Volume issues... Help?

Hi there,

I currently am using an early-edition (no stripe, larger transformer) Mk III head, which was re-tubed with 6L6s and EL34s within the last 6 months.

When I get a really great distorted tone dialed in, it's not loud enough to be heard over the drummer. How can I get the distorted sound I crave and get the durn thing to be loud enough? When I try to boost the volume by altering any of the volume knobs, the tone degrades. I've tried it in both modes, Class A and SimulClass... same issue.

Any advice helpful... I probably don't quite have a good understanding of what knob does what in the signal chain...

Additionally, I have difficulty getting the lead channel volume to balance with the clean channel--most often the clean channel is much, much louder than the lead channel, which can cause a nasty surprise for the soundman.

thanks!

melne

What are your settings? Are you positive it's simul class and can run el34s in the outer sockets? Does it have graphic eq? What is your speaker setup and are you matching impedences?

The volume difference between the two channels is normal for the mark III

For a live mix you may need to raise the 750 Hz slider and increase the Presence until you can be heard and not get lost in cymbals.
Class A cuts the wattage to 15W so that's not going to help anyway.

The only thing that I can think of is that the distorted tone you like so much is mostly pre-amp gain that you're getting at low volumes while running the gain up. Then when you turn up the amp, the power tubes are coloring the tone more. This might cause you to loose some of that pre-amp sizzle. As you are discovering, pre-amp tube distortion sounds quite different from power tube distortion.



Post the settings you use to get the tone you want at lower volumes. I have a feeling you're in the Lead Channel with the gain up around 7 or higher.

I have an early no stripe combo Simulclass. I had to play with the darn thing for some time before I realized the pedals add to the control (the reverb is real ineresting once you use the pedal - reverb never off just normal or wet). But I am still learning with this thing. As you have heard, settings which work for one stripe (black/red/blue/green etc) III usually don't cross over to another stripe. You probably already know that the type of preamp tubes used in V1, V3, & V5 can make a difference. And, if the power tubes are in good shape (though I have also found running certain FX pedals through the loop can shorten power tube life as well as many other factors) and your tech has given it his/her "it's as good as it gets" blessing then you may want to get the clean channel dialed in first. Next dial in just the solo tone. Now, step back about 20 feet or more and have someone else (maybe some sound proof headphones :wink: to protect their hearing might be wise) stand at the controls. Switch to clean and note the gain as compared to the lead when you switch back and forth. Roll off the Volume just slightly in clean (I am actually referring to Rythym 1) Bring up the Lead Master just a touch. Now check the difference again. Here is where you can also start adjusting 'ever so slightly" the Master and Lead Volume to compensate for tone and gain as you move forward. As you switch back and forth for gain balance between the R1 and Lead use the EQ pedal to go back and forth between any tonal adjustments you make to the pot EQ and slider EQ controls as well. You may want to not just do this for several hours but several hours over several days and have a paper and pen handy as your helper shouts out the settings. I'll try to get three settings I like. Once I am in a true stage environment I'll do a dry run with all three, pick the one that sounds the best in the environment, fine tune it, then work with the sound person to see what works for the both of us. I know this may seem like no "dial this here" help, but these darn Marks have quite a personality. And according to history even one Mark III "whatever" stripe can sound slightly different then another of the same due to how Randy and Mike did their "final tests" and any slight component tweaking. :shock:

I am certain you will get this to work out.

Dennis

Ooh. Lotta questions here.

@ all:

Settings:
knobs L-R marked with p if knob is pulled out.

Knob order:
Vol - Tr - Bs - Mid - Mast - LD - LM
7p - 8p - 2p - 3 - 3p - 7 - 3p

EQ set in "classic V" config.

Presence... 3
Reverb... 5


@boatwright
Yes, it's Simul-Class, and is running EL34s in the outer sockets, 6L6s in the inner, all tubes "Boogie" branded.
Yes on the EQ
Yes on the matched impedance of spkrs: 1-8ohm cabinet plugged into 8-ohm output.


@Marcus

I think you're on to something... I set the Ld Drive at 7... Preamp vs. poweramp gain... Sorry to be a dope, but can you point me to a place where I can learn to better understand the difference and how to address each of these gains?

@jpdennis

I'm new to this amp, too. It adds enough additional settings from the Mk IIB I was using that I'm having difficulty nailing down something that works.
Thank you for your detailed answer. I will try some of these suggestions.
I do have all the original footswitches that came with it, but haven't yet added the Rhy1/Rhy2 or EQ/REV footswitch into the fray. I've been using my Mk II Lead/Rhy footswitch to swap channels.

Thanks for your insight, I'm afraid I'm not an electronics-whiz, and having difficulty understanding that stuff, so for all the years I've been playing... I'm a real "dummy" when it comes to "how it works". (hangs head in shame). But now I need to solve this problem, as our gig season is ramping up.

Thanks fellas!

melne

melne said:

...but haven't yet added the Rhy1/Rhy2 or EQ/REV footswitch into the fray ...

Click to expand...

Just put in the EQ/Reverb using a stereo 1/4 cord. Set the reverb to 8. Set EQ to V as suggested. Tap the reverb footswitch until you hear the difference then season to your liking. The Reverb is always on with the Mark III. When the reverb switch kicks in the reverb can become extremely "hot" for special needs like cave solos and the like. If you do not use the pedal the reverb seems to be a little "lacking". To really "get" the reverb you will need the pedal engaged.

Dennis

melne said:

Settings:
knobs L-R marked with p if knob is pulled out.

Knob order:
Vol - Tr - Bs - Mid - Mast - LD - LM
7p - 8p - 2p - 3 - 3p - 7 - 3p

EQ set in "classic V" config.

Presence... 3
Reverb... 5

Click to expand...

I'd bump the Lead Master up a bit and not use the Volume Pull Bright or the Lead Master Pull Bright.
You're using all the Pull Bright switches. Do you have a particularly dark sounding guitar?
Boogiebabies is right - the 750 slider can really bury you in the mix, or bring you up front. The "Classic V" sounds much better in the bedroom than on stage.
As you increase the Masters, you should reduce the Lead gain as the power tubes start to cook. Otherwise it's Mud City.

Here's a handy dandy settings chart:
http://www.chain-metal.nl/mark3/?bg=0&d1=80&p1=1&d2=40&p2=1&d3=0&p3=1&d4=30&p4=1&d5=30&d6=50&d7=30&p7=1&p=40&g1=75&g2=60&g3=25&g4=60&g5=65&t=Customized+Marshall
(This is what the Mark III manual refers to as the "Customized Marshall" sound. )

What MrMarkIII wrote.

and....I think your Lead Master is too low.

Try this. Put the Lead Drive on about 4 or 5. Or back it off just to the point where it looses a bit of fuzz. Then run the Lead Master up to about 6 or 7. See how that tone feels. Now add back more Lead Drive to get some more distortion and sustain. Then adjust Master volume for overall loudness.

I can tell you that it's not going to sound the same as you like it. Well I doubt it anyway. It's frustrating I know. But the bedroom volume settings cannot be duplicated at loud volumes most of the time and even if you could, it would get lost in the mix....this is why you can't hear it over the drummer now.

As also advised, be careful with the middle slider. You scoop that out too much and you're buried. Most people don't know this, but many, many famous lead tones actually had a mid boost. Just for fun, adjust your GEQ for a slight frown...or basically reverse of where you have it now. Only don't exaggerate the curve too much. Try setting the middle slider just above the mid line and the other 4 to taste but lower than the mid.

Of course, play with the knob pulls too because that plays a huge role.

I know what you're struggling with. Having a scooped mid, heavily compressed tone makes the guitar feel easier to play. Been there. But it also hides really sloppy playing too. It works in a studio or in your bedroom but that's about it. I remember the first time I tried to play with a drummer and used a tone like that. I thought there was something wrong with the amp.

Someone that was in the "know" told me to back off the gain and add more mids. I did it. It wasn't the tone I was used to, but it was the tone I needed to play. After a while my ears got used to it and eventually preferred it. Then I became a tone snob. :lol:

If for some reason you cannot get the amount of cream you need at high volumes, just add an overdrive/distortion pedal and that should do it. But you will probably want to run the drive high and the gain low to mid. Just look up stuff on Tubescreamers. Same idea.

What Marcus71 said.
It's been awhile since I played a loud gig (we call the drummer the "Thunder god"), but, yes, yes, yes, I can't tell you how surprising it was to realize the stupid Graphic EQ actually works better for solos with a slight mid boost, not a scoop. We're talking about just above the line to start, nothing too drastic; otherwise you venture into Michael-Schenker-stuck-wah land (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Thanks guys, I'll try some of this at my next rehearsal.

melne

Knob order:
Vol - Tr - Bs - Mid - Mast - LD - LM
7p - 8p - 2p - 3 - 3p - 7 - 3p


Raise Volume 1 to 8-9 (push in the pot)
Push in the Bass pot (unless you are using single coil pickups)
Raise the mid control to at least 5
Lower the Lead Drive to 5-6
Use the Lead Master to Balance the channel volumes (assuming that you like the clean channel at 3 on the Master)
Use the EQ AUTO function to shape the Lead channel independently from the clean channel.

If you like your cleans "squeaky", you might have to lower the guitar volume pot slightly with these settings. Low Volume1 and extremely low Master settings will make the Mark II,III sound thin and weak, in my opinion. I find it much easier to vary the input signal with the guitar volume knob, rather than reach around to the amp.