Coliseum Mark II C/C+ production number research

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cadprof3

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Let’s try to figure out how many of each type were made. We might not be able to get an exact, for certain number, but I bet we can get a pretty **** good estimate as to how many of the 86 Cs and C+s were made of each type.

If we know that the serial numbers for the Mark IIC/C+ K series run from K337-K422, then all we would need to do is find out if there is a clean cutoff from Cs to C+s and at what number that occurs. Maybe there are crossover numbers where Cs was made after a C+s?

I bet we can, at the very least, get a decent starting idea of how many were made from what we have/who we know. It may not be exact, but we can get a ballpark number and tighten it up as info pops up. Ya never know, we might get lucky and find a magic cutoff number.

To start, we need:
The earliest Mark IIC+ K series serial number we can turn up
The latest Mark IIC K series serial number we can turn up

Let’s start here, from what I’ve seen on the board, the earliest C+ K series I found was K395, and the latest C was K355, so if there are a total of 86 Mark II C/C+s, we now know for sure that there are at least 27 C+ s, at least 18 Cs, leaving 41 in the question zone.

So now we need to know if anybody knows/has a C/C+ between the serial numbers K356-K394 to narrow it down further. Anyone want to help tighten these numbers up so we can get a better idea as to the production split?

If I’ve missed something, please chime in.
 
Personally i don't know if there is a split in the C/C+ Coliseum production like in the Normal IIC/IIC+ Amps (12,500-15000) as stated on the Boogie Files with the Pre IIC+ Production from i think 12300-12499. I thought it was just a IIC Coliseum which could be ordered with or without the "+". Correct me if i'm wrong.

Actually i think this thread could really help to answer this question. My C+ Coli is in the K4xx Range. GTS owns a IIC+ Coli with 5 digit Serial, which means there should be even more IIC/IIC+ Coliseum Amps out there. If there's a IIC above K395 this would also mean that there is no production split. Let's figure this out.
 
SpongeRob said:
K365 IIC Coliseum. Found on this board.
Very cool SpongeRob! Ever see a C+ with a lower serial number?
Maybe I'm wrong (definitely wouldn't be the first time), but I believe the C/C+ thing was a subtle production change rather than an option like the rest of the Mark IICs. Let's see if we turn up a low number C+ or a high number C. That should give us a better idea, or at least confuse me more than I already am. :)

I definitely read what you were saying about gts' 5 digit serial. Sounds like it might be an anomaly (a cool one) maybe they only had regular blank long chassis at the beginning/end of Mk IIC production (with Mk III tooling up) or maybe they simply ran out in the middle and used what was immediately available and put the jumbo transformers and cut the socket holes and made it. It does seem very unique and rare. Whatever it is, it's pretty cool. Was his a C or a C+? gts?

If I'm on track with this, SpongeRobs puts us at at least 28Cs, at least 27 C+s, 31 we gotta sees, and at least 1 anomaly (and my vote for rarest Boogie). :D
 
Elpelotero said:
K371 here
Hey Elpelotero!
I read about you having Ethel. Glad you chimed in! 8)
That narrows it down a bunch! Thanks!
That means, assuming this is something close to reality, that there are at least 28 Cs, at least 51 C+s, 7 we gotta sees, and 1 anamoly (I think one of the 7).

So we need info on K366 - K370.

*Interesting note K422-K337 = 85 units + 1 anomaly = 86 C/C+s. Seems to add up.
 
Hey, not a coli owner, but I'm pretty sure gts's coli was a KR IIC... he offered it for sale, or just was asking for a feeler if anyone wanted to buy it. from what I have read, the coli pkg was an upgrade, just like adding GEQ or reverb. I also think they stamped the serial # when the chassis was ready for the cabinet install, which would lead me to believe a 5 digit SN would have been an upgrade after the factory. So I don't believe the coli was a production change. back in the day, when you called boogie to order a mark series, you could have added it just like any other option... starting with mk IIB through the mk III.

scott
 
Yeah, reading the add, gts state it has a regular "IIC" 5 digit number. So this should be some kind of upgrade. My IIC+ Coli has a Mark III Plate on the back with a correct Serial Number and a "+" above the cord on the chassis. So this mean my was made in the era where Boogie already produce the Mark III Models. The hardware is still original. Hope this could help to get some infos about the IIC Coliseum Series.
 
zodiac272 said:
Hey, not a coli owner, but I'm pretty sure gts's coli was a KR IIC... he offered it for sale, or just was asking for a feeler if anyone wanted to buy it. from what I have read, the coli pkg was an upgrade, just like adding GEQ or reverb. I also think they stamped the serial # when the chassis was ready for the cabinet install, which would lead me to believe a 5 digit SN would have been an upgrade after the factory. So I don't believe the coli was a production change. back in the day, when you called boogie to order a mark series, you could have added it just like any other option... starting with mk IIB through the mk III.

scott

Hey scott,
Thanks for the info! I see what you’re saying about the serial numbers and stamping. Makes sense, but I don’t think they’d stamp them just before cab install. Instead of stamping the chassis when they put it in the cabinet, they likely affixed the adhesive backed metal plate w/serial # at the beginning when the chassis was assigned its specs and went into assembly. That would actually be one of the first things done in most manufacture settings to keep track of each order throughout production, especially in small companies that make stuff a la carte like Boogie. This way they knew to put SimulClass, EQ, reverb, etc. in the amp for a particular customer and be able to keep it straight through manufacture. If every amp was the same, you could slap the serial at the end and it wouldn’t make much of a difference.

Keep in mind that Boogie was a small company then and likely pre ordered the silkscreened adhesive backed metal plates from an outside vendor with a given range of numbers already stamped. Then, hopefully, in numerical order, they would assign a numbered plate to a customer order. It’d be too hard to stamp them after they were on the chassis and still keep track of the order or not dent the chassis. I could be wrong to any degree with Boogie specifically, but that’s how it’s usually done. That’s a lot of work & tooling investment for a, then, small company to do otherwise.

As for gts 5 digit serial number, they could have ran out of K series plates and used what they had until the vendor delivered the next order. Stuff happens. There are so many differences between a regular Mark and a Coliseum that I don’t think it likely, though certainly not impossible, that his is an upgrade. It’s not like an upgrade going from a C to a C+. There’s a lot of stuff that’s different. They’d basically be remanufacturing that thing. I could be wrong on that. Could be something completely different like a prototype, customer order change, etc. as well. Whatever happened, it’s rare, but that’s what makes it extra unique.

It also seems to fit the production numbers we’ve been given. K337-K422 = 85 units + gts’s amp =86 total. That's a bit of speculation of course.

As far as the “option” part. Yes, the Coliseum was offered as an ordering option but Boogie certainly considers it a completely different production model. They designated it completely differently (the K series) and giving it a completely different serial number series from the other production Marks. I look at their production terms this way; “Mark” is the family (branding) name, “I”, “II”, “III”, etc, refers to manufacture series under that family, “B”, “C”, “C+”, “Coliseum” are the models within the manufacture series. I think C+ would probably be closer a version than a model under this train of thought. Looks like the changes weren’t significant enough to justify calling it a “Mark IID”, but I digress… :)

To me, an “option” would be EQ, cabinetry, ½ power switch, reverb, etc. The Coliseums have a different power section, monster transformer, ***’t boards, and the chassis, though it probably starts the exactly same as the regular long Mk IIs, is processed differently during manufacture (at least enough to accommodate the 2 extra 6L6s & tranny).

That being said, there are also enough similarities and shared parts (preamp, faceplate, cabinet, etc), that I could certainly see someone considering it to be an option. We are talking about Mark amps, so I guess it would depend on how you look at it.
 
SpongeRob said:
Personally i don't know if there is a split in the C/C+ Coliseum production like in the Normal IIC/IIC+ Amps (12,500-15000) as stated on the Boogie Files with the Pre IIC+ Production from i think 12300-12499. I thought it was just a IIC Coliseum which could be ordered with or without the "+". Correct me if i'm wrong.

Actually i think this thread could really help to answer this question. My C+ Coli is in the K4xx Range. GTS owns a IIC+ Coli with 5 digit Serial, which means there should be even more IIC/IIC+ Coliseum Amps out there. If there's a IIC above K395 this would also mean that there is no production split. Let's figure this out.
Hey SpongeRob,
So far, I don't think we've seen a high number C. You having a K4XX with the MkIII plate makes sense for a small manufacturer like Boogie. They were probably at a transition point in product (see my rant on metal # plates in my last post).

I really think gts's is a production anomoly of some sort like I said in the last post. To me, his fits in with the production numbers we've been told (86).

Let's keep our eyes open and see if any other unique ones pop up. If we saw another 2 like the one gts has (5 digit), I'd seriously rethink my opinion as to how many were made.

To gts: I hope it's cool that we're discussing your very unique amp like this. If not, I apologise.
 
did you see these?


http://homepage.mac.com/mesaboogie/welcome.html
http://homepage.mac.com/mesaboogie/serials.html

might help a little

scott
 
zodiac272 said:
did you see these?


http://homepage.mac.com/mesaboogie/welcome.html
http://homepage.mac.com/mesaboogie/serials.html

might help a little

scott

Hey scott,
I did. That's where I first read the K series C/C+ serials being from K337-K422. When I got mine a few years back, that was where I found the info confirming it was a C+. Awesome info.

Was there something in particular there I might have missed or you think might be helpful?
Thanks!
 
zodiac272 said:
no, just in case you missed those pages...

scott
Thanks scott. I actually went over it a little bit again after you mentioned it. It's still a good read! :)
 
LPClassic said:
I don't know if this helps given the numbers already there but mine is K359 and is a IIC.
Hey LPClassic,
Totally helps! 8)
The more confirmation we get that this thought track is correct in figuring out the numbers, the better. Thanks!
 
gts said:
cadprof3
With all things Boogie back when the Coli's were being made and in their early days as a whole (the first 10+ years) nothing was normal.
If I remember correctly the serial number was stamped onto the chassis early in the process.
If say for some reason the buyer bailed out that stamped chassis would be used for whatever amp was next on the production line.
According to Mike B. there are likely 40-50 five digit serial numbered IIC/C+ Coli's out there.
He also estimates there are 40-50 five digit serial numbered MKIII Colis' out there too.
So while my 5 digit IIC Coli is not common, it's likely not alone.

Ian's website gathered much of (if not all) it's serial info from another Mesa users website (pretty sure that website is now gone).
Here's another Coli serial number anomaly.
On Ian's website it states the MKIII Coli numbers are from K423 to K500.
But I have seen a Mark III Coli with the serial number K535!

Mesa anomalies while not the norm have been seen more than a few times.

Fwiw Mesa wasted/ threw out nothing. So you'll see IIC faceplates on some IIC+'s
But perhaps even more odd we've seen a IIC+ faceplate on a IIC!

We've also seen four or so IIC+'s with serial numbers below 12500. I personally know of 12,399, 12400 and couple with 123xx numbers.
And I'm pretty sure no one has see a IIC+ serial number above 14400 (except Ian's which is 15000)

In any case back to the IIC/ IIC+ Coli's and production number research.
Coli's don't pop up too often so trying to track down each and every one could take a lifetime. And even then all may not be found.
Mesa didn't keep great records back then. Even they don't even know the exact numbers and/ or to whom they sold each amp.
Pretty sure they didn't start keeping decent records until around '90-'91.

But keep looking it would be fun to find them all (that's kind of why I started that other poll / thread on the Coli's.)

Hey gts,
That’s super useful info. I figured crazy stuff like that happened during manufacture at Boogie in the early days. I assumed Mesa would have “anomalies” just like you said. Thanks for confirming and clarifying the degree.

This info you’re giving is exactly why I wanted to start this thread. I really dig tracking stuff down to find out details like this (usually it’s not amps). Small manufacturing history/process is also kinda interesting to me.

I didn’t really plan on tracking down every coliseum C/C+, I was just trying to find the change over point from C to C+in K series serial numbers to see if I could figure out how many of the "86" were of each type. The 5 digit definitely adds another wrinkle to it.

That poll/thread you created is what finally pulled me into posting on the Boogie Board. Thanks again!
 
fun thread-I have always wondered,too
-pulled this from Ed (Boogiebabies) on a 5 page thread here on the board regarding Coli's and the number "86":

"Their might be even fewer. Mesa was screwy with the serial numbers back then.
Like the IIC+, there are around 1900, not 2500 just because there is one at 15,000.
A member of this forum has the latest serial number I have ever seen at 14,36X dated 4/85.
Of all the amps we scour around here I've seen maybe 7-8 Coli IIC's/+'s accounted for.
IMHO, the Princeton Boogie's and the Coli IIC-IIC+ are in rarified air."

my serial number is close to Elpel's,btw......I don't know it off the top of my head...shame on me!
 

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