STR-416 Disappointment

I recently purchased what was touted to be a matched pair of Mesa Str-416 6CA7s with plenty of life left on them. But considering the money I paid, I'm a bit let down. They were supposed to replace the Str-447 EL34s in my C+, but I think I prefer the 447s, which are tighter, punchier, and more articulate. In comparison, the 416s are loose, overly gainy/warm, somewhat noisy and sort of messy sounding. Feedback is a problem at higher volumes...more so than other tubes. I expected more headroom, more growl, more awesomeness, but it's not quite there.

They aren't all bad, though. The 416s do have richer overtones and yield extra-crunchy palm muting that is pleasant to the ear. I just have a hard time believing that Mesa-rebranded Sovteks could give this legendary tube a run for its money unless something was amiss.

So, does this describe the Str-416s in your C+? Did my seller lie about these tubes being matched, fresh, or in excellent condition? Or did I just buy into the hype?

Yeah, those tubes suck wind. Sell them to me cheap. :wink:

Joey is crazy....btw, I will give you 1 $ more for them...they do suck ***

What is the bias ? Sounds like they are so cold you are in crossover distortion.

Send them my way and I will fix them for you.....

Boogiebabies said:

What is the bias ? Sounds like they are so cold you are in crossover distortion.

Send them my way and I will fix them for you.....

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for all of the help, humor, and all around bad-***-i-ness BB has brought to this forum, I think we all should send him a pair of 416's 8)

lesterpaul said:

Boogiebabies said:

What is the bias ? Sounds like they are so cold you are in crossover distortion.

Send them my way and I will fix them for you.....

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for all of the help, humor, and all around bad-***-i-ness BB has brought to this forum, I think we all should send him a pair of 416's 8)

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Send to:

Guapo Diablo
999 Gates Of Hell Circle
NY, NY 10666

But truthfully, my standard set of bench testing tubes are Sovtek 5881's. I use them in case something goes amiss with new filter caps. In the 8 IIC's I have worked on or re-capped even those $ 8.00 tubes sound pretty **** good in a 60, 100 and simul class.

Boogiebabies said:

Send to:

Guapo Diablo
999 Gates Of Hell Circle
NY, NY 10666

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Now that's funny. :lol: My mexican neghbors on the street call me "El Diablo" as they make a crucifix symbol with their fingers. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thank you all for replying.

It looks like y'all really like y'all some 416s...and apparently none of you would mind acquiring an extra pair :roll:. And that's great n everything, but keep in mind that my goal is to determine the reasons why I seem to be having a different experience from everyone else, not necessarily to sh!t all over 416s. Could very well be a simple case of differentstrokesfordifferentfolks. I haven't quite given up on them yet though, and I seek further information for analysis. So in all seriousness, I'd still like to hear your own specific observations of your 416s, such as...

- Do you find that 416s are tight and articulate? Or dark and on the looser side?
- Are your Master 1 and Lead Master knobs pushed in or pulled out on your 416-equipped C+?
- Are there any situations where you feel the 416 is not particularly at its best? And in what situations do you think it shines? (live band mix, bedroom levels, studio recording, leads, rhythm, etc.)
- Do you feel there are any styles of music or specific tones in which these tubes excel or fall short? (rockn'roll, thrash, blues, shredding, Metallica, Petrucci, Santana, etc. ...What do you play?)
- Besides the Str-415, is there any other power tube you've tried in a simul C+ that you like as much as the 416?

Boogiebabies said:

What is the bias ? Sounds like they are so cold you are in crossover distortion.

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No idea. They're Mesa branded, but perhaps the bias rating shifted over time. I got a friend coming over tonight who's bringing something to determine the bias - I'll post those findings here.

I like mine (Class-A mode) with the Master 1 cranked to at least 3-5 and a low lead drive setting (around 3-4). Lead or rhythm channel, it does not matter.

based on your initial description, mine sound the opposite

I prefer the 447s, which are tighter, punchier, and more articulate. In comparison, the 416s are loose, overly gainy/warm, somewhat noisy and sort of messy sounding-doesn't matter what is pushed ,pulled,etc...tight, articulate,warm...love the clean to low break-up tones
-if mine sounded like your pair, I would be disappointed,too..these puppies aren't cheap...I tried to talk Boogie out of some 415's ,asked me how that went...!

lesterpaul said:

based on your initial description, mine sound the opposite...
...-if mine sounded like your pair, I would be disappointed,too..these puppies aren't cheap...

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Didn't get around to determining the bias of the 416s last night, but I did have a full band practice for the first time since receiving them in the mail. Started out with 416s in my C+, and it was just a dark, scratchy, droning, muddy mess. Just wasn't cutting through at all. Adjusting the tone controls proved useless. Finally gave up and threw the 447s back in - and I immediately sounded awesome again (this was unanimously confirmed by my band mates). What the fecking fack?!

I really wanted to like these tubes, but last night was fairly definitive proof that I'm not just crazy or nitpicking. Still can't believe how utterly they failed in a live band setting. When I was playing by myself, they didn't seem quite that bad.

Stay tuned for those bias readings. Should have something after tonight.

Fwiw they are Sylvania 6CA7/EL34 relabeled as STR-416.

Maybe you got a bad or mismatched pair.
Those that I have sing. You get that EL34 chime BUT with more bottom end than any other EL34 I have ever tried.
In fact I didn't like any EL34's in my Simul until getting a pair of Sylvania 6CA7/EL34's aka STR-416's.

FWIW, my cheap offer still stands, providing good bias results. :wink:

gts said:

Maybe you got a bad or mismatched pair.

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Yeah, based on my experience thus far, I'm thinking that's a strong possibility. But who knows for sure until I get those bias readings.

JOEY B. said:

FWIW, my cheap offer still stands, providing good bias results. :wink:

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Sorry Joey. The seller I bought the 416s from is allowing me to return them for a full refund of $150, unless of course your cheap offer happens to surpass that amount. Also, my friend with the bias tester had to flake again. Now I gotta wait until the end of this week . *******. Hopefully I'll be able to get some readings soon before having to ship them back ... I know it'll eat away at me for the rest of eternity if I don't.

So, I made a VERY interesting observation today. I gave the 416s one last go, this time with my newly arrived Str-415s (woohoo!), and this time it actually sounded ... good. Really good. I had previously only heard the 416s with 440s and JJ 6L6s, but the 415s opened those 416s right up. No longer overly dark and muddy like before. That much-needed brightness and articulation is there now, and the result is a nice big crunchy sound. Still haven't heard the 415/416 setup in a full band setting, so I don't want to get too excited yet, but wow. I'm happy so far and it looks like I may be keeping them after all. Nice to finally hear what everyone else seems to be talking about.

I know everybody reading this is thinking "Well of course 416s sound best with 415s" - Both were made by the same manufacturer and both were intended for these amps, so it makes perfect sense. But what I don't understand is how my 416s sounded so bad with 440's and JJ 6L6s.

EDIT: I take all of this back. I posted this before doing any immediate side-by-side comparisons. Later on, I found that I still greatly preferred the 440s and 447s over the 415s and 416s. My ears were apparently not in their right mind that day...sometimes a difference in tone can be mistaken for an improvement in tone.

The JJ's are not optimal for a IIC+. Imho they suck in general in older amps.
If not mistaken, the build specs on JJ tubes don't match the specs older tubes were made to. So a JJ 6L6 is "not really" a 6L6.
I believe this 'difference of specs' to be true of most of their tubes regardless of type.

As for the 440's.... they are a cheap current day production Chinese tube. Not nearly the 'beef' of an older Sylvania STR-415.

You would have been much better off with a pair of "Winged C" (=C=) 6L6's in there.

Fwiw this is a decent reference to the source of Mesa's modern day tubes:
http://www.watfordvalves.com/products.asp?id=27&man=182

Btw did you try running it in just Class A with the 416's?

gts said:

Btw did you try running it in just Class A with the 416's?

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( As I tap the microphone...... "Hello, is this thing on?") $50 for the pair, and that's my final offer. :lol: :lol: :lol:

gts said:

The JJ's are not optimal for a IIC+. Imho they suck in general in older amps.
If not mistaken, the build specs on JJ tubes don't match the specs older tubes were made to. So a JJ 6L6 is "not really" a 6L6.
I believe this 'difference of specs' to be true of most of their tubes regardless of type.

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I'm not a JJ fan either, but this is news to me. Where did you learn this information? What specs?

And yes,
440 = Chinese
450 = Seimens/RFT
430 & 447 = Sovtek
415 & 416 = Sylvania
454 & 442 = Winged C
so, yeah...

Anyway, when I originally tested the 416s in class A with the 440s, they didn't sound all that great to me. Then later, I actually liked them with my new 415s, as stated in my last post. Now, once again, I'm not digging them so much. As of right now, the 416 in class A is sounding...well, alright. I guess. But the more I listen, the more I slightly prefer my 447s and 440s over my 416s and 415s. Seriously having some self doubt in my ability to judge tone at the moment. Ear hangover, maybe. No matter. The defining test will be how well the 415/416 rig will sound tonight in the mix during band practice.

And the bias meter will definitely be arriving tonight.

Are STR-425 made by Sovtek as well?

Macelind said:

Are STR-425 made by Sovtek as well?

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Follow the link I posted above and read!