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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
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Location: North Carolina
The lack of brightness with the stock tubes did not last for very long. Ouch. Hopefully the video that I am working on will at least reveal the truth for those who think it is just internet B.S. We do have some believers and this fact is spreading to other clubs and forums. You have started a revolutionary movement in the fight for tone APEMAN! :P It is almost like a religion and there are those that doubt the faith that a tube with lower gain would actually improve a high gain amp. Lack of understanding what a triode circuit is and how it works along with technology that has been in use long before I was born. Extreme also refers to Extreme ICE and gets worse if you use the preset on the GEQ. Waiting for the amp to cool down so I can swap some preamp tubes. This time, it appears the camera has an auto gain control, sort of compression for loud sources. I added three more microphones to the mix, SE Ribbon mic, EV RE320, and an Audix D6. I stuffed the EV and Audix mics into a foam cradle (this was material our sales people were tossing out from one of those formable interior sales cases and they did not need the foam cubes/ bricks so I asked if they did not mind if I were to take it. Knew I would have a use for it sooner or later. I guess that make me a trash picker.... The dog is pissed at me now. He will get over it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:28 am 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
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Compare these vids against your extreme channel and your vid... Extreme gets used in all of these vids at some point.
Extreme does not equal ice pick per say.
bandit2013 wrote:


Markageddon wrote:
Part II:


Mark V Part I:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehfp1jLDdpk

Mark V Part II: (The new one, I prefer the tones pulled off in this one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHylt7aBqug

Mesa V25 Part III:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7epyD2QUm0E


Even in part 1 (which I think is the harshest, as its not working the power section too hard) I'd never describe it as that kind of Icepicky even at high gain. But yet I do hear what you mean with your amps (mainly the JP, accentuated maybe by it's modern scoop feel) in that vid you put up. And even with off axis angle micing like you used here..so must be quite a pronounced effect, if thats after a mic method known to tame things a bit in that area.
Yeah the preset EQ needs some diligent channel/gain setting up, to be used effectively. Low presence works best with that method in my experience thus far. But I rarely use preset. Almost always 'sliders' or 'sliders' off. Way better control there. As preset is a bit scooped/cutting Its best to not dial cutting dial settings too whilst its in use.

Also I think switching heads but keeping mic position on same cab for the comparisons would also work better, as theres too much variance here, listening and watching the setup. Thats where the switcher demo aspect made this more complicated. But since you were demoing the switch, job well done. Clearly works well....!

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Mark V
Mark V:25
Mark III (Red Stripe)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
Yes, the dual cab approach is a bit complex. Not all mics are created equal as well as the speakers in each cabinet. I used the newest pair of cabinets that essentially sound the same.

As for Extreme mode, not icy with the 12AT7. However things do change with all stock tubes. At least with my Mark V, Extreme voice and preset typically resulted in glass shatter characteristics in the ear drum. The Vertical 212 cabinet does a fine job at taming that sound quality more so than an OS Recto slant front cab loaded with EVM12L Black label speakers. Sure that has more bottom end range than the vertical 212 but is not forgiving on the top end of the frequency spectrum. I would get the same effect if I ran the combo speaker as that is an EVM12L black label. The farther you place it off the ground the brighter it becomes. Point of reference or perspective. Odd that the 412 cab does not seem to have that effect as I have placed it on top of the Horizontal 212 cab. Too damn heavy to lift for setup. I chose the V30 cabs as that is what most would be using. At least the Vertical 212 would be a good reference vs an OS Recto 412 but many have that too. The mini project using only one cab did reveal some ice in Extreme voice but the recording after rendering compressed the top end so it sounds much better in the video than in reality. At least for this one, I zoomed in on the CH3 controls only. All was done in Pentode power mode. Took a while to synchronize the audio track with the video and once I got it without that reverberation effect if out of sync, I cut the audio from the video source and merged the rendered audio track with the video content. This is all microphone content, no cab clone (Mark V does not have it) or attenuation (could have done so but opted not this time). I have to admit that I am very impressed with the Focusrite preamp. When I do the next (comparing the JP-2C to the TC-100 I may use the cab clone and blend it with the mics using my soundcraft mixer. Still do not have a DAW program as I could do further editing to the sound on each mic channel from the soundcraft mixer. For now, I will have to settle on the TASCAM DP-32 recorder. I am rendering a HD version of the video, did a reduced size first and if the video quality of the conversion is the same I will use the smaller file size to share. It would take a long time to transfer a 4K file but since youtube converts the file to a max of 1080p or lower may just go with the smaller sized file. I captured the video under low light conditions last night as it is not very bright in the room even during the day time. I need to see if I can fine a longer HDMI cable for the small camera since taping it to the mic stand was not very useful as it will not zoom in on demo mode. I could always just do a PIP if I can manage to sync the audio in the video like I did with the 12AX7 vs 12AT7 project. Love the 4K camera though. Even the new Pinnacle program works quite well. (Always found video editing to be easy with Pinnacle vs others I have used in the past). Will see how things go. The X7 vs T7 I did adjust settings on the fly as best I could. I did not run gain to max on the X7 but I did with the T7 part. The video may not reveal the true nature of the beast as well as I would hope. Besides it has gotten boring to watch over and over again....No wonder why producers never watch their own movies, they have seen it a thousand times before releasing.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
This video is too long for enjoyment but it starts with all Mesa 12AX7 tubes in the first half. Second half, I replaced the Mesa 12AX7 tube in V4 with a JAN/Phillips 12AT7. The top end may not be as brittle as it was in the room. Actually the amp did not sound all that bad this time. This is not a demo of my skills as I have none to share. More or less, it is a tone comparison to the JAN/Phillips 12AT7 and what it can do for you if you so desire to try it.

https://youtu.be/YN96iZnPEoM


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
Posts: 209
I think that the way you're dialling is definitely inviting the brittle thing, if you don't mind me saying....

The high presence and high 6600, combined with dial section settings are a big part of it. Together with the thinness/lack of gain.
The amp sounds better with treb at like 4-5 o'clock and with gain up a bit, and the 6600 slider being at mid level, presence 11.
Boosting the 2200 helps fill in the high end in a nicer way, Certainly for the sorts of sounds that the riffs you play reflect the need for. You can add more lows to in the preamp before flub too with the AT7s. All great for getting smooth crystalline gain with the sort of sustain you're after for Glimore licks with delays too.
Rip roaring classy and smooth in the highs that way. Go ahead, try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 2nd MarkV vid shows these kinds of settings in action.

Alternatively, High sliders and presence real low 9 o'clock to off works to the same end, but offering a different flavour.
Hope this helps.

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Mark V:25
Mark III (Red Stripe)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
Markageddon wrote:
I think that the way you're dialling is definitely inviting the brittle thing, if you don't mind me saying....

The high presence and high 6600, combined with dial section settings are a big part of it. Together with the thinness/lack of gain.
The amp sounds better with treb at like 4-5 o'clock and with gain up a bit, and the 6600 slider being at mid level, presence 11.
Boosting the 2200 helps fill in the high end in a nicer way, Certainly for the sorts of sounds that the riffs you play reflect the need for. You can add more lows to in the preamp before flub too with the AT7s. All great for getting smooth crystalline gain with the sort of sustain you're after for Glimore licks with delays too.
Rip roaring classy and smooth in the highs that way. Go ahead, try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 2nd MarkV vid shows these kinds of settings in action.

Alternatively, High sliders and presence real low 9 o'clock to off works to the same end, but offering a different flavour.
Hope this helps.


As I said before, I did not have the brittlness this go around with all 12AX7 and was able to dial up the treble, gain and presence. Before I did any mods, it always sounded honky or too brittle even with the treble all the way off, gain at 9am, presence dialed out and the GEQ set differently. Now it is like it should be and was getting some really good tone from the amp with both tubes. I was also pushing the settings a bit more as the amp was just delivering what I wanted. I am actually pleased with the Mark V as it is now. I think the minor tweaks I did to the circuits helped tremendously. I was having fun with it. Not sure what to play when I made the recording, just did the tone made me think of. "Run like Hell" was the first time I tried to play it with delay and both parts at the same time. Generally I would play the one part and the other guitarist. Not perfect but is what it is. Usually play that song on my Carvin Bolt C (like a fender strat with a floyd rose, have one of those too). Nooding is the better term as was more focused on the tone and character of the amp that what I was playing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:33 am 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
Posts: 209
bandit2013 wrote:
Markageddon wrote:
I think that the way you're dialling is definitely inviting the brittle thing, if you don't mind me saying....

The high presence and high 6600, combined with dial section settings are a big part of it. Together with the thinness/lack of gain.
The amp sounds better with treb at like 4-5 o'clock and with gain up a bit, and the 6600 slider being at mid level, presence 11.
Boosting the 2200 helps fill in the high end in a nicer way, Certainly for the sorts of sounds that the riffs you play reflect the need for. You can add more lows to in the preamp before flub too with the AT7s. All great for getting smooth crystalline gain with the sort of sustain you're after for Glimore licks with delays too.
Rip roaring classy and smooth in the highs that way. Go ahead, try. You may be pleasantly surprised.
The 2nd MarkV vid shows these kinds of settings in action.

Alternatively, High sliders and presence real low 9 o'clock to off works to the same end, but offering a different flavour.
Hope this helps.


As I said before, I did not have the brittlness this go around with all 12AX7 and was able to dial up the treble, gain and presence. Before I did any mods, it always sounded honky or too brittle even with the treble all the way off, gain at 9am, presence dialed out and the GEQ set differently. Now it is like it should be and was getting some really good tone from the amp with both tubes. I was also pushing the settings a bit more as the amp was just delivering what I wanted. I am actually pleased with the Mark V as it is now. I think the minor tweaks I did to the circuits helped tremendously. I was having fun with it. Not sure what to play when I made the recording, just did the tone made me think of. "Run like Hell" was the first time I tried to play it with delay and both parts at the same time. Generally I would play the one part and the other guitarist. Not perfect but is what it is. Usually play that song on my Carvin Bolt C (like a fender strat with a floyd rose, have one of those too). Nooding is the better term as was more focused on the tone and character of the amp that what I was playing.


Sounded brittle to me. Just saying. May just be a taste thing, but the suggestion I made settingswise will objectively increase smoothness and sustain should you want it, is all..
Fair enough, if you're happy with it, thats the main thing.

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Mark V:25
Mark III (Red Stripe)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:52 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
Did it sound brittle with the 12AT7? The 12AX7 was brittle but not as it usually is. I could have taken a different approach and dialed in the amp differently for the 12AX7 part. It was on the bright side without having the headphones on but I did not get the shot noise effect, close but not quite there. That would have been different had I used either of the OS Recto 412 cabs or if I had run Extreme on the preset GEQ setting. Could be my hearing too. I did have the amp on the bright side on purpose to reveal if any, the differences between the 12AX7 and 12AT7. Yes I set the amp tone and GEQ with my eyes to start off which is the mistake of most who venture into the Mark V territory. I generally do not do this and use my ear for the set up, but it is not often I use the Mark V. My go to amps are the JP-2C or the TC-100 or 50.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:06 am 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
Posts: 209
Would have been all the more reason to have dialled up the treble and gain then, I would have thought, if you were after highlighting the dangerzone area for the icepick/fizz. The effect is more noticeably demonstrated at higher levels of gain.
Thats why I ramped up the gain in my vids and played metally stuff. If its ever gonna rear it's ugly head; its in that kind of situation, I think. The sound of the cascade changes also with those new diallable heights also.

New vid being done, btw: AT7'd Mark III and a friend's Mark IV that being brought over tonight also to be modded with the same tubes from the III. To be recorded in the same conditions as the last vids for comparison to the V/V:25.
Should be up tommorrow night.

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Mark V:25
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwS_EPO-99s - Mark IV Double 12at7 mod vid. Its a Mark IVB.
My friend (who's amp this is) plays a Suhr which is in frame as he does so. The rest of the shots are me with the V. Both guitars with their stock pick ups....

Tungsol in V1 and V2,
JJ ax7 in V3
Mesa 12 AT7s in V4 (second high gain stage) and V5 (phase inverter)

A variety of setups, triode, pentode, different presence vs treb and gain settings, class A and Simulclass power, etc Harmonics was constantly on though. And the selected different guitars test the range extensively.

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Mark V
Mark V:25
Mark III (Red Stripe)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:52 am 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
Posts: 3088
Location: North Carolina
That clip makes me wish I had kept my Mark IV. Sounds awesome.
:shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:31 am 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
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Cheers. Yeah it really stood up to the 12AT7 challenge well. Sounds way better it did before, and could do more. The owner was rightfully blown away. (He hadnt at that time had the pleasure with the prevs mods in person but liked the sound implied by the vids and bravely took the step forward)
The amp loved the tungsols too, which ensure purity of signal path and let loads of sound through to the subsequent stages.
Hearing a real continuity/consistency of result across all the Marks so far with that tactic.
The Modded V and IV, III are almost indistinguishable in dialling approaches like the ones I was saying about above. Those kinda settings get these sorts of sounds with the 12AT7s and Tungsols..so whilst those settings might not be your cup of tea, it does produce this kind sound in these amps. Each to their own though. Gonna do the III today, and Vs edit it with the IV in one vid, the V in another and so on. Will add them to join this playlist viewers can get to comparison Theres a fair bit of commonality.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Mark III

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_VlJNj5joc

The Mark III double 12AT7 swap vid....!

Enjoy...

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Mark V:25
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Triple Recto

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:31 am
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Location: North Carolina
I did not know you do animation..... Love the pots and sliders moving for each voice. Made the amp come alive other than its powerful tone. Sweet. Now I wish I never sold the Mark III. (nah, too much hassle going from high gain to clean, wait a second, when do I ever switch between channels on the fly, barely, probably because I got used to the Mark III for 24 years and used it as a set and forget. )


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:13 am 
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Mark III

Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:01 pm
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'Reanimation', maybe hahaha.....

Its fitting with on a quest for sledgehammer tone to have Peter Gabriel video like appearance to it haha

Clean to Lead is easy, but getting the channel 2 sound to line up with those though? 2channel amp, live. 3 channel in the home or recording. Besides: A amp, B amp. Switcher. You've got that as an option...

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