Mesa MarkV / Saturation 'mod'

I don't believe that bandit, there's no such thing as one musician being better than another. If you enjoy it then your as good as anyone else. If ever there was a worthy fill for a void then playing instruments is one of them. Looks like you have a great collection of gear, keep having fun 8)

Perhaps I feel I lack in the skill department because I do not have a library of songs in my head that I can play...... And the one's I can play are only partial at best as I always gave up trying to figure out the lead....only to loose interest in the song all together. However I do like creating my own thing but having knowledge of other songs helps or at least the basics. It is what it is.

Well got home from work early (dang network crapped out and I need to complete my project before this weekend), Will have to try an alternate tube in V6 just to hear the difference. It does help to have a different tube into V1 as that influences the tone stack on each channel. What may sound great for CH3 may not always translate into ideal character for the other two.... Perhaps the 5751 in V1 and another 12AT7 into V6. The 5751 does a great job in V1 as tried that a few years back.....I do not need to dig it up but it is in the tube section.

Still methinks the holy grail tube for the Mark V is the JAN/Phillips 12AT7 in V4. What an improvement beyond words.

I think we need a new settings sticky thread for the V4 mode as it substantially changes the amps character.

Agreed. So many subtle and major differences with this mod (and v4 in particular) to such an already versatile amp! A new thread just on this topic wouldn't be a waste of space IMHO.

Btw, you can clearly see how helpful and hot this topic is considering how fast this thread has grown. 13 pages already...and such solid Intel. Hats off to the major contributors here.

I'm learning new things all the time with this thread and in particular because just how essential this mod is based on my playing style. It has redeemed my belief in this amp in no small way.

bandit2013 said:

Whoa there.... I would use the 12AT7 in V4 and the 5751 in V6. I have yet to use anything other than the stock 12AX7 in the V6 position. I will have to give that a try just for fun. I have plenty of preamp tubes in my arsenal, different flavors and not many in the NOS category (non in the 12AX7 as those are too expensive).

As for my electric guitar collection they are all Carvin guitars (10) and one branded with Kiesel which is still a Carvin.

The Carvin line up:
2 DC400 Claro Walnut with walnut/maple neck through TOM bridge
1 DC200 Koa with Maple neck thorugh, Kahler bridge
1 DC100 all maple, set neck with Kahler bridge
1 DC400 Alder body Maple cap maple neck though, TOM bridge
1 CT6 mahogany neck and body, set neck tom bridge (similar to PRS)
1 CS6 mahogany neck and body, set neck tom bridge (les paul)
1 Bolt C black limba body, maple neck bolt on, Floyd Rose trem (Super Strat) SD hot rails pups
1 Bolt C alder body, maple neck bolt on, Floyd Rose trem, (super strat) SD everything Axe pups
1 CT624C, mahogany neck and body, set neck, Floyd Rose
The Kiesel guitar (still a Carvin in my books)
1 DC600 mahogany body, maple neck, neck though, Graph tech ghost Floyd Rose

I guess I am a Carvin nut. I have tried many other brands but they just did not feel right for me.
Most of them are used instruments except for the CT624C, Bolt C (black limba) and one of the Claro Walnut DC400. My first one was the DC200 and after that guitar nothing else compared.... so now I have more Carvins. As for the Basses, two ibenez (6 and 4) and one LTD (5). Drums are Gretsch Catalina Maple with extra 13" tom, Paiste cymbals. Any new recordings will be with the acoustic drum set an no longer with the Rolland TD-15KV.

It does not matter how many guitars you have or how many amps you own. Many of you have surpassed my skills with far less. My problem is I am filling a void in my life so music seemed to do that and well GAS has also invaded my mindset.. Too bad I cannot play as well as the rest of you. At least I am having fun trying.

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You should try the 12AT7 in V6. It improves the IIC+ mode in the same way as in V4 along with some additional growl. All the modes in CH 3 improves with this mod in the same way that V4 does. There is a slight difference between v4 vs V6 when the 12AT7 is used in either position. After spending a couple of hours with each fix, for my taste, V6 sounds slightly better. Both flavours are great though and it is tough to decide on which one to go for.

And a big WOW at your collection. Carvin / Kiesel makes really nice guitars. I almost ordered one a few years back. Hey, music is all about filling up the voids in our soul. As long as it keeps you happy, there is nothing better in this world.

My vote goes to sticky this thread first but I am not sure if the moderators are going to do that. Just to keep everything related to a single thread, we could start posting our settings here. And I guess we are doing that already

APEMAN, Bandit, you've started a revolution!!!

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:roll: I tried the 12AT7 in V6.... again... :roll: for some reason it did not satisfy my tonal desires. Actually made the amp bright again. Wait a minute, I had a different tube in V1 so another tube roll and again.... something was missing. Could it be my guitar that I decided to use ? possibly. Then it dawned on me that all of my extension cabs were back in the studio. I was relying on the Mark V combo on itself. Though either of the 212 cabinets just the V4 mod was tops. I know I want my cake and eat it too as I also wanted the clean channel to sound great along with CH2. WTF? it sounded great just the other day.....

Hijack alert..... :x

Definitely a change in guitars was one of the key issues. I went from the DC600 that has the piezo bridge but also uses the preamp for the magnetics as well. That guitar in particular is like throwing a boost on the front end. My favorite CT624C (mostly mahogany) just sounded thin and bright with a change in V6. I did not have that issue before I got the DC600...... Oh yeah.... when I make the first change I swapped the MC90 out in favor of the EV tone. Then followed with the Redback, and then back to the MC90..... 8) Why not throw in the Crème 90W Alnico? (not sure if it is dead but it may be so give it a shot as it only takes 40 minutes to tear the amp down and swap speakers (requires a soldering iron). :shock: Now that sounds much better. Crème 90W has the V30 character blended with the boldness of the EV with a hint of vintage tone from the Cream back G12H75 (no flub or fizz).

I have to believe that my Mark V is a turd as it has been a struggle to get a great sound out of it. Now I am back on track with a Crème 90W Alnico speaker as a stand alone this one sounds the best thus far in a combo format. Still the Redback beats all that I have tried with the clean channel but lacks the authority with the high gain channels. I may give that a go in the 1x12 extension cab and see what happens when paired up with the Crème.

The final filter (subjective at best) aside, what makes me want to keep the Mark V would have to be the change in V4. What other tubes will help to complement the tonal alterations is the question... So far just the stock tubes seems to work the best and V1 alone can be used to tailor the overall tone since this drives the tone stack for CH1 and CH3. CH2 tone stack is driven by V2. Then there is V3 that follows the cascaded pair V4 and V5. Of course any change in V3 will affect the other two channels. I wonder what would work with that position? V6 is just a return amplifier or master volume for the CH3...
V3 is also the last tube before the EQ (with the exception of V6 for CH3).

I would agree a new set of amp settings thread would be in order... what can you dial in would be a good idea.

APEMAN said:

...the story ends where it began.

V6 mod was my inital thought with this threat. Most important is the EFX send level as it is not a 2nd Master on the preamp side, it is the input level control for the power amp and can define the character of the power amp (http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=72536#p491424). With the 12AT7 I think it has to be set quite high.

Still waiting for my ordered 5751 to arrive, could be the best of both worlds - maybe 5751 in V4 and 12AT7 in V6 as bandit recommended recently.

The 12AT7 in V4 sounds perfect, but again with loop in bypass, so no fx or solo function which is sad. If you activate the loop it looses a little bit of its quality. In V6 the loop is cured and activating it makes it sound even better not worse... I will tell more when the 5751 arrives.

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Huh. That's interesting. I think I was one of the biggest evangelists for disabling the fx loop prior to this mod coming to light. Now I think the fx loop sounds fine *to me* and I keep it on 100% of the time, with the send level straight up at twelve o'clock.

I may just have terrible taste, though.

Again, my AT7s are Tung Sol and JJs, in V4 and V6 (not sure which one is where but I *think* it's TS:V4 JJ:V6).

Bankim said:

My vote goes to sticky this thread first but I am not sure if the moderators are going to do that. Just to keep everything related to a single thread, we could start posting our settings here. And I guess we are doing that already

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Yeah, this should probably get stickied IMO. It's a big deal.

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V4 or V6 or both? Horses for courses i think. Loved V6. Loving V4 at the moment, added bonus, i'm saving my spare AT7 for the future. Will have to buy some more so i can experiment more with one in both. Tried it briefly and also loved it. Oh if only i had a magic money tree!

Definitely think this Mod is worthy of a sticky. Mind you, most people will have seen it as its been up the top of the page for some time now. Makes me happy how well its been received by all of you guys as it kind of validates my opinion too if you know what i mean. I'm forever greatfull to APEMAN and Bandit for their input and idea's at the start of this thread. Has transformed an already incredible amp into a fire breathing monster :twisted: I wonder if Mesa have seen this and had a play in secret? Could be in the works for the Mark VI?

Defo agree that a settings thread based on the mod is a good idea, especially as the different combinations of V4 and V6 can effect all channels or just Ch3. I officially second that motion!

Thanks guys,

Wayno.

APEMAN said:

... it depends on the situation I guess. I think the v4 mod is one of the most beautiful sounds I heared. In my band I play with a very hard hitting drumer (BIG bass drum!) and a very loud bass player - hard to compete with its 800W top downtuned to B. With the v4 mod I got lost (even on extreme mode). Somewhere in the manual you can find the bright switch, and they talk about that halo around the notes - this is managed with v4. With the v6 mod and v4 original the amp generates that halo, only the overall harshness disappears and I can hear that halo perfectly on the notes, even on the low chords. That halo can't be broken with bass and drums - the result is I'm loud and clear with the band even on low tuned riffs.
I think it really depends on your situation... but again, nice to have all those options

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Yea, I agree with you. The V4 vs V6 preference definitely depends on the intended usage. Like you, our band has a loud drummer along with a dijgeridoo player + bass. Talk about low end..lol... my sound is designed to cut through the mix on Cleans, Rhythms & leads and I am sure that my settings would sound harsh to some folks but I am aware of the frequencies that suit my needs. Jamming alone, I have a backing track running on most occasions unless I am learning something, so harshness has never been a problem. Even without the 12AT7 mod, I was happy with my sounds but the V4/V6 swap just takes the Mark V into a new level 8)

I played around with the FX levels (I had kept mine at 12 O' Clock) and more on the + side introduces unwanted hiss. Have set mine around 12:30 and dialed down the overall master by a hair. Tonal bliss !!

Why not make this thread a sticky?
What I would like to see is a comment from Mesa Boogie regarding the 12AT7 used in V4.

I had gone back to stock tubes just for kicks. I can still hear a similar tone if I listen hard enough. However the 12AT7 brings up the lower mids and balances out the tone for a more full sound vs all stock tubes that seems to emphasize on the upper frequencies. I am not sure what my favorite Voice on CH3 is at the moment as I am debating over Mark IV and Extreme. With all stock tubes it would have to be Extreme since the Mark IV gets muddy with a moderate gain setting. The grind is still there on a chord ring out but it sounds way better and less tin like with the 12AT7.

The final filter (speaker) really makes a huge difference. The Vert 212 cab is amazing as is the horizontal 212 with the Mark V and the saturation mod. When comparing the V to the JP using the same cabinet it is difficult to tell the difference (in other words I can set both amps to sound the same). There is a dramatic difference with stock tubes in the V. Actually I do not like the sound of the V30 when using Mark V with all Stock preamp tubes. I can tolerate the amp with an EV speaker and it sounds way better with the Crème Alnico 90W Celestion. With the saturation mod (V4 only) it does not make any difference what the speaker cab I am using as it just sounds too good to be true (after struggling with the amp for 5 years ).

I think it is time to roll in the 412 cabinets and have some fun.

Other than a change in V1, I believe V3 would be another tube to roll in that would tailor the tone a bit more than a change in V6. I need to find some tubes I like for the clean channel as well as the CH2 (crunch and mark 1) and see what the end result is with CH3.

Unfortunately, there is no preamp tube that will alter the send level as this is derived by a solid state circuit (transistors also used to drive the 5BEQ and it is sourced from the 24VDC supply). There is or are some products that will convert line to instrument level that uses a dual buffer to convert it back. (Ebtech LLS-2). With something like that you should be able to use all of your pedals in the loop. If you have Strymon and Boss (some will work with line level, Terra Echo TE-3 is one) you will not need the line level shifter. I do not need it now as I got rid of most of the instrument level effects I used to use with the Mark IV and or Mark III. Also do not need a line level shifter with my other amps. Just a point if you have rack units that are line level and want to use it with an amp with instrument level FX loop it should work. Even would be useful if your recording mixer or gear has an FX loop. I guess I digress onto something else. Now back to the topic.... no more thoughts left..... ideas used up.........skip....repeat.....skip.....repeat. Perhaps it is just a scratch on the surface or is it a deep cut into the tone farm. Nothing wrong with meat and potatoes if it is warm/hot and not frozen.

Been rolling again...

Got the following going on,

V1 - Tungsol
V2 - Mesa (JJ)
V3 - Sylvania
V4 - JAN/GE 12at7
V5 - Mesa (JJ)
V6 - JAN/GE 12at7
V7 - Sovtek LPS

Think I'm fully settled now. All channels seem to be sitting comfortably the tone is out if this world.

Now, some people had commented about loss of gain running at7's in both V4 and V6. I've not noticed this at all? Only the shift in mid frequency focus which gives the amp it's new balls. My Jan/GE 12at7's came with ratings of 90/92 and 100/95, I have no idea what tube tester was used or what scale this is in. I could have unusually strong tubes here with a gain factor up at 100 like an ax7 or this could mean 100% of the gain of an at7? I don't know.

Also, my serial number is 0008xx, therefore I could have the original pre 2010 tone stack which could be driving the later stages harder than the updated version? I believe as a fellow board member pointed out in that thread that the newer version also seems to drop the fixed value of volume 1 down from 7.5 to 7 as well as the high frequency roll off.

Here's the thread link about the versions.
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=73457

Either way, my amp absolutely smokes now and I'm gonna be stocking up on my blend of tubes for sure.

I bet that sounds monstrous.. I have never been a tube-roller but ****, after this V4/V6 swap, I am very much intrigued :twisted:

Wayno said:

Now, some people had commented about loss of gain running at7's in both V4 and V6. I've not noticed this at all? Only the shift in mid frequency focus which gives the amp it's new balls. My Jan/GE 12at7's came with ratings of 90/92 and 100/95, I have no idea what tube tester was used or what scale this is in. I could have unusually strong tubes here with a gain factor up at 100 like an ax7 or this could mean 100% of the gain of an at7? I don't know.

Also, my serial number is 0008xx, therefore I could have the original pre 2010 tone stack which could be driving the later stages harder than the updated version? I believe as a fellow board member pointed out in that thread that the newer version also seems to drop the fixed value of volume 1 down from 7.5 to 7 as well as the high frequency roll off.

Here's the thread link about the versions.
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=73457

Either way, my amp absolutely smokes now and I'm gonna be stocking up on my blend of tubes for sure.

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For what it's worth, my serial number is 0132xx and lower gain is absolutely not something I've noticed. I mean, it may be just due to how enormous the sound is now, but, uh, "dude, where'd my gain go?" has never crossed my mind even once.

I'm definitely interested in trying out your preamp tube recipe

I agree, no loss of gain on mine too but I am only swapping V4/V6, one at a time and all my tubes are stock Mesa. It just sounds so good 8)

I think I'm going to start referring to this as the Mark V/AT7, just to be clear and concise.

I've got a 60 watt IIC+ with a toggleable ++ mod coming back from Petaluma. Sounds like it will be home next week and I'm going to do some A/Bing once I get it.

dlpasco said:

I think I'm going to start referring to this as the Mark V/AT7, just to be clear and concise.

I've got a 60 watt IIC+ with a toggleable ++ mod coming back from Petaluma. Sounds like it will be home next week and I'm going to do some A/Bing once I get it.

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Eagerly awaiting some sound clips here. Hope to get a couple more up myself soon just to showcase the tube cocktail.