Mark V:25 IIC+ mode (!)

I owned a big daddy Mark V for two years and a Mark III for the last 24 years.

Today I picked up a Mark V:25 and OMFG IF THE REAL MARK IIC+ IS ANYTHING LIKE THIS I CAN SEE WHY PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR CRAP OVER THE REAL DEAL.

Mark IIC+ mode on the V:25 is awesome. It's ornery like I've only seen my Mark III be and it's night and day compared to the IIC+ mode on my old full-sized Mark V. It's the kind of amp that could have inspired Master Of Puppets, which the Mark V never really felt like to me.

Wow. Just wow. I love this thing.

I agree. The amp is killer! There's plenty more greatness in there as well. IV smokes. And the three modes on channel one would make for a awesome amp if there were the only modes available. Wait til you try Crunch.

Prepare to fall in love. The V25 is THAT good.

Maybe your big V needs new tubes?

I'm telling ya. In 20-30 years there will be a following for the Mark V:25 like there are for the IIC+ and Pre 500 Rectos.
It's the most soulful and useful amp I've ever owned.

I'm curious to know how much of the difference is due to the effects loop bypass and lack of a master output?

Like I mentioned in another post, I spent all Monday night in 2C+ mode. Tested Mark IV and Extreme but just didn't sit as well in the mix for me like 2C+.

As I turned it up to drummer level I turned down the channel gain. There comes a point were you get just the right mix of preamp gain and power amp overdrive and it sounded amazing to me.

You will get no argument from me about 2C+ on the M25. Sounds amazing at drummer volume.

screamingdaisy said:

I'm curious to know how much of the difference is due to the effects loop bypass and lack of a master output?

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My first thought was that it felt like the faux volume 1 setting the mark v ships with (http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=67943&start=15#p467268) had gotten bumped up from 7.75 to 9 or 10.

That may not actually be the case but that's certainly what it feels like to me, and was certainly an area where my Mark III surpassed my Mark V - I could dial in a lot more gain by bumping up volume 1 on the Mark III.

With the Mark V:25 I finally feel like I have an amp that can actually be as brawny or brawnier than my Mark III, which pretty much has me reeling.

BTW, I don't think it's just the tubes. I never felt like my Mark V was any more tepid than any other full-sized Mark Vs I'd ever heard.

ryjan said:

I'm telling ya. In 20-30 years there will be a following for the Mark V:25 like there are for the IIC+ and Pre 500 Rectos.
It's the most soulful and useful amp I've ever owned.

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I am starting to think you may be right.

screamingdaisy said:

I'm curious to know how much of the difference is due to the effects loop bypass and lack of a master output?

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After I read this^ I thought I might try bypassing the loops on my V and DR since I haven't played with that switch since I purchased the V. Holy hell! I don't think that switch will ever be used again. The Tone suck from G-Major is my effects loops is insane. The tone is incredible now. So luscious and juicey :evil:

barryswanson said:

screamingdaisy said:

I'm curious to know how much of the difference is due to the effects loop bypass and lack of a master output?

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After I read this^ I thought I might try bypassing the loops on my V and DR since I haven't played with that switch since I purchased the V. Holy hell! I don't think that switch will ever be used again. The Tone suck from G-Major is my effects loops is insane. The tone is incredible now. So luscious and juicey :evil:

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I did the same thing, with the same result.

Im stoked about the bypass sound, but I'm sad because I had managed to convince myself that I dialed in the loop to sound near transparent and this was a big wake up call.

IMO, Mesa makes a good loop... but there's only so much you can expect when all that additional circuitry is added.

I wonder how a Mini-Recto combo would do as a slave amp for my delay...

I've owned a couple of real IIC+ amps and a Mark V and I can tell you the Mark IIC+ mode on the V is NOTHING like the real thing. And I don't care what Doug West says, or what Petrucci gets paid to say. There's a reason why Mark V's have sold for as cheap as $1350 and real IIC+'s sell for over 4k.

But the little Mark V 25.....I gotta try it out!!!!!!

danyeo1 said:

I've owned a couple of real IIC+ amps and a Mark V and I can tell you the Mark IIC+ mode on the V is NOTHING like the real thing. And I don't care what Doug West says, or what Petrucci gets paid to say. There's a reason why Mark V's have sold for as cheap as $1350 and real IIC+'s sell for over 4k.

But the little Mark V 25.....I gotta try it out!!!!!!

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Actually Petrucci doesn't get paid to say anything, at least not by us.

And if you follow what Doug West says clearly - MKIIC+'s were all over the map tonally. Out of 30 you will hear nearly 30 different sounding amps. The Mark V IIC+ mode was modeled after his 2 personal favorite IIC+'s....and there is no way you could tell in a blind A/B test.

Authorized Boogie said:

danyeo1 said:

I've owned a couple of real IIC+ amps and a Mark V and I can tell you the Mark IIC+ mode on the V is NOTHING like the real thing. And I don't care what Doug West says, or what Petrucci gets paid to say. There's a reason why Mark V's have sold for as cheap as $1350 and real IIC+'s sell for over 4k.

But the little Mark V 25.....I gotta try it out!!!!!!

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Actually Petrucci doesn't get paid to say anything, at least not by us.

And if you follow what Doug West says clearly - MKIIC+'s were all over the map tonally. Out of 30 you will hear nearly 30 different sounding amps. The Mark V IIC+ mode was modeled after his 2 personal favorite IIC+'s....and there is no way you could tell in a blind A/B test.

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I don't doubt that a bit. Again, my own tinfoil hat theory was that the hard-wired volume level might be higher. Or it could be Screaming Daisy's theory about the fx loop. Or something completely unrelated.

In any case, I don't think that either theory would really cast any aspersions on the actual pre-amp match done between the 90 Watt Mark V's IIC+ mode and the original.

Anyway, I love my V:25. Thank you.

-Daniel

Bypassing the loop certainly makes a difference. I haven't been able to figure out a way to make the loop engaged and loop bypassed comparable. Either I'm missing something or maybe they just made it too complicated for the sake of being complicated. It's not about what's in the loop as much as what the amp sounds/feels like.

I'm used to my old Mark IV which had a true master volume situation.

Grundletaint said:

It's not about what's in the loop as much as what the amp sounds/feels like.

I'm used to my old Mark IV which had a true master volume situation.

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+1 on both counts. There's something about the "feel" of older Marks that I don't get from the newer, ultra-versatile versions. Newer models just seem stiffer to me, which may be a function of the changing musical styles? The amps may sound the same, but in my experience, it's a different playing experience.

dodger916 said:

Grundletaint said:

It's not about what's in the loop as much as what the amp sounds/feels like.

I'm used to my old Mark IV which had a true master volume situation.

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+1 on both counts. There's something about the "feel" of older Marks that I don't get from the newer, ultra-versatile versions. Newer models just seem stiffer to me, which may be a function of the changing musical styles? The amps may sound the same, but in my experience, it's a different playing experience.

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I spent a little time adjusting my approach yesterday and made some progress. I'm playing at home and won't have a chance to try with the band for another week or so, so there's a possibility this may change.

But here goes:

My main problem with the master output is that I tend to play at a lower volume than when it's bypassed. IF you match the output volume to what it is when it's bypassed, a lot of the feel comes back, but it's probably a lot louder than you're gonna want.

90 watt mode is your friend when using the loop at home. So far I think the lower watt modes work best when bypassed. I haven't spent too much time hashing this out but that's my initial impression. 90 watt and variac seem to be the best combo for around the house playing. I'd imagine the lower wattage settings will be OK with the loop engaged but it's gonna need to be turned up louder to feel right. This is probably why the sample settings in the manual are all 90 watt.

Change your settings. Use your ear. At lower volumes everything is going to be different. I found some great tones with settings I would never have expected and certainly wouldn't use in a full band scenario.

Don't give up. They wouldn't have released this amp if it weren't ready. It could have been a bit less confusing and more intuitive, IMO. It's certainly annoying that the loop and output are codependent.

But in a nutshell it really comes down to matching the output volume with the bypassed volume.

If anything, it's made me want to use less pedals and maybe drop the loop altogether.

I have used a ton of Mesas, Studio 22+, mark III/IV, rectoverb, roadsters etc. I have to say I absolutely love the IIc+ mode on the V25. I had started out with the Extreme mode, but moved to IIc+ after I realized there is a bit of unwanted noise in the extreme mode with MY particular settings.

So My signal chain is this Guitar>Tuner>Morley Wah>SP Comp>BB Plus>Amp Input>Eventide H9 in the loop

Although the IIc+ mode in channel two is the quietest, I find it has some dark and sinister sound behind it. It allows me to push the master a bit more. I keep the gain and treble below noon, the mid around 11 o'clock, the Bass at around 1 o'clock. I most often have the GEQ engaged.

I don't typically use this mode as my lead tone, but when I do, I use the BB Plus to boost it and get a very liquid tone out of it. Man I hate those adjectives.

My main tones come from my BB, the IIc+ channel is definitely growing on me and holds a soft spot when I practice at home.

Probably the most interesting data point I can offer:

On the big daddy Mark V, I spent most of my time in Mark IV mode on Channel 3. IIC+ mode felt pretty sterile by comparison whether I was in triode, full power, low power, or whatever wattage mode I was in.

On the Mark V:25, I strongly prefer Mark IIC+ mode. Hands down. It's a fire breather. Mark IV feels looser and bassier. Still good but IIC+ is an animal.

I was just hammering out Master of Puppets and Lamb of God on IIC+ mode on a freaking Epiphone 339 and it still sounded and felt monstrous.

Can't wait to get back home to my SGs again. So much brawn. I love this amp!

Edit: As I think I've mentioned previously, this is the first time my blue stripe Mark III has been completely benched by another amp. That's never happened before.

Has anyone ever weighed in on how IIC+ mode on the Mark V:25 compares to the real deal? Just curious.

dlpasco said:

Has anyone ever weighed in on how IIC+ mode on the Mark V:25 compares to the real deal? Just curious.

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I'm pretty sure I've read comparisons here somewhere.