The Boogie Board

Discussion Forum for Mesa Boogie Products
It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:24 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:46 pm 
Offline
Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:07 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Oakland, CA
I've owned a few used Marks now... a Mark I, IIb, IIc+, and III.

All of them sound best when the bass EQ knob is set very low.

Does anyone use these amps with the bass set high? And how do you have the rest of the amp set? What kind of music/environment/application benefits from this?

Just wondering what led the decision to voice these amps in such a way that the bass response is so overwhelming that the stock recommendation is to set the bass knob very low.

Thanks, merely curious, if anyone has an idea.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:06 pm 
Offline
Donating Member

Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:57 pm
Posts: 294
The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps, and the eq knobs come before most of the gain. The higher you run the gain, the lower the bass should be because high gain on bass heavy tones leads to the fartiness.

I have not owned any of the Marks you mentioned, but my previous Quad Preamp sounded great with the bass up and the deep switch when I set rhythm 1 (the IIC+ channel) to a clean sound. Other settings were moderate mids and treble (not too high or the clean wasn't clean). The same settings in lead 1 sounded bad.

_________________
Roadster, Mark IV, Traditional/ Stiletto 412
Gone: Quad MIDI Pre, TriAxis V1 & V2, Formula Pre, 2:90, 20/20
Great deals with: Prestige20, DMTransmutation, PaxMan, Forty6and2, jdurso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:47 am 
Offline
Donating Member

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:56 pm
Posts: 1079
Location: Norfolk, CT
These amps have all that bass for single coil guitars playing clean jazz type music in a loud setting where high headroom is desired. These amps are all-inclusive and nondiscriminatory in there behavior and can do metal and country equally well. 8)

_________________
Hendrix/Dimebag influenced, JP2C, Mark llC++, Steinberger GR4's


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:06 am 
Offline
Bottle Rocket

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:07 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Oakland, CA
Markedman wrote:
These amps are all-inclusive and nondiscriminatory in there behavior and can do metal and country equally well. 8)


Truer words, etc. Confirmed for me every day I play.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:20 pm 
Offline
Donating Member

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:49 pm
Posts: 327
Location: Vermont, USA
JMMP wrote:
The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps


This is the answer. The tone knobs (with treble pushed in, bass pulled out) are exactly the same as on a classic blackface/silverface Fender. Randall Smith (founder of Mesa Boogie) started out by modifying Fender amps. Then, when he made the the Mark I (simply known as the Boogie from Mesa), it was a souped-up Fender. The design of the tone knob circuitry followed Fender's design. Hence, the template for the whole rest of the Mark series was set.

Once Mesa started to increase the gain on the amps, they added the push and pull pots to modify the knob's EQ frequencies to make it friendlier for higher and higher gain, but the basic behavior was set from its Fender roots.

In British style amps (Marshall and derived amps such as Soldano and Mesa Rectifier), the early parts of the circuit (where the Mark series has its EQ knobs) are hard-wired to cut most of the bass and low-mids. Since pre-gain bass is bad, the relative lack of bass in Marshall-style amps made them sound too thin at low volumes, but made them sound awesome when turned up to the point of distortion. Hard rock!

By contrast, have you ever turned up the volume on a classic Fender amp (or reissue of a classic)? Have you ever turned it up to the point of getting a really distorted sound? On those classic-style amps, I think that it getting it to the point of heavy distortion makes it sounds really mushy and kinda bad. The primary cause for the mush and flab is that the guitar signal has too much bass, which makes the distortion get flatulent. It's the same kind of effect that you get with the lead channel on a Boogie if the bass knob is incorrectly turned up.

Guitars and guitar amps are full of historical "features" such as this. They're full of vestigial tailbones and appendices waiting to burst. If you're into circuits, they're fun to learn about.

Chip


Last edited by chipaudette on Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:24 pm 
Offline
Mark IV

Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:09 pm
Posts: 814
Location: Looking over the shoulder of the guy who lost his apples - not that he really ever had any to lose.
Always well informed interesting posts Chip!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:51 am 
Offline
Mark I

Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:35 am
Posts: 42
chipaudette wrote:
JMMP wrote:
The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps


This is the answer. The tone knobs (with treble pushed in, bass pulled out) are exactly the same as on a classic blackface/silverface Fender. Randall Smith (founder of Mesa Boogie) started out by modifying Fender amps. Then, when he made the the Mark I (simply known as the Boogie from Mesa), it was a souped-up Fender. The design of the tone knob circuitry followed Fender's design. Hence, the template for the whole rest of the Mark series was set.

Once Mesa started to increase the gain on the amps, they added the push and pull pots to modify the knob's EQ frequencies to make it friendlier for higher and higher gain, but the basic behavior was set from its Fender roots.

In British style amps (Marshall and derived amps such as Soldano and Mesa Rectifier), the early parts of the circuit (where the Mark series has its EQ knobs) are hard-wired to cut most of the bass and low-mids. Since pre-gain bass is bad, the relative lack of bass in Marshall-style amps made them sound too thin at low volumes, but made them sound awesome when turned up to the point of distortion. Hard rock!

By contrast, have you ever turned up the volume on a classic Fender amp (or reissue of a classic)? Have you ever turned it up to the point of getting a really distorted sound? On those classic-style amps, I think that it getting it to the point of heavy distortion makes it sounds really mushy and kinda bad. The primary cause for the mush and flab is that the guitar signal has too much bass, which makes the distortion get flatulent. It's the same kind of effect that you get with the lead channel on a Boogie if the bass knob is incorrectly turned up.

Guitars and guitar amps are full of historical "features" such as this. They're full of vestigial tailbones and appendices waiting to burst. If you're into circuits, they're fun to learn about.

Chip


That makes so much sense... why haven't I seen that before.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 4:56 pm 
Offline
Donating Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:57 pm
Posts: 4448
Location: South of Heaven
thunderkyss wrote:
That makes so much sense... why haven't I seen that before.


Image

_________________
Ignore the hype and trust your ears. Play more, buy less = better tone.

| Les Paul | McCarty | Custom 24 | CE 22 |
| D800 | Dual Rectifier | Electra Dyne | Rectoverb:25 | Strategy 8:88 |
| Powerhouse 410 | Recto 1x12, 2x12, 4x12 | Subway 112, 115 |


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:32 am 
Offline
Donating Member

Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:56 pm
Posts: 1079
Location: Norfolk, CT
My C++ is voiced differently enough that I can keep the rotary bass knob at 3-4 and the 80 hz fader up above the mid way point even when playing at a high volume with high gain and I do not get a flubby tone. I'm using a guitar that is very non resonant, Steinberger with a maple body and graphite neck, that has a strong pick up, Tom Anderson H3+, which makes for a tight tone. I have a minimal amount of pedals to suck tone out of my signal, something completely overlooked by some players when evaluating why they can't dial in a tight low end.

_________________
Hendrix/Dimebag influenced, JP2C, Mark llC++, Steinberger GR4's


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline
Donating Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:12 pm
Posts: 635
Location: Seattle
chipaudette wrote:
JMMP wrote:
The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps


This is the answer. The tone knobs (with treble pushed in, bass pulled out) are exactly the same as on a classic blackface/silverface Fender. Randall Smith (founder of Mesa Boogie) started out by modifying Fender amps. Then, when he made the the Mark I (simply known as the Boogie from Mesa), it was a souped-up Fender. The design of the tone knob circuitry followed Fender's design. Hence, the template for the whole rest of the Mark series was set.

Once Mesa started to increase the gain on the amps, they added the push and pull pots to modify the knob's EQ frequencies to make it friendlier for higher and higher gain, but the basic behavior was set from its Fender roots.

In British style amps (Marshall and derived amps such as Soldano and Mesa Rectifier), the early parts of the circuit (where the Mark series has its EQ knobs) are hard-wired to cut most of the bass and low-mids. Since pre-gain bass is bad, the relative lack of bass in Marshall-style amps made them sound too thin at low volumes, but made them sound awesome when turned up to the point of distortion. Hard rock!

By contrast, have you ever turned up the volume on a classic Fender amp (or reissue of a classic)? Have you ever turned it up to the point of getting a really distorted sound? On those classic-style amps, I think that it getting it to the point of heavy distortion makes it sounds really mushy and kinda bad. The primary cause for the mush and flab is that the guitar signal has too much bass, which makes the distortion get flatulent. It's the same kind of effect that you get with the lead channel on a Boogie if the bass knob is incorrectly turned up.

Guitars and guitar amps are full of historical "features" such as this. They're full of vestigial tailbones and appendices waiting to burst. If you're into circuits, they're fun to learn about.

Chip


I decided to give this setup a shot. Mind blown. This sounds amazing.

I put together a short video about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8cEYk8ek

_________________
Mark IIC+, III, V, Recto Reborn, TC-50
Sold: JP-2C, V25, Road King II, Tremoverb, Electra Dyne, ROV25
Twitter:mammothguitar


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:38 pm 
Offline
Donating Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:12 pm
Posts: 635
Location: Seattle
Neat. On a hunch, I dug through the Mark V manual and found some updated docs about Fat mode. I swear this wasn't in here before:

Quote:
FAT comes from the MARK I Input 2 (which is where our popular MARK V got it’s CLEAN voice as well) and is in every way opposite to the tight, bright voice of CLEAN.

This circuit pays homage to the early Black Face era circuits pioneered by Leo Fender and has become tightly interwoven into the fabric of classic Rock and Blues sounds.

Sweet shimmering highs that soar high enough for angels to hear, yet ring with bell-like authority for the rest of the band. Proud mids that are punchy and tight, yet are low enough to carry weight and add girth. Big, airy lows that start at the center of the earth and bring the big fundamental to get the party started in a hurry. These qualities produce an easy to play feel on the strings that invite you in...coaxing you to play your best and of course always...with soul.

FAT works great for chording and rhythmic work, but in contrast to the CLEAN mode, FAT sings with a huge, lush voice that lls-in a mix and casts a halo of harmonic richness around the entire instrument.

The sonic footprint is much wider and can carry a part such that it becomes the backbone of a song without any processing.

FAT is really useful in the studio for both clean and slightly driven parts, where you want to have a big sound and retain all your dynamic nuances. This is especially true in the 45 and 90 watt settings of the Power Select switch, where the power section can deliver dynamic differences effortlessly.

One important thing to keep in mind is that the lower centering of bass frequencies makes it possible to overload both the preamp and speakers quite easily by setting the BASS and MID Controls in their higher regions (above 11:30).


So the all-knobs-push-in-except-bass-shift, presence at zero mode on the old Marks corresponds to Fat Mode on the Mark V family?

Honestly, I'd believe it. The sound on my Mark III was yuuuuge.

_________________
Mark IIC+, III, V, Recto Reborn, TC-50
Sold: JP-2C, V25, Road King II, Tremoverb, Electra Dyne, ROV25
Twitter:mammothguitar


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group