Mesa MarkV / Saturation 'mod'

I apologise if this has been asked before but would the AT7 mod work on a Dual Rectifier?

royslead said:

I wasn't aware of the piezo driving everything on those. I had my ST300 built in 2011, it has GraphTech saddles on a TOM bridge. I had hoped to some day order another with a FLoyd, but My Jackson covers what the ST300 doesn't. I have always been a fan of Carvin, once I discovered them, including their amps. It's too bad they are out now, but that is for another thread. I may have to look in on my board to see, but I think you are right about it having a gain adjustment. The mag pickups in that are hot, too (Holdsworth in the nek and MSD22 in the bridge). I have a couple other guitars that I have yet to run through the amp, something I may enjoy tomorrow.

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As for the graphteh piezo saddles and the associated preamp, the piezo does not drive the mangetics or passives. Those still work as intended. Try this, pull the battery out of the back and see what happens. I did this with the DC600 just for kicks and I was surpirsed that the guitar did not go dead, even the piezo still worked. The piezo crystals do generate electrical energy if compressed and vibrations are imposed on the crystal. Note that without the battery, the guitar will not sound all that great. I have tried this with the DC400 and of course nothing worked except for the pull volume which bypass the electronic tone controls. With no battery installed, pull out the volume and you have standard passives with single tone control, push volume pot in and it becomes a mute circuit. I like the active tone control so I keep a battery in mine. I an uncertain if the ST300 with acoustic saddles will do this or not. May be similar to the system I have in the DC600, no battery = noisy sound, very distorted and the volume controls do nothing, all you hear is unaltered piezo signals.

As for Carvin guitars, they are still made but under the original company name Kiesel. They also separated the guitar manufacturing from the amps and audio and moved all of the tools and manufacturing to a new locaiton. If you ever want another Carvin guitar, look up Kiesel and there you go. Some models did get dropped. ST300 and the DC400. Everything else is still being made. My last guitar purchase I made with them I opted for the Carvin logo but that option is no longer available. Odd that my CT624C came in a Kiesel badged case but the used Kiesel DC600 came in a Carvin Badged case. Carvin audio (includes the amps and mixers) did disolve back in October last year. The amps were ok, but the guitars are tops to me, so I am greateful they are still building the guitars even though it is a different name now.

I did not thing the MSD22 were all that hot. Perhaps coupled with the preamp used for the piezo it would make a difference. I have a preference for the S22s as I have those on almost all of my Carvins except the Kiesel DC600 and the old Carvin DC200 (my first Carvin). Also the Two bolt's that I have (both with Floyds are the SSS format but with the Seymor Doncan single coil sized humbuckers. Tried lace sensor Golds but like the SD hot rails and the "everything Axe" set I have.

Definately try some other guitars and see what happens with the Mark V on the clean channel. Hopefully you can narrow down the issue to the actives, may just be a battery thing.

Problem solved! It turns out with both of my main playing guitars, the gain needs to be lower on channel one. It also turns both had weak batteries; even though it was not that long ago, I changed them - August, I think. Anyways, I was able to play at louder volume today and switch between both guitars, dial in different settings, etc. The clean channel rings as it should, with no distortion as the notes/chords decay. I'm finding a desire for more bottom end in the drive channels - crunch on two and Mark IIC+ on channel three. The problem is, if I bring in a bit more; the tone may not cut through with the band at a gig, so I guess I'll leave it for now.

Good to hear you have some resolve on your issue. Batteries I tend to forget about and 5 of mine have batteries for the active tone controls or piezo pup.

Yeah, me too! Thank you to you and the others that made suggestions. I am glad it is not the amp, I really like this amp.

For what it’s worth I run Lithium batteries in my guitars and they last forever as long you unplug them when not playing.

I will look into those, thanks for the tip.

barryswanson said:

I apologise if this has been asked before but would the AT7 mod work on a Dual Rectifier?

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I think you could substitute a 12AT7 in the Dual Rec, but it will effect both channels and all modes. Looking at the tube task chart on those amps, there are only two places you could try - and I am not sure I would. If I remember right from my owning a couple models - there are certain tube positions that use a cathode follower (or something like that) and tubes from certain manufacturers do not live long in those positions. There are people better educated on this, that could help more than my sometimes sporadic memory.

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For the DR, I cannot make any statements that would matter, A Roadster on the other hand, I did try a 12AT7 in V2. You will not get the same effect and the result is reduction on the clean channel as well as the higher gain channels. V2 has the cold cathode circuit which is the heart of the recto tone. For dual and triple rectos, the cathode follower positions are in V3 and V4. (road king 1 is the same) and road king II and Roadster that would be V3 and V5. You can use a JAN/GE 5751 in V1 or in V2 but the other tube should be a stock Mesa tube to keep some of the dark tone intact. That did remove some mud especially used in V2. CH4 on the Roadster adds more darkness to the modern voice than you would find in the other formats. I found the Tung sol in V1 seemed to do the job. I do have other tubes to try out now, so the Roadster is past due for a tune up. A drop in gain factor in the V2 position will result in dryer bottom end (tight?, maybe) a little less gain. 5751 did not seem to adversely affect the clean channel (Roadster has two) but the 12AT7 dramatically affected both. If I did through my tube rolling posts in the tube section or perhaps in the Recto section there may be something in there back in 2013. Been so long since I did it.

When I had my Roadster, I did the Tung-Sol in V1, but that was about it. Two things I could not get with that amp: I could never balance the clean channel (1) in clean mode with any of the others, regardless of the channel master settings; and I just couldn't get the lead sounds I wanted. At the time, it never dawned upon me to push with some sort of boost in the front end. I put it up for sale, and ended up trading for a Mark IV. I kept that until the deal for the Mark V I have presented itself. I miss the Roadster, but the Mark is more my taste, at least for now.
I have been experimenting with speakers and cabs. Considering what I have, I am getting a pretty good sound with the following: 1x12 oversized cab, closed back with a Vintage 30, and a matching cab, with the back removed and an Eminence Man O War. I am sure there are better combinations out there; but this is the best with what I currently have. Due to back issues, I no longer have the big 4x12's or even my Recto 212 (horizontal) - though that was a good cab.

Any body try the 12AT7 in other places? Wonder what CH2 would sound like with a change in gain character if I were to change V2 with 12AT7 or 5157. Will have to find out.

bump... did the thread fizzle out?

I'm still here mate. Had second band practice last night. After 2 weeks of finger training as I was on about in oldtelecasterman's thread and wow! Things just fell into place. Combination of slightly improved technique and the four of us falling back into the groove. Loved it. Running EL34's, V4 and V6 AT7's plus still got C39 clipped and its heavenly. Slight variation on Apeman's Mark iV mode settings, gain almost dimed, bass mids and treble all at 10 o'clock. Slight V but 750 slider no lower than middle line between flat and bottom if a little above and it sounded huge. No conflict with the bass guitar or drums, just massive. Drop to neck pickup and it's almost doom, enough for early Queens Of The Stone Age anyway. Back on the bridge pickup and back in metal heaven. Got edge mode rocking for classic rock like Free etc and kick in a clean boost and it's ZZ Top all the way. Hopefully get a phone recording of next week if i can. Looking forward to really getting my technique down, and actually learning my instrument rather than just playing songs. Back in love with the guitar again 8)

Wayno said:

Looking forward to really getting my technique down, and actually learning my instrument rather than just playing songs. Back in love with the guitar again 8)

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This is what I need to do! An suggestions on where to start?

I admit, I am a 52 year old novice who sort of played for the past 32 years and learned nothing. Now I am taking things a bit more differently as I am composing some music and that has helped me with playing other songs that are known. Not good advise but....

scales, scales, scales and more scales. I do not know my scales. Then there is the amp and guitar interface and how to make that work to your advantage. So much to learn so little time to do it. Just have fun and pick up on things while noodling around. You may discover something interesting if you can lean a few scales. And then work on the compliment to that scale to enhance your lead or stick to the script if you are doing cover songs. You have to own it if you want your performance stand out from the rest.

Expression, that is a trick that needs to be mastered if you want to sound good. This is where I spend my focus in how to express mood. I have depression almost nailed but need a lot of work to get the blues into the right perspective. I do not just play the notes as I like to explore how to express the mood of the song and interpret it in my own way, it sounds a bit more alive when you do that.

Understand the root of the song, what is the key of the apex and how should I be feeling during that moment, urgent, sad, excited, happy, sinister, or what ever the tone of the music is. Scales again.... my friend says the song is in the key of A minor, or B something or another.... If I am on the correct scale assuming I know what that is or a complement of that scale all sounds great, when I accidentally hit a sour note or contrary interpolation of what I should be playing it sounds like crap. I never learned any scales and what I did learn was long ago and forgotten.

One thing that helped me mechanically was something a guitar instructor told me to a couple years ago. He said, for one hour a day for a solid month just play a chromatic scale, up and down starting on the low string and going to the high string, then back down. Go slowly. The main thing is you are not allowed to continue to the next note until all four fingers are no further away from the strings than about 1/4”. So, as you are flexing a finger to play the note, all other fingers must remain 1/4” or closer to the strings. I think this is a classical training kind of thing but the instructor swore by it. Also focus on alternate picking while doing this, and picking consistly and perfectly times with the fingering hand.

I did what I could, usually 30-60 minutes per day (not all at once) and it made a huge difference in the mechanical fluidity of the finger motion. It also gave me a good bout of tendonitis/tennis elbow kind of thing as I was doing this mostly while sitting in a chair with arms while watching TV. So, make sure the guitar is positioned properly.

You want absolute efficiency of motion and the non playing fingers should be “at the ready” and as close as possible to the strings.

Not sure if this will help your “tone”, but it will certainly help fingering technique.

Wow - now that is a hijacked thread.

Thanks for the advice fellas. Scales it is. I know what I’m doing these seven days off.

I'm doing like Mace has said, with a slight embellishment;

I start at the 8th fret low E string and play chromatic up to the 11th. Keeping each note fretted as I play them until all 4 notes are played. The key is to keep all fingers close to the neck as you go. The point is your training your standby fingers to be close and ready, not curled up under the neck or pointing away. Try to keep your thumb central ish on the back of the neck. But most importantly go slow, very slow. Your training your fingers but your also exercising them and building strength. Slow is vital. Work your way up the strings, E then A then D etc and then all the way back again. The slower the better. Then after 1 cycle of this I do the same again but move the little finger up to the 12th fret so I play 8, 9, 10 and 12 on each string, slowly across all strings. Trying to keep all fingers close and ready. Remember to keep all notes fretted until you change up or down strings. You start to feel it by the time you get to the high e string. After one cycle of this i then play 7, 9, 10 and 12. Again across all strings and back again. Absolutely critical is you remember to go SLOW and keep all notes fretted as you go. Then move the whole thing down a fret and start again, if you can get this down towards the 3rd fret your really feeling it. Dont go any further than when it gets painful, you don't force it, after time your fingers will strengthen and stretches will become easier. It's a marathon not a sprint.

One other exercise I'm doing is this;

Again keeping thumb behind, all fingers close by strings and ready, 1st finger 1st fret hammer on 2nd finger 2nd fret from high E to low E and back again. Slowly. Then 1st finger 1st fret hammer on 3rd finger 3rd fret high E to low E and back. 1st finger 1st fret hammer on 4th finger 4th fret repeat cycle. Then start with the 2nd finger 2nd fret hammer on 3rd finger repeat cycle, then 2nd finger 2nd fret hammer on 4th finger 4th fret and repeat cycle. Finally 3rd finger 3rd fret hammer on 4th finger 4th fret and repeat cycle.

Then repeat with pulloffs.

The point is I'm exercising my fretting hand and training the muscle memory at the same time, after a week and a half I'm already seeing a marked improvement in both tone and stamina. It really does help your tone, I'm fretting notes much more cleanly which is in turn helping everything else.

Once I'd had this word with myself and deflated my ego, I realised I'm probably carrying so many bad habits after 20 years of just playing and not learning I really needed to get back to the start and unlearn those bad habits. Next up will be re-learning the scales and modes and actually learning to play lead, not just tabs from songs. But and it's the biggest but, I have to get the fundamentals right first. And those fundamentals are good proper acurate and consistant single note and chord fretting technique and accurate consistent picking technique. Its not gonna be easy and its not going to happen over night. It takes years to really become great at anything but it will be worth it.