the speaker.

If anyone is interested in this type of setup (two amp heads 7CM with Axe FX let me know and I'll send the preset.

The tonal possibilities are glorious. I'm in absolute heaven with this setup.
 
Ah, right! The JP-2C would have switched to the Mark IIC+s classic Effects loop position, which is
Lead Master -> Reverb -> Loop -> Master -> (GEQ) -> Power Amp.

In the Mark V, they moved it later in the chain, so it's
Reverb -> CH3 Master -> (GEQ) -> Send Level -> Loop -> Output Level -> Power Amp.

So going from the JP-2C Send -> Mark V Return you bypass both GEQs. An unfortunate side effect of the loop working better behind it in the Mark V but tradition dictating it return to the middle in the JP-2C. I guess in the meantime you could add an EQ block for shaping the JP-2C signal in the Axe FX.
 
IronSean said:
Ah, right! The JP-2C would have switched to the Mark IIC+s classic Effects loop position, which is
Lead Master -> Reverb -> Loop -> Master -> (GEQ) -> Power Amp.

In the Mark V, they moved it later in the chain, so it's
Reverb -> CH3 Master -> (GEQ) -> Send Level -> Loop -> Output Level -> Power Amp.

So going from the JP-2C Send -> Mark V Return you bypass both GEQs. An unfortunate side effect of the loop working better behind it in the Mark V but tradition dictating it return to the middle in the JP-2C. I guess in the meantime you could add an EQ block for shaping the JP-2C signal in the Axe FX.

If I switch the V and JP so that I run through JP in the L and use the JP power amp, I should then be able to use the JP Presence controls and GEQ right? I'll give that a go tonight when I get a chance.
 
Yup. In fact, you can double up on GEQ if you want because then both the Mark V and JP-2C EQs would be in the gain :twisted:
 
IronSean said:
Yup. In fact, you can double up on GEQ if you want because then both the Mark V and JP-2C EQs would be in the gain :twisted:

Perfect!

I think ultimately I'll go with this setup, keeping the JP power section (including GEQ & Presence) and losing out on the V's Variac and Simulclass.

I'm waiting for the Torpedo Captor to become available as a low cost, high quality loadbox for the V's speaker out before I can run it this way. Hopefully it's available soon.
 
I'm at a concert so I need to read this closer but if I can run 7CM with two amps using my FX8, I'm pretty sure you can with the AxeFX too. Just takes some creative routing. Also I know the JP2C is MIDI capable but is the Mark V? I'm thinking it's not. So you may want to look into something like the RJM mini amp gizmo. You can achieve what you want most likely. They're right though...you need to go on the Rigs and Routing section of the Fractal Forum.
 
IronSean said:
Ah, right! The JP-2C would have switched to the Mark IIC+s classic Effects loop position, which is
Lead Master -> Reverb -> Loop -> Master -> (GEQ) -> Power Amp.

In the Mark V, they moved it later in the chain, so it's
Reverb -> CH3 Master -> (GEQ) -> Send Level -> Loop -> Output Level -> Power Amp.

So going from the JP-2C Send -> Mark V Return you bypass both GEQs. An unfortunate side effect of the loop working better behind it in the Mark V but tradition dictating it return to the middle in the JP-2C. I guess in the meantime you could add an EQ block for shaping the JP-2C signal in the Axe FX.

So I've received the Captor and switched the routing to use the JP in the left side and it all works great. Curiously though, when playing through Channel 3 on the V, it seems the mode switching no longer has an impact on tone. I sort of expected that for Extreme mode as the tone is shaped by negative feedback in the V's power amp, which would no longer be in the chain, but curious that the IV mode no longer has an impact or at least far less an impact than it did before. Unless I'm going crazy.
 
So a further update and a couple of questions.

Since receiving the Captor about a month ago I used the JP as my left channel which was running to my speaker, and the V's output just going to the captor. In this setup, I had the 7CM working but when routing through the R FX Loop going into the V's preamp it would totally bypass the power amp. Which at the time I thought was fine but then I shortly realised that the modes on Channel 3 of the V are largely dependent on the power amp section. So I did some reading and tried connecting the V's slave out to the Axe FX return with the intention that it would retain the power amp tone of the V.

Worked a charm and I now have 2 fully functioning glorious amps setup through the axe with one guitar lead and one midi footswitch and each channel of both amps is accessible.

My research suggests the slave drops the signal to line level but just wanted to check:

- the Slave out signal won't damage the Axe?
- Does this mean the V's tone is shaped by both the V and JP's power amp?

Thanks in advance!
 
Hi All

Over the weekend I moved some gear around to de-clutter my room. As a result I had the challenge of unplugging everything and setting it up again. To make thing a bit easier for next time, and I guess to better understand the signal flow, I started to create a cheat sheet for myself as I kind of fumbled my way through it to begin with and didn't really understand the signal path.

With Mesa's recent release of the Amp switchers I thought I might share this in case you had a similar setup and wanting to switch using the Axe FX instead.

JP2C - Routing and Axe Grid


JP2C - Axe Block Settings


V - Routing and Axe Grid


V - Axe Block Settings


Axe FX - Routing and Axe Grid


Foot Controller - Example Settings


I've set up this bank is 6 String guitars with standard tuning with the JP2c for main rhythm and lead. - The footswitch is able to change the JP2c channels through midi and the V channels through the channel relays. I also have access to the JP2C GEQ through midi on the midi controller and the V GEQ through the V's footswitch.

Other banks I've set up include:
- Bank for 6 string guitars with the GEQ engaged as a clean boost for low output or passive pickups.
- Bank for 7 string guitars with Shred engaged on the Rhythm in Preset 4
- Equivalent banks for Mark V as rhythm and lead in Preset 4 and 5
- Bank for Axe FX only

Worth noting that my rig has only the one cab. If I had a second cab there'd be no need for a load box or to slave out the V and the Axe settings would be a little different with the volume panning.

If you have similar gear and wondering how to route, set the blocks on the Axe or just generally what possibilities you have with the Axe FX in the rig, hope you found this helpful.

Cheers
Themi
 
Well to make matters a tad more interesting and the setup just that little bit more complex, I've gone and picked up an original c+. And what a dream it is.

I'm managed to incorporate this into the rig running in stereo when using Mark V crunch / c+ mode or JP channel 2.

The tone is ridiculous.

For anyone with multiple amps, I couldn't recommend the axe fx more for routing between them and control effects with a single footswitch.

The Rig by Thaymz, on Flickr
 

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