DC-5b Combo - ReTube Time!!

A very good friend of mine helped me choose the DC-5 among a bunch of contenders that were currently on Craigslist. Then, he suggested a tube cocktail that would work best for what I was describing to him (cleanest possible cleans - Fender like, without the high end bite...smoother. Then, I need a Metal tone that can be used as a Classic Rock tone by simply switching off the EQ) I thought this mix might help somebody else who likes to experiment with bottles

So, here's the cocktail:
V1: JAN GE 5751 (V1 for Rhythm and for Lead)
V2: Mullard Reissue 12AX7 Hi-Gain (Lead Gain)
V3: Mullard Reissue 12AX7 (Lead Gain, Loop Return)
V4: Mullard Reissue 12AX7 (Rhythm Gain)
V5: JAN 12AT7WTC balanced Black (Reverb Driver)
V6: JJ ECC803S Balanced (Phase Inverter)

Well, a good friend he is because the cleans are OUTSTANDING. He attributes that to the 5751 in v1 and the JJ in the v6 (PI). I don't care, it sounds great to me, and that's coming from a guy that's been using a Music Man combo for the last 3 years - with ultra clean tones. Cleanest sounding amp I've ever heard - but I digress - the Boogie has all the chime, without that spike of high freqs, and a big warm bottom end. LOVE IT.

My gain settings are great too, but I honestly haven't gotten them up to 'gig' level yet. Rehearsal is tonight, so I will undoubtedly have an update after that. I really only use the gain channel for the 'Metal' tone on a few songs. When I have the added functionality of toggling the EQ on/off, I will be using the gain channel more.

UPDATE: I've been using these tubes for a couple months now and they've had a chance to really 'burn in'

My gain channel is to die for. Truly an amazing wide creamy overdrive - no wooly overtones, no piercing ice pick highs, no fizzy edges - round, warm gain tones and chimey cleans that cut through a mix rather than punching a hole in it.

I highly recommend the tube cocktail specified above

I've done a whole lotta experimentation, myself. And while tone truly is in the ear of the beholder, I have yet to play a Boogie that has not had more OD than I can ever use (I play classic rock, contemp rock, pop, and lots of P&W). If you don't "need" all the uber-saturated OD the Lead channel can deliver, I've found a far smoother, liquidy lead-channel tone, which also makes the gain knob more "usable" in that I can use more of its sweep. And FWIW, I've played with this tube cocktail now for yeeeaars, despite having tried other amps, and continue to love it both for the superb tone, but also for its wide versatility. For your consideration:

V1: NOS Mullard 12ax7 (first gain stage for both channels)
V2: NOS Mullard 12at7 (this is the 1st and 2nd gain stage for the Lead channel after V1)
V3: TungSol RI 12at7 (final gain stage for both channels ...and fx rtrn)
V4: NOS RCA 5751 (this is the 1st and 2nd gain stage for the Rhythm channel after V1)
V5: reverb
V6: PI: NOS Mullard 12at7
Power Tubes: Svet Winged-C (the real ones, not RIs)

- First off, please keep in mind these are personal choices based on my desire to smooth out the tone: round lows that are tight and crisp highs that are smooth and glassy. Yes, the "fender twin" description comes up in my head
- Second, I wanted to cut the grainy quality of the OD. Yeah, liquidy "Carlos-style" leads were a must have. And I don't use OD pedals so it's gotta come from the channel or the amp is a goner (went through this with many an amp as that's my litmus test).
- Third, I experimented over many days (I think around a week, IIRC), giving my ears lots of breaks, and staying objective, trying to avoid the "Hawthorne effect" where any change "sounds" like a good change. I also had zero bias (no pun intended) for the NOS or whatevers ...if it didn't sound the way I wanted, I swapped it, regarless of make or cost.
- And overall, I play rock so need good OD, from EVH to ACDC to milder GooGooDolls or Matchbox; and want cleans that are one edge-of-breakup where guit vol knob and pick attack can get mr from crunch to clean. The amp must be versatile over different genres or it's a no-go for me.

So there I am, arriving at my final recipe! BIG clear rhythm channel tone, solid bottom and crisp glassy highs that are smoooooooth! Yes, Fendery, but with a hint of extra mid-chime that is vox-ish (which I like). And the Lead channel is where I am most pleased with ...and my primary concern, really, as the R channel was pretty dang great as it was stock. One very important note, however, is that I found (with loads of tubes in my hands, again over many days) that the type of tube has far more bearing on tone as opposed to whether it was NOS or current production. For example, I found little difference in V2 between a NOS Mullard and a regular TungSol at7 ...so long as it was a 12at7, I preferred it. But since I had the Mullard, that's what ended up in it, make sense?
Jsut some food for thought. Happy experimentation, all. Remember, be objective and be honest with yourself. And try things over time ...it makes a world of difference. IMHO.

Edward

Edward - Thank You

That is a very nice 'review' of your cocktail, and of the results you achieve - well done. Thank you for pointing out that tone is completely subjective too, one man's garbage is another man's treasure.

I am very intrigued by all those 12AT7s in your mix, I must admit. I run a 12AT7 in the preamp of my Music Man combo & it just gives me a smooth overdrive, not quite enough gain for my needs, but totally useable for a Blues or Jazz player. Stacking multiple 12T7s would probably just be a smoother, more saturated version of that - which would probably sound **** nice. I'm willing to bet your clean tones are phenomenal.

I discovered the beauty of the lower gain preamp tubes when I ran a 12AT7 with a 12AX7 in my last ADA MP-1 (tube preamp) for a very nice combination of sounds. I believe I had a TungSol 12AT7 and a JJ or possibly a Mullard RI 12AX7 - I'll have to check my notes. It gave me the grind and crunch of a Boogie, but the 12AT7 allowed me to get a more Marshally tone when the overdrives were adjusted properly - a very nice combination indeed. The cleans were stellar too. I just prefer not to carry the rack gear around anymore (although I still have two working racks of gear at the rehearsal space

Hey Dante,

Yeah, the 12at7 (and for matter, the 5751 is a smaller-increment in decreased gain from the ax7) is a great way to shape, or kill, the tone in any amp, or even a given amp tube's position. For example, when I tried a 5751 or AT7 in the V1 position, it sounded weak, and the OD lacked guts/girth. But with the AT7 in PI spot, I got great results. It all depends on the amp in question, the tube position, and what the user wants to achieve.

FWIW, in my DC5 and Express 525, the at7 works in some places (as noted) and doesn't in other positions; and in other amps (various SF Fenders I've had in the past, for example, it sucked the tone! I think with Boogies it works in the high-gain areas since Mesa "cascades" their gain stages, whereas on Fenders, you get the one gain stage and you need the "heat" otherwise you get anemic results.

One very positive feature worth noting on the DCs, and with my MkIII and likely other Marks, is that the two channels are more "discrete" in their tube circuits, thereby allowing you more tailoring of one channel independent of the other. By comparison, my 525 (and some other Mesas newer than the DCs, I've found) share their tube usage (a/b sides) more, which means altering a tube for say the OD channel will affect the other channel's voicing, or vice vesa. I don't know if that's a cost-cutting measure for the newer Mesas to have more "shared circuitry," but man am I glad that I held on to this DC and experimented. Anyone owning a DC/Mark owes it to themselves to try different tubes to explore different voices, IMHO. There is some serious flexibility that is inherent to the design; with the new Boogs, it is more "what you have is what you get."

Edward

Good advice Edward - Thanks again for the post, I'll be experimenting with my cache of tubes I have piled up at home

Love the DC series amps...I made a Cartel logo for myself, I'm sure the number is too high

The old At7 NOS mullard mil spec for reverb , but wouldn't plug an at7 into first stage of any amp, too dull, tried 12at7 at PI, pants, it kill all gain transfert to power tubes, and its best when power tubes breaks

my v settings:

Clean (no overdrive) V1: NOS Sylvania black long plate (first stage for both channels)
Lead (overdrive) V2: NOS GE black long plate "raytheon" 12ax7 (2nd and 3rd overdrive gain stage after V1)
Lead (no overdrive)V3: NOS Tung Sol 12ax7 (follower 4th lead channel stage ...and fx rtrn)
Clean (light overdrive)V4: NOS Jan GE AT7 (this is the 2nd 3rd gain stage for the Rhythm channel after V1, it cleans up nicely V1)
V5: NOS Mullard 12at7 mil spec (reverb send return)
V6: PI: NOS GE 12ax7 LP black mil spec
Power Tubes: Winged C 6l6gc