Express 5:25+ tone questions - looking for IIC+ sounds

Hi all,

To cut a long story short, Im basically after a nice IIC+ sort of sound, think dream theater's awake album. In my quest for this tone I finally bought a boogie last week (mini rec), I wasnt happy with the versitility with it so I swapped for a 5:25+ in 1 by 12 combo.

I love the versitility of this amp in comparison, the cleans are awesome and so are the crunch tones, but coming from my previous setup of running a vox tonlab into a fender hot rod deluxe I'm finding it a bit hard to replicate the sounds I had, especially at lower volumes, the tonelab for what it is, sounded great at home at practice volumes, but I have had thaat setup for a long time now and want a pure tube tone instead of a digital signal.

Now the burn channel does a close enough job but it can be a little harsh (not fuzzy but just a bit lifeless and over treble biased) sounding unless cranked, especially on the 5 watt mode, to get the fullest and warmest sound I'm having to use the 25 watt setting. I realise a tube amp has to be cranked a little but I would like to think I can achieve the tone I'm after at respectible noise levels.

I feel the burn channel has heaps of gain, atleast easily enough for a great rhythm tone, so I have been thinking of changing my v2 tube to a 5751 or 12ay7 to help smooth out the highs and ad some more warmth to the sound, if I need a bit more gain I dont mind using a od pedal for lead stuff.

I have been doing some reading on these forums the last few days a few guys have mentioned doing similar things but in different amps.

What do you guys think?

eightsixboy said:

Hi all,

To cut a long story short, Im basically after a nice IIC+ sort of sound, think dream theater's awake album. In my quest for this tone I finally bought a boogie last week (mini rec), I wasnt happy with the versitility with it so I swapped for a 5:25+ in 1 by 12 combo.

I love the versitility of this amp in comparison, the cleans are awesome and so are the crunch tones, but coming from my previous setup of running a vox tonlab into a fender hot rod deluxe I'm finding it a bit hard to replicate the sounds I had, especially at lower volumes, the tonelab for what it is, sounded great at home at practice volumes, but I have had thaat setup for a long time now and want a pure tube tone instead of a digital signal.

Now the burn channel does a close enough job but it can be a little harsh (not fuzzy but just a bit lifeless and over treble biased) sounding unless cranked, especially on the 5 watt mode, to get the fullest and warmest sound I'm having to use the 25 watt setting. I realise a tube amp has to be cranked a little but I would like to think I can achieve the tone I'm after at respectible noise levels.

I feel the burn channel has heaps of gain, atleast easily enough for a great rhythm tone, so I have been thinking of changing my v2 tube to a 5751 or 12ay7 to help smooth out the highs and ad some more warmth to the sound, if I need a bit more gain I dont mind using a od pedal for lead stuff.

I have been doing some reading on these forums the last few days a few guys have mentioned doing similar things but in different amps.

What do you guys think?

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Well, I've been doing that with my DC2 and it's helped tame the compressed lead channel and open the amp up some. Now, that said, I own an Express 5:25+ and our other guitarist has a MKIIC+, and we got together this weekend with both of them. The MKIIC+ is, without a doubt the best amp I have ever played through. EVER. The Express is a really good amp, but, not to pee in your cornflakes, but I don't think you will get a MKIIC+ sound out of an Express 5:25. Sorry....

Al

Thanks for the reply.

I spent a good 4-5 hrs yesterday with a 5751 in the v2 trying to get trid of the harshness, even with the last reble slider wound all the way off its still there, Im just hoping this isnt an inheriant thing with the express as at this stage Ill prob have to sell it and revert to my old set up

Have you tried a different speaker or speaker cabinet? I think the V30 speaker in mine has a lot of high end. If you are wanting to smooth out the tone, try a speaker. My old Black Shadow, now in a 1x12 homemade cab, is more mellow.

I just changed the v2 tube to a 12ay7 and it has made a huge difference, more then I thought it would. It has certainly mellowed out the top end a whole bunch and defined the bass a lot to, definitely a lot happier with it now, I'm surprised that even with this lower output preamp tube in the first gain stage theirs still gain to spare on the burn channel, at least for my needs, I can get a very chunky tight sound and also singing mid's for lead.

So anyone else looking to make there express a bit more rounded on the dirty channels I would change the v2 tube to a 12ay7, the 5751 didnt change it a whole lot in comparison to the 12ay7, but then again the 5751 only has slightly less gain.

Ill definitely keep in the mind the speaker change, I was thinking a Celestion gold but I actually like the v30's and have never had an issue with them before, my fender has one and never had an issue sound wise, the only exception to this is in a legacy cab when they sounded very very brittle, not sure why but I had also heard the same thing from others about those cabs.

eightsixboy said:

I just changed the v2 tube to a 12ay7 and it has made a huge difference, more then I thought it would. It has certainly mellowed out the top end a whole bunch and defined the bass a lot to, definitely a lot happier with it now, I'm surprised that even with this lower output preamp tube in the first gain stage theirs still gain to spare on the burn channel, at least for my needs, I can get a very chunky tight sound and also singing mid's for lead.

So anyone else looking to make there express a bit more rounded on the dirty channels I would change the v2 tube to a 12ay7, the 5751 didnt change it a whole lot in comparison to the 12ay7, but then again the 5751 only has slightly less gain.

Ill definitely keep in the mind the speaker change, I was thinking a Celestion gold but I actually like the v30's and have never had an issue with them before, my fender has one and never had an issue sound wise, the only exception to this is in a legacy cab when they sounded very very brittle, not sure why but I had also heard the same thing from others about those cabs.

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You might want to put a 5751 in V1 as well. That's the 3rd gain stage of channel 2, and that could knock it down even more.

I agree with a speaker change. I had a V30, but it was too harsh. Changed to an MC90 and it smoothed things out a bunch.

Al

I still might have to do that actually, after letting my ears rest for a few hours I did an a/b comparison between the boogie and my old setup and it still has a harshness to it, even though it is better its still there, I swapped the 5751 tube I had into v1 aswell but while it did reduce gain a little I didn't notice any tone differences.

I'm going to take the amp to a mates tomorrow where I can crank it for a bit, hopefully that might breeak the speaker in a litte, if thats the issue.

Its just weird how even when I do an a/b comparison, even when using my tonelab through my fender and the boogie, the boogie has an absolute crap ton more treble and ice pick type treble, even though both amps have the same v30 speaker. Obviously the fender is oldish now and well worn in and different circuitry, but you really notice a difference between the two, I have to get rid of alot of treble on the clean channel aswell if I use the tonelab through it, where as the fender is basically set flat.

I just wish I could get that smooth gain I can get with the fender and tonelab, the boogie in comparison almost sounds lifeless, it has ok sustain but the notes arn't very articulate, I had the very same issue with the mini rec before I swapped it over for the express, very tight sounding gain but very lifeless sounding, just wondering if these amps are biased to cold?

eightsixboy said:

I still might have to do that actually, after letting my ears rest for a few hours I did an a/b comparison between the boogie and my old setup and it still has a harshness to it, even though it is better its still there, I swapped the 5751 tube I had into v1 aswell but while it did reduce gain a little I didn't notice any tone differences.

I'm going to take the amp to a mates tomorrow where I can crank it for a bit, hopefully that might breeak the speaker in a litte, if thats the issue.

Its just weird how even when I do an a/b comparison, even when using my tonelab through my fender and the boogie, the boogie has an absolute crap ton more treble and ice pick type treble, even though both amps have the same v30 speaker. Obviously the fender is oldish now and well worn in and different circuitry, but you really notice a difference between the two, I have to get rid of alot of treble on the clean channel aswell if I use the tonelab through it, where as the fender is basically set flat.

I just wish I could get that smooth gain I can get with the fender and tonelab, the boogie in comparison almost sounds lifeless, it has ok sustain but the notes arn't very articulate, I had the very same issue with the mini rec before I swapped it over for the express, very tight sounding gain but very lifeless sounding, just wondering if these amps are biased to cold?

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Am curious - what setting is your treble pot? The treble is also a gain stage, and if you're over 5 (noon position on the Express) the treble is going to be screaming. Have you read the manual and tried some of the settings they list? You CAN NOT set the Boogie like your Fender and expect the same tones. That's where a lot of guys get into trouble and never bond with a Boogie, as they try to set them up the same way they do a Fender or Marshall, and it doesn't work. So read the manual from cover to cover first (seriously) if you haven't.

Also, the Express is never going to sound just like your Fender, it has it's own thing going. Mine is certainly not lifeless, and it's very articulate.

Al

There is a decent overdrive boost pedal called the Blue Note. It can help get you to a good bit of burn without grain.

I have a MKIIC with GEQ, reverb, simulclass. As others have mentioned, it is a pretty unique amp. I have been collecting NOS and regular used preamp tubes for years. They influence the tone quite a bit.

The Blue Note has plenty of vids out. I use the Blue Note to get a few other amps I have to sound somewhat like the edge of breakup. You may be hearing the clean channel cranked up on the gain.

The very cool guitar tone in the Robert Plant song, Big Log is a MKII. Pushing the clean channel a bit is one of those amazing guitar tones.

Good luck on your tone quest. It may only end when you get a MKIIC. As long as you pay a fair price they hold value quite well.

I have tried the treble pot on full, half way and also at around 8 o'clock on the dial, to me it almost sounds more grainy with less treble on the actually treble knob, it really seems to affect the openness of the amp, I found with the treble on half or over the amp seems to sound fuller, the mid and bass pots don't seem to affect the tone as much.

I had a decent jam at louder volumes today and even my mate who's a bass player said he could hear what I was talking about with the gain.

The amp sounded great on the clean and blues channels but the burn channel really seems to let it down, I don't know what it is but it just sounds grainy or I guess you could say 'not smooth'. You can eq it out to a certain extent but you then I just keep adding mids to try and compensate but you end up with a mushy sound that is to mid biased.

The blues channel is a lot smoother and generally sounds more dynamic and open, if only it had more gain, not sure if the circuitry is different between the blues and burn channel but its almost like the gain itself on the burn channel makes it overly compressed and a bit sterile, to me it sounds like a Boss DS-1 type of overly compressed distortion, great for tight Metallica type chunky rhythm but not much else, felt like I could do more lead work on the blues channel with less then half the gain that I have on the burn purely because its more open and responsive to input.

I was watching this the other day and if you skip to the 11:00 mark its pretty much the type of sound I'm going for, crunchy tight rhythm and a nice rounded lead tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8xAEgiW1TI


End of the day it could just be a Mesa thing, I had the same issue with the mini rec and all the demo's I've seen for the express have the same sound as mine to a certain extent.