NOS Tubes in Express 5:25+

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amrose57

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OK, have had my 5:25+ for about 6 months, and this past week I found an old RCA 12AX7A (dated 1968) I had forgot i had. I got it and a bunch of other NOS tubes back about 22 years ago, and used a few in my home Hi-Fi (Conrad Johnson) and sold the rest as I had no use for them. Kept the old one mentioned above. So I installed it in V2 (first gain tube for all 4 modes per MESA) and holy c**p, the amp's tone got bigger, fatter, and a bit more presence. It certainly took me by surprise! It just took a really, really good amp and made it great. So for the last 4 days I've been having fun with a new amp all over again!!

Now for the Question - since I'm new to the NOS Tube thing, I don't want to spend tons of money buying and rolling NOS 12AX7A's to see what sounds the best. So, does anyone use NOS tubes in their Express amps, and if so, what brands are you using in what position?

Thanks in advance!!

Al
 
I use NOS tubes in my Fender tweed Deluxe and Champ clones and like an RCA 7025 in the first preamp position of the vibrato channel on my Fender amps though I didn't notice a big enough difference with my Express 5:50 to warrant using NOS tubes. In fact, I kinda liked it better with modern tubes.
 
Don said:
I use NOS tubes in my Fender tweed Deluxe and Champ clones and like an RCA 7025 in the first preamp position of the vibrato channel on my Fender amps though I didn't notice a big enough difference with my Express 5:50 to warrant using NOS tubes. In fact, I kinda liked it better with modern tubes.
Click to expand...

I understand. For me, the difference is big enough to move forward. The MESA guys will tell you no tubes sound better then theirs. Well I beg to differ. When I got my 5:25+ I thought it was a bit hissy, as most EL84 amps tend to be. So I put in a Doug's Tube Set, and the hiss went down a bunch, and the amp sounded a bit fuller. A good $60 investment. 4 weeks later, the one Ruby failed during a gig, so the set came out and the MESA branded tubes went back in. So maybe their tubes are more reliable? With the RCA NOS, the difference was so pronounced I was pretty blown away. So over the next couple of months we'll see how my "tube tone quest" goes. I might find that the difference in changing out V1 and V3 is not near as big as V2. You never know....

Al
 
I tried NOS tubes in my 5:25 and didn't notice much difference at all compared to the Mesa stock tubes.
 
blackie59 said:
I tried NOS tubes in my 5:25 and didn't notice much difference at all compared to the Mesa stock tubes.
Click to expand...

So what did you notice, and what tubes did you try? I've been told the best NOS tubes for MESA's are the RCA's and GE's. Was told the Sylvania's are more mid-range pronounced, and the Tele's are a bit dark. I don't know if this is true, but the source is reputable. I'm just doing one at a time - RCA in V2, and play the amp for a while (rehearsals and gigs). I'll try another NOS in the V3 position in a few weeks after I've adjusted to the new tone from the first tube swap. I've found that doing wholesale changes in my home stereo (tube preamp) to see what different tubes sound like can get confusing, so that's why I just do one at a time now. YMMV as always....

Al
 
I got a bunch of NOS RCA's and tried them in different slots on the preamp and it really didn't make any noticeable change in the amp. I was surprised as everyone on the forums claims how much NOS tubes will do for tone. I think you'd be better off with swapping speakers myself.
 
I've always wondered how much difference NOS tubes would make in a modern circuit designed around new tubes versus an older circuit. Curious to see how this works out.
 
OK, I've got some more thoughts after playing around with this:

1. Noodling around here in the music room I can hear a significant difference in tone of the amp.
2. At rehearsal volume here in the music room I've had to turn down the lows and mids on both my tone and EQ to compensate.
3. At rehearsal with the rest of the band it's difficult to hear the difference, other than the tone control and EQ changes have been done. IOW, the additional sparkle and "bigness" gets lost.
4. At gig volume, the sound of the band, room, and so on masks the changes, again, tone and EQ changes are still in effect.

So, my initial conclusions (being an electrical engineer who works in the forensics/investigation world - I know...nerd, nerd, nerd) are NOS tubes CAN make a difference, but those differences can easily get masked depending on the volume/gain you use, and the ambient noise of the room. So then the real question is - is it worth the money? That then becomes a subjective answer based on your situation.

Now, it is interesting to think about how NOS tubes would sound with a "classic" design versus a modern one, and David asks. As I don't have an old Fender or Marshall I can't do a test. Anyone?

Al
 
amrose57 said:
OK, I've got some more thoughts after playing around with this:

1. Noodling around here in the music room I can hear a significant difference in tone of the amp.
2. At rehearsal volume here in the music room I've had to turn down the lows and mids on both my tone and EQ to compensate.
3. At rehearsal with the rest of the band it's difficult to hear the difference, other than the tone control and EQ changes have been done. IOW, the additional sparkle and "bigness" gets lost.
4. At gig volume, the sound of the band, room, and so on masks the changes, again, tone and EQ changes are still in effect.

So, my initial conclusions (being an electrical engineer who works in the forensics/investigation world - I know...nerd, nerd, nerd) are NOS tubes CAN make a difference, but those differences can easily get masked depending on the volume/gain you use, and the ambient noise of the room. So then the real question is - is it worth the money? That then becomes a subjective answer based on your situation.

Now, it is interesting to think about how NOS tubes would sound with a "classic" design versus a modern one, and David asks. As I don't have an old Fender or Marshall I can't do a test. Anyone?

Al
Click to expand...

Unless I'm interpreting your comments wrong, you're validating a gut feeling I've had for a long time.

For most gigging musicians, buying NOS tubes is almost a waste of money, because of exactly what you describe.

However, if you're recording, either at home with a DAW or in a big NY or LA studio, the recording will catch the tone! This MAY justify the expense.

Back in the 90's, I ran sound for a "semi-pro" rock band. One of the things I learned is that special sound from recording was pretty well lost when live. Sure, a Mesa sounds like a Mesa, a Marshall sounds like a Marshall and an Ampeg sounds like an Ampeg. But that special "sweetness" is mostly lost live. Even though, it was the same guitar and bass guitar, playing through the same amps by the same musicians. Either way, the songs sounded great! (And it wasn't the PA. We were using a Yamaha Pro Mix I [Ozzy was using 8 of them on tour] with a pair of yamaha 3000 watt amps for mains that powered multiple JBL speakers.)

Whatcha think???
 
DannyB_KY said:
amrose57 said:
OK, I've got some more thoughts after playing around with this:

1. Noodling around here in the music room I can hear a significant difference in tone of the amp.
2. At rehearsal volume here in the music room I've had to turn down the lows and mids on both my tone and EQ to compensate.
3. At rehearsal with the rest of the band it's difficult to hear the difference, other than the tone control and EQ changes have been done. IOW, the additional sparkle and "bigness" gets lost.
4. At gig volume, the sound of the band, room, and so on masks the changes, again, tone and EQ changes are still in effect.

So, my initial conclusions (being an electrical engineer who works in the forensics/investigation world - I know...nerd, nerd, nerd) are NOS tubes CAN make a difference, but those differences can easily get masked depending on the volume/gain you use, and the ambient noise of the room. So then the real question is - is it worth the money? That then becomes a subjective answer based on your situation.

Now, it is interesting to think about how NOS tubes would sound with a "classic" design versus a modern one, and David asks. As I don't have an old Fender or Marshall I can't do a test. Anyone?

Al
Click to expand...

Unless I'm interpreting your comments wrong, you're validating a gut feeling I've had for a long time.

For most gigging musicians, buying NOS tubes is almost a waste of money, because of exactly what you describe.

However, if you're recording, either at home with a DAW or in a big NY or LA studio, the recording will catch the tone! This MAY justify the expense.

Back in the 90's, I ran sound for a "semi-pro" rock band. One of the things I learned is that special sound from recording was pretty well lost when live. Sure, a Mesa sounds like a Mesa, a Marshall sounds like a Marshall and an Ampeg sounds like an Ampeg. But that special "sweetness" is mostly lost live. Even though, it was the same guitar and bass guitar, playing through the same amps by the same musicians. Either way, the songs sounded great! (And it wasn't the PA. We were using a Yamaha Pro Mix I [Ozzy was using 8 of them on tour] with a pair of yamaha 3000 watt amps for mains that powered multiple JBL speakers.)

Whatcha think???
Click to expand...

I think that's a good summary. For me, quite a few of our gigs find me with my master at 9 o'clock, and my gains under 11 o'clock. I can still hear a small difference when I'm in front of my amp, but I'm certain no one else can. Keep in mind two other factors:

1. NOS tubes are said to last much longer. While I don't know that for sure, quite a few people have told me they've had NOS tubes for 10 or more years that still sound good (preamp tubes, not power tubes). As I've already gone through a couple of current 12AX7A tubes in the last 2 years, if an NOS tube lasts 10 or more years it suddenly becomes a good value.

2. I still don't know about "vintage" amps. I believe a Fender has two preamp gain stages, while our Boogies have 3 or 4. Also, Fender amps have their preamp tubes biased lower, or cooler than our Boogies, so based on that I would expect more of a pronounced difference with NOS tubes on a vintage design. But again, since I do not have one to test I'm not sure. I do, however, have an Egnater Tweaker 15 head, so I might go ahead and try an RCA in V1 position to see what the difference is.

And the journey continues.....

Al
 
I had a Tweaker 15 head and that's when I first experimented in NOS tubes and it made a slight improvement in the sound but the Tweaker cab had a kind of flabby speaker so the NOS tubes didn't really change that much at all.
 
blackie59 said:
I had a Tweaker 15 head and that's when I first experimented in NOS tubes and it made a slight improvement in the sound but the Tweaker cab had a kind of flabby speaker so the NOS tubes didn't really change that much at all.
Click to expand...

Interesting. When I changed out the stock Ruby's in the Tweaker with Mullard's in the preamp and JJ's in the power section (Still 6V6's) the tone improved quite significantly. Unfortunately I'm not going to have the time over the next 3 weeks or so to do a bunch of tube rolling (work schedule, you know) but I should have some time in November. My "priority" with the NOS tubes is my MESA, since it's my main gigging amp (and the best sounding one as well!!), so I'll keep focusing on that with the time between now and November 1 that I have. I've got 2 more RCA 12AX7A's and 2 GE 12AX7's coming later this week.....so much to do, so little time......

Al
 
I picked up a used Marshall combo as a spare amp and it was very fizzy until I put the NOS tubes I had leftover from the Tweaker and they really took the fizz out of the amp and warmed it up a lot. Why they didn't have a dramatic change in my Mesa is a mystery to me. The Marshall sure likes them.
 
NOS - Update

I have the following NOS tubes I've been playing with; RCA's, GE's, a Mullard, and a Tung-Sol. After much rolling and listening, here's where we stand:

For my Mesa 5:25+ - RCA in V2 (first gain stage), GE in V1, and, surprisingly enough, the stock Mesa branded 12AX7a in V3. This combination yielded the best tone to my ears. I was very surprised with the stock tube in V3, but as the V3 tube is mostly the last of the gain stages it stands to reason this tube would make the least difference.

Still have to try Raytheon and Sylvania tubes, so will be looking to buy a couple in the future. Right now, though, I'm very pleased with where I'm at, and have a couple of spare RCA and GE NOS tubes for the future. Also, this combo of preamp tubes reduced my hiss to a point that I no longer notice it....also a good thing.

Al
 
Would you mind telling us about the RCA and GE tubes? Long plate or short plate? Gray or black plates? Smooth or ribbed plates? Was the RCA in a black and red box or a red and white box? (Hopefully the box wasn't switched :oops: )
 
DannyB_KY said:
Would you mind telling us about the RCA and GE tubes? Long plate or short plate? Gray or black plates? Smooth or ribbed plates? Was the RCA in a black and red box or a red and white box? (Hopefully the box wasn't switched :oops: )
Click to expand...

Well, since I'm a Newbe at NOS tubes, a picture might work better:



Al
 

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