''Chasing holy grails-debunking the myth''

Hi it's bad boy of the forum bartchamdoh here for another discusion/argument .Over the years in my quest for the perfect strat tone i,ve played or owned most of the mesa holy grails pre 500 rectos,studio pre amps,mark 2c,mark 4,as well as trying other brands such as Engl,Bogner,Cornford.The mesa's are my fave, mark 2s/3s but though they can be tweaked to give world class tones either clean or overdriven they lack versatility(shared gain and eq controls,poor reverb,fx loops etc.)This is a case of bad design and is a real pity because the tone of these amps is phenomenal.I look for a good high gain amp with a good clean channel with lots of head room so that i can put some good quality pedal's up front with over engineerd transformers and speakers that will handle all the gain i'm throwing up front and these amps tick all the right boxes.My gripe is that if you say put a .50 caliber up against a mark 3/4/5 you will hear a difference.NOT SO IF YOU PUT PEDALS UP FRONT THROUGH THE CLEAN CHANNEL!!! then the differences will be subtle and hard to tell without a/b ing which is what everyone including most of the members on this board does.That's why after all these years my main gigging rig is my trusty mark 2b srgx short head or mark 3 super sixty short head into a 2x12 mesa cab with my pedal board loaded up front.So my advice...forget the mark 2c+'s mark 5's,pre 500 rec's...get a descent budget mesa with some good pedals up front and you'll get a better tone,more versatility for less money and hassle...why are all the mesa 2c+ mark 5 etc owners doing the same...awnser same reason but there out of pocket lol.

You only left out three little words: "In My Opinion".
In my experience, the 50+ Caliber is an excellent amp, BUT - the chassis is a cheaper, thinner stamping which lends itself to microphonic tube problems, and the internal reverb tank is, shall we say, severely budget-oriented and prone to malfunctions.
The first time you plug into a 50+ Cal. you are impressed with how close it gets to a real Mark sound for its price and simplicity. But go back to the real thing after a week and the differences become clear. The real thing is just more harmonically complex. The 50+ will sound much more compressed, which at first translates into ease of playing, but quickly becomes a lack of dynamics and a limitation on expressive phrasing.
That said, if I was a beginner on a budget and played metal, I'd much prefer a 50+ Cal. with the GEQ over a Recto.
Thank God for the many folks chasing their Holy Grail. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to buy their rejects so cheap! Keep chasing. I'll wait.
It's a good thing

Sounds like you'd enjoy a modeler. I myself like to have both. Playing live or recording with a digital modeler is super easy and I can have about any sound I want at a press of a button. But my fave is still plugging straight into my Mark IV.

Agreed mr mark 3(imo)and i'm using a bb pre amp and suhr riot up front,moddlers suck...imo lol.

bartchamdoh said:

moddlers suck...imo lol.

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Imo, running distortion pedals in front of an amps clean channel is worse. Learn how to play better and you will be able to use your amp's lead channel instead of relying on digital saturation. imo

Did we not learn for the last post from Bart Simpson aka "thegaindeli" blah blah blah.

oooh..Gaind-li..sshhhhhhh!!!nooooooooooooo!!!!!!(afraid that if we actually mutter the name, he may return..) :evil:
-hasn't this been drubbed over ad nauseum through the years? try the search function out,... it gets old rehashing this stuff!
-judging by the appreciative value of the C+, ol' Bart is in the minority 8)

use your ears and your fingers the pedals are better than the amps lead channel imo.

I like line 6 too.

bartchamdoh said:

use your ears and your fingers the pedals are better than the amps lead channel imo.

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And you're telling us to use our ears :lol:

Don't feed the troll.

I'm debunking the myth,the pedals are better than a boogie's lead channel...try then buy!

bartchamdoh said:

I'm debunking the myth,the pedals are better than a boogie's lead channel...try then buy!

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Fact is, it's just your opinion. Maybe you should sell ALL your Boogie gear to someone who actually appreciates it for what it is, TONE!! Sounds like you would be happier with something solid state. You aren't worthy. Don't compare a .50 cal to ANY MARK, especially a COLI, you will be chewed up and spit out. And that is MY opinion. My advice? Don't take any advice from a troll.

You say: The mesa's are my fave, mark 2s/3s but though they can be tweaked to give world class tones either clean or overdriven they lack versatility(shared gain and eq controls,poor reverb,fx loops etc.)

Easy fix: Send your favorite Mark III to your amp tech and ask him to do the Volume 2 mod.
It costs $50, if you send it to Petaluma.
However, you can find the mod posted somewhere in the Internet if you want to do it by yourself.
Now you will have world class clean tones AND overdriven tones.

Hey 6l6 i'm not saying mesa's are crap...have you read this thread?

Really, stop feeding the troll.

Move along people, nothing to see here ....LOL :lol:

Im curious what myth are you trying to debunk exactly?

And yes I read the whole thread, you don't really say what myth your referring to.

Vogelsong said:

Im curious what myth are you trying to debunk exactly?

And yes I read the whole thread, you don't really say what myth your referring to.

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The myth that says because his ear isn't fully developed that everyone must agree that a Mark IIC+ isn't up to snuff with a MT-2 into a clean amp. But then he states that "modelers suck" because he wants to act like a cork sniffer but drink Bartles & James.

I went through the pedal thing for a while. However, the reasons were simple. I was either ...

A) Playing through cheap amps that had no tone.

B) Playing through single channel amps that were one trick ponies, sure they had awesome cleans, and good breakup if the wife and kids weren't home and I could play them at the volume that made my ears blead.

And finally C) I was going for someone elses tone that required it.

Now when I wanted my own sound the pedals went by by. The cheap amps? By. The one trick pony? Well that's my Paps Bandmaster it ain't going anywhere, but it doesn't leave the house either. So I needed a quality piece of hardware that had good tone all around and I wouldn't have to invest another few hundred bucks in pedals.

For me a bunch of pedals is a headache, it was always if you adjust one you end up tweeking them all, what a pain in the ***.

So I bought a Mesa and havn't looked back, best amp on the planet; for the money they can't be beat. My board consistes of the Mesa LSS foot pedals for channels and reverb, a boomerang chorus delay combo and thats it. Simple, easy and it sounds awesome.

I did the pot mod on the LSS, and added a third foot switch to my channel switcher. I now have 3 channels at the tap of my foot and couldn't be happier.

IMO pedals are a headache, and my Mesa tone is much better off without them.

Thats just me.